[Megathread] Mass Effect Andromeda

[Witchblade77]

huh... so.... this is an interesting little plothole. on one hand - having quarians come along makes sense on many levels. they know how to live on ships, and they do want a home. on the other hand... not once it gets mentioned by the conclave? not once does Tali bring it up? Shepard knows about the initiative, obviously and I would think Tali would as well, but... fleet having fewer people due to colonists splitting of would kinda be a big deal, no? I know that quarians don't really like to talk to outsiders, but it seems like Shepard is very much a different story due to connection to Tali. I'm curious to see if they just never mention it or actualy bother to bring it up. given precedent - I'm guessing it will be one of those "it has always been this way, what do you mean something is different" things

[zealo]

huh... so.... this is an interesting little plothole. on one hand - having quarians come along makes sense on many levels. they know how to live on ships, and they do want a home. on the other hand... not once it gets mentioned by the conclave? not once does Tali bring it up? Shepard knows about the initiative, obviously and I would think Tali would as well, but... fleet having fewer people due to colonists splitting of would kinda be a big deal, no? I know that quarians don't really like to talk to outsiders, but it seems like Shepard is very much a different story due to connection to Tali. I'm curious to see if they just never mention it or actualy bother to bring it up. given precedent - I'm guessing it will be one of those "it has always been this way, what do you mean something is different" things

Curious timing if there's any significant amount of Quarians around, in the time frame of departure given they were preparing for invading the Geth in the lore.

[Witchblade77]

Curious timing if there's any significant amount of Quarians around, in the time frame of departure given they were preparing for invading the Geth in the lore.

indeed indeed. i mean.. I could see why some of the younger especially quarians would want to just skedadle the hell out of there rather then involve themselves in a war for a world they only know about from stories. and yet... I guess we shall see, but honestly? my expectations are pretty low. I'm expecting the "well.. they are good at tech and living in space, so they are just there" without much reference how the HELL did Conclave allow that many quarians to live (you kinda want to have a certain minimum population to minimize inbreeding), or how do they plan on solving the whole quarian immunity issue.

[Derah]

huh... so.... this is an interesting little plothole. on one hand - having quarians come along makes sense on many levels. they know how to live on ships, and they do want a home. on the other hand... not once it gets mentioned by the conclave? not once does Tali bring it up? Shepard knows about the initiative, obviously and I would think Tali would as well, but... fleet having fewer people due to colonists splitting of would kinda be a big deal, no? I know that quarians don't really like to talk to outsiders, but it seems like Shepard is very much a different story due to connection to Tali. I'm curious to see if they just never mention it or actualy bother to bring it up. given precedent - I'm guessing it will be one of those "it has always been this way, what do you mean something is different" things

quarians CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOHOOOOOOO They better make one available as a Love Interest =D

As for plot holes....... not really.

If the conclave didn't mention it, is because the two times we meet them in ME2 and 3 they had bigger shit to worry about.

In ME2, one of their ships was taken over by geth, and one of their admirals was potentially a traitor to the fleet. In ME3, they had the whole war with the geth, reclamation of Rannoch, and then war with the reapers.

The topic just didn't come up. They probably didn't even see it as that big a deal. Each Ark brings over 20.000 colonists of the "major" races in the milky way. Humans, Turians, Asari, and Salarian. Everyone else who goes on the arks will be bringing significantly less people with them.

Quarians have an estimated population of 17 million people. Sending 2000 away in some galactic expedition would mean little when they had their fleet compromised, or when they were reclaiming rannoch.

I mean, there is some fridge-logic with the whole Andromeda Initiative not being mentioned by ANYONE on the third game (For example, after the fall of Thessia, the Asari councilor will say that preparations must be made for the continuation of civilization. Nobody says "phew, good thing we sent a large chunk of colonists away from this fucking mess".) But nothing really major.

For example, Quarians also don't mention the whole thing with Gillian Grayson, or Paul Grayson, who lived in the Migrant flotilla for a year in between ME1 and 2. And the attack of Cerberus on the flotilla to retrieve them gets barely a glancing nod in ME2. But they've never said "yep, we had 2 humans living among us in our flotilla".

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Curious timing if there's any significant amount of Quarians around, in the time frame of departure given they were preparing for invading the Geth in the lore.

Nah, the expedition began to be setup about 10 years BEFORE ME1.

