Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[GringoD]

I'm leading one of those 3/10 guilds. We're on an RP server, so the players aren't the best, but we keep it going.

Frankly, I'm okay with mythic raids being hard. What I'm not okay with is them being solely focused around top performing teams for the entirety of the tier. I have parents and shift workers on mine, we just can't afford the same throughput. The AP requirements are just part of that.

I think it's not the main problem though. It's mid expansion tiers in general. They feel pointless. My raid fought their way through end of tier bosses like Blackfuse and Xul'horac, but stuff like Cenarius or Hans&Franz got us blocked no matter how hard we try (and we do). We're not slowly progressing upwards, we're roadblocked until the next tier comes around.

I don't get why raids like ours are damned to grind to a halt at points like these. I hate that the tiers since Cataclysm are tuned around split pushing elitists. I couldn't care less about the race, about hardcore progression guilds and their 4 weeks of fun a year. I care about the people in my raid I've stuck with for 8 years, the 2000~ guilds that are senselessly stuck at this point because of tuning.
To know that there is a good chance this tier is over for a good chunk of them and even us at 3/10m until Tomb comes out is incredibly disheartening. That's just not what a progression curve is supposed to look like.

[stolker]

There are 4 difficulties now and bottom tier shitters still complain that something is actually hard and they are not guaranteed cutting edge before next raid. People should just accept that they don't have what it takes. And now don't come with 'muhh 54 traits'. Even at 54 traits and average ilvl 915 half the shitters complaining in this thread will not kill Gul Dan before 7.2.

[Cazz17]

Mythic isn't meant to be cleared by everyone, hence why it is hard. Where do you think it should have been tuned? Say 44 traits, then those at 54 would have it easier. Say lower, same applies. They had to make it hard enough to compensate for the people that are grinding out things that offer +15% damage etc. or they would face roll the place

[GringoD]

There are 4 difficulties now and bottom tier shitters still complain that something is actually hard and they are not guaranteed cutting edge before next raid.

This thread isn't about cutting edge / Gul'dan though.

[Saybel]

We killed Krosus Mythic yesterday with 5 DPS not at 54 traits, they were at - 53, 50, 48, 47 and 43 respectively. I doubt having them all at 54 would have made us kill the boss any sooner then 5-6 pulls (and only because we had a 2% pull that could have been a kill). I doubt most serious mythic guilds are in the scenario where literally every single one of their raiders are at like 54 traits but the kill we got was not really RNG reliant, it was basically just a clean pull.

Take the information as you want, but at least until Augur (where the majority of people aren't at) having clean fights is way more important then doing 2% more damage.

We have a rule in our guild - don't cry about DPS unless we are wiping to (soft)enrage. Once you hit enrage start systematically looking at people who are doing low DPS and why.

[Halobob87]

Why don't you go do a dungeon for the 100th, 200th time and see how that goes. Mythic+ is not an "absurd amount of content", its not new content.

NH tuning is not fine and people have shown stats for it, you're completed deluded.

Yeah, nice data: x guilds are stuck at 3/10 ... so? Again, M is not meant for every one , if u are stuck at 3/10 is becouse you probably have a good amount of "meh" players. And no, bosses like krosus ecc are not tuned for 54th traits, so, even with a 45-50~ avarage artifact level team u can easly do 7/10M if your raid group is good. Only augur , elisande and gul'dan are tuned for 54th traits.
Not every random joe "wannabe mythic raider" should be able to clear mythic (rigth EN?), couse, again, mythic is not meant for everyone.

Wait for teh nerfs and stop qqing.

[RyanEX]

Mythic is for those that put in the effort and the hardcore. You don't have to be uber, offline is for wimps, hardcore to have 54 traits by now. So, no, I don't think it's a problem.

[Deleted]

The gear you get in one week of hc 10/10 and 3/10MM easily does more DPS than the last 7-10 traits (~7% DPS). If guilds are stuck is because they dont know how to handle mechanics right while doing DPS and have too much bags on their team. Also, other than Krosus, Bosses dont have a tight enrage, not even near. Alluriel can be done with FIVE healers without hitting enrage. Botanist only has a soft enrage on P3 (suiciding people on call of the night). Tichondrius can be done with 3 healers cheesing the brands making the dps requirement a joke. Augur is all about handling mechanics while you do a decent DPS. Cant speak for elisande or guldan since i dont know the encounters, but i am pretty sure that there are not "super high dps reqs" since guilds are using alt rogues with 35 traits to soak souls on Gul'dan, even when Gul'dan is already a 16 minute fight.

[Deleted]

It is clearly overtuned and balanced around the indirect nerfs coming in the form of new traits in 7.2.

[Deleted]

The gear you get in one week of hc 10/10 and 3/10MM easily does more DPS than the last 7-10 traits (~7% DPS). If guilds are stuck is because they dont know how to handle mechanics right while doing DPS and have too much bags on their team. Also, other than Krosus, Bosses dont have a tight enrage, not even near. Alluriel can be done with FIVE healers without hitting enrage. Botanist only has a soft enrage on P3 (suiciding people on call of the night). Tichondrius can be done with 3 healers cheesing the brands making the dps requirement a joke. Augur is all about handling mechanics while you do a decent DPS. Cant speak for elisande or guldan since i dont know the encounters, but i am pretty sure that there are not "super high dps reqs" since guilds are using alt rogues with 35 traits to soak souls on Gul'dan, even when Gul'dan is already a 16 minute fight.

seems you are very skilled in watching videos wrong.

[Grimreaper]

I don't find it to be a problem.

There are always "choke points" in progression. Some bosses just evolve to be harder than others. I am always reminded of hard mode "firestarter" in Uld. Now that was a "choke point."

As for the 54 traits..... I would be stunned if someone raiding mythic NH did not have the 54 traits. I have 46 on my current main and i haven't even been grinding it at all. I run dungeons, raids and just do the daily cache. I haven't farmed it. This is also my second main, I switched off my first main (a mage) because we needed a tank, or i would have 54 as well.

Dont have time to do daily caches, m+ or off-day raids. Got 44 traits so far, stuck on 3/10 mythic NH.

Yes, yes, i'm bad and dont deserve to progress etc etc...

[Halobob87]

The gear you get in one week of hc 10/10 and 3/10MM easily does more DPS than the last 7-10 traits (~7% DPS). If guilds are stuck is because they dont know how to handle mechanics right while doing DPS and have too much bags on their team. Also, other than Krosus, Bosses dont have a tight enrage, not even near. Alluriel can be done with FIVE healers without hitting enrage. Botanist only has a soft enrage on P3 (suiciding people on call of the night). Tichondrius can be done with 3 healers cheesing the brands making the dps requirement a joke. Augur is all about handling mechanics while you do a decent DPS. Cant speak for elisande or guldan since i dont know the encounters, but i am pretty sure that there are not "super high dps reqs" since guilds are using alt rogues with 35 traits to soak souls on Gul'dan, even when Gul'dan is already a 16 minute fight.

Augur dps check is way harder then krosus one, same for elisande.

- - - Updated - - -

It is clearly overtuned and balanced around the indirect nerfs coming in the form of new traits in 7.2.

Lol nope, stop with this bullshit. 6/7 M kills are not hard at all to achiv.

[DakonBlackblade]

While I generally have a hard time taking posts with that horrible spelling serious - 20 pull endbosses for what's supposed to be the hardest content available isn't perfect. You might just as well leave it at heroic if that's your target group.

How many other languages do you speak ? Cause English isn't my first and I speak other 2 so if your answer isn't 4 you should just shut up. And I liked how you plucked 1 passage out of my answer (which is perfectly understandable and readable regardless of spelling mistakes that weren't even that many - most of which were obviously typos) and completely missed the point, it was one of the most remarkable displays of someone not getting what was being said at all. Despite you missing the point Ill indulge you a bit, Xavius was undertuned, everyone admitted it, the rest of EN has nothing to do with it tough, it's 1 boss. And no you shouldn't leave it at heroic cause ppl who are "heroic tier" don't ever even get to see mythic Xavius. The ppl mythic is target at is the massive amount of players that stomp heroic and that find it super boring and need something else to challenge them, this group is not this mass of high skilled players with too much time in their hands that clear content in 1 week, there is a wide spectrum of skill and time investment here and only 1 arbitrarily defined mythic difficulty that right now is frustrating mid tiers guild and tiring elite ones, it is serving absolutely no purpose.

Gosh I hope you got the point now, you have to be a pro to miss it entirely again.

[cFortyfive]

the rest of EN has nothing to do with it tough

I am sorry but it wasn't fine either.

The ppl mythic is target at is the massive amount of players that stomp heroic

Since the very first inception of heroic mode you had players who could handle normal perfectly fine but didn't go anywhere in heroic. They might have made it to a handful bosses and that's about it. Your point is absolutely irrelevant.

[DakonBlackblade]

I am sorry but it wasn't fine either.

Since the very first inception of heroic mode you had players who could handle normal perfectly fine but didn't go anywhere in heroic. They might have made it to a handful bosses and that's about it. Your point is absolutely irrelevant.

Original heroic is current mythic you know right ? And no its not irrelevant it is the only relevant point actually, if mythic isn't for the ppl that easily clear heroic it is for who them ? Cause even Blizz admits it is not for the world first raiders, and those guys are getting burned out, and if its not for the guys clearing heroic easily and getting stuck at Krosus, Augur and whatnot, who are all feeling frustrated and getting disheartned, that leaves us with some 30-50 guilds that exist in the area between the super elite and the massive amount of other mythic guilds. I'm pretty sure that’s not all the ppl Blizz is aiming the content for, it seens super exclusive if it is.