And it actually took off the milky way 6 months BEFORE ME2 (And since ME3 takes place 6 months after 2, that means the expedition left a full year prior to the attack on Rannoch)

The quarians only attacked rannoch when Admiral Xen developed a revolutionary piece of technology (based off the experiments of Tali's father) that could jam Geth radar systems effectively blinding them. This tech was developed long after the events of ME2 happened. Which means the quarians didn't really geared up for war on Rannoch until long after the andromeda expedition had left. (They only recalled all their pilgrims at the very start of ME3, when you ask around in the citadel)

[Ilikegreenfire]

The thing is given Quarian culture and breeding requirements the idea that a viable population left for Andromeda without something being said is kind of silly.

There are a few Quarin's who never come back from pilgrimages, but they couldn't be enough for a viable population.

The way i see the 2 most likely scenarios are.

1 A few Quarians go as support staff, not enough to sustain a population, they get called colonialists anyway, and eventually die off.

2 The Ai has collected zygotes/gametes from Quarians, perhaps as a deal for them getting the Migrant Fleet to consult on the project. They use these to create a new population in andromida, as per the deal with the Fleet.

This tweet https://twitter.com/aarynflynn/statu...719040?lang=en

Maybe you're the last hope for quarians. Did you ever think of that?

makes #2 seem likely. They'll be in the game just as eggs/sperm/zygotes we have to save/incubate/whatever.

[rhorle]

huh... so.... this is an interesting little plothole. on one hand - having quarians come along makes sense on many levels. they know how to live on ships, and they do want a home. on the other hand... not once it gets mentioned by the conclave? not once does Tali bring it up? Shepard knows about the initiative, obviously and I would think Tali would as well, but... fleet having fewer people due to colonists splitting of would kinda be a big deal, no? I know that quarians don't really like to talk to outsiders, but it seems like Shepard is very much a different story due to connection to Tali. I'm curious to see if they just never mention it or actualy bother to bring it up. given precedent - I'm guessing it will be one of those "it has always been this way, what do you mean something is different" things

We also don't see anyone on board the Normandy going to the bathroom despite having bathrooms. That doesn't mean no one ever went to the bathroom. Just because they never mentioned it doesn't mean it is a plot hole in previous or current games. It doesn't make it a ret con. It just means it wasn't mentioned just as millions of other things were never mentioned.

[Witchblade77]

The thing is given Quarian culture and breeding requirements the idea that a viable population left for Andromeda without something being said is kind of silly.

There are a few Quarin's who never come back from pilgrimages, but they couldn't be enough for a viable population.

The way i see the 2 most likely scenarios are.

1 A few Quarians go as support staff, not enough to sustain a population, they get called colonialists anyway, and eventually die off.

2 The Ai has collected zygotes/gametes from Quarians, perhaps as a deal for them getting the Migrant Fleet to consult on the project. They use these to create a new population in andromida, as per the deal with the Fleet.

This tweet https://twitter.com/aarynflynn/statu...719040?lang=en makes #2 seem likely. They'll be in the game just as eggs/sperm/zygotes we have to save/incubate/whatever.

that's kinda my take on it, yes. I mean.. it takes a MAJOR crime just to get exiled as a quarian. and i don't believe they have a death penalty, at least not that i can remember. this not being mentioned in books is just widening of the plothole, not an excuse why its not mentioned in games IMO.

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We also don't see anyone on board the Normandy going to the bathroom despite having bathrooms. That doesn't mean no one ever went to the bathroom. Just because they never mentioned it doesn't mean it is a plot hole in previous or current games. It doesn't make it a ret con. It just means it wasn't mentioned just as millions of other things were never mentioned.

its too big of a thing not to be mentioned in any way, especialy for quarians. you cannot possibly compare it to basic bodily function that people tend not to talk to, regardless. I can see other species keeping it secret, its still a plothole, but not as much of a plothole that quarians going as colonists to andromeda is. the impact of possibly viable breeding population just.. leaving flotila? is too large. especially becasue of the whole war/assault on geth they have been planning.

[rhorle]

its too big of a thing not to be mentioned in any way, especialy for quarians. you cannot possibly compare it to basic bodily function that people tend not to talk to, regardless. I can see other species keeping it secret, its still a plothole, but not as much of a plothole that quarians going as colonists to andromeda is. the impact of possibly viable breeding population just.. leaving flotila? is too large. especially becasue of the whole war/assault on geth they have been planning