[araine]

no you can make a serious case for Emerald Nightmare being undertuned by a lot but since it was the 1st raid in the expansion we can cut them some slack, looks like they got it right after the 3 loot pinatas on the lower floor, Biiiiig kudos to blizzard and the tuning team for getting it right.

[Deleted]

People also need to remember for AP doing 50 Dungeons in January = 500 Dungeons in October/Early November. Some people burnt earnt a lot earlier.

Skorp + Chrono I thought were perfect for Boss1+2, the problem is Trilliax, it's easier than Chrono and leaves a large jump to Krosus/Aluriel/Botanist/Tich.

If Trilliax's add had come out IMMEDIATELY and made you deal with 2 adds rather than completely skipping second maybe they could have made it an enrage check.

[Deleted]

Encounters are designed around DPS/HPS values. It doesnt matter how you acquire the necessary values. Sure, you can farm AP and/or gear. But you can also improve your gameplay, controllings and UI (in 90% of all cases its an L2P issue). Sometimes an improved raid coordination conjures miracles (for example: it makes no sense to stack endless AoE classes on cost of "boss-tunnel-dps").

[cFortyfive]

Original heroic is current mythic you know right ? And no its not irrelevant it is the only relevant point actually, if mythic isn't for the ppl that easily clear heroic it is for who them ?

I know it's hard to comprehend but not everyone who clears heroic can clear mythic or make significant progress in mythic. Or former normal and heroic. Has never been that way and doesn't need to be that way as again you might as well just leave it at current heroic difficulty.

[darkest4]

The only people who cried about EN being undertuned were the very top guilds, half of which are no longer raiding hardcore anymore due to Nighthold being too hardcore. See any irony there? EN was fine outside of Xavius which was a joke. Blizz is tuning raids around the 1% that keeps getting smaller every patch, seems like a great use of resources.

This. The elitist attitudes on this forum are frankly pathetic, selfish and juvenile. Blizz spends a lot of time and resources creating and balancing mythic raiding. It's not going to be worth it to them if this trend continues where only 1% or less have any chance of ever completing the mythic raid before disbanding/burning out. Elitists whining about "game too ez" anytime anyone asks for reasonable nerfs are going to kill the raiding scene. Much of M NH is way too hard in terms of tuned around 54 traits, bis legendaries on most your dps, ilvl900+, 600~k+ dps etc for most bosses krosus and up. Blizz balancing around these top 100~ in the world guilds, while there's thousands of guilds who can easily clear H NH within 1-2 weeks of release but are going to be stuck long enough to burn out at anything past 3/10 M NH, and that's a whole lot of players whose subs blizz are probably throwing away to appease a few hundred/few thousand elitist players, when they could still appease them while appeasing everyone else too if they took a different approach.

It should be this hard at release, to make for an exciting world first race. This world first race should give unique, better rewards to make it worth it for top raiders. For example, the top 20 or whatever guilds to kill guldan could get unique mounts and what not (no other way to get them, so they are exceptionally rare) that they could sell to other players for a hefty amount of wow tokens, or keep for themselves. At least then they're getting something for their extra effort. And during this "world first race" difficulty maybe all bosses drop an extra piece of gear or 2, bonus gold and extra AP or something, so there's some incentive too for those not quite in the top 20~. Then once the race is over, and unique rewards are handed out (lets say 3 weeks~ after M NH release) nerf mythic so it's still a challenge (lets say, somewhere between M EN difficulty and current M NH difficulty) without being utterly ridiculous and tuned around 54/ mostly bis legendaries/ilvl900+ like it is now.

Right now, almost every mythic guild on my server is dying or experiencing huge turnover, most stuck 3-5/10 M. My own guild, 4/10 M has had several our best players quit the game (not the guild, the game) every week for the last few weeks. People are just sick of wiping on spellblade and what not for weeks on end, when it's not even close to the last boss even. I've been clearing the hardest difficulties since TBC, and never seen such burnout on only the first tier of raiding. And then its so hard to replace people now, because recruits need to have 54 traits, decent legendaries and decent ilvl (ilvl the easiest to fix but still you only have so much gear per week to pass out so it takes a while) to not just be a burden. Finding decent recruits with all these requirements is extremely hard when you're not on some top raiding server. And people who are burnt out on their spec can't realistically reroll a new spec/class quickly either because of the AP/legendary grind. So it feels like every time you lose someone you are taking a big step back in progress, meaning you get even more stuck at this wall past 3/10 M.

And the time investment vs reward is just utterly whack, you are spending dozens of hours on some bosses just for like a 1/5th chance individually of getting mediocre or better gear (by time you kill mythic boss your total ilvl almost matches what drops). And this is after the required xxx hours spent grinding getting 54 traits, decent legendaries and 900ilvl just to have any chance in most of M NH. I can't think of any other game with such bad reward vs time investment on its hard content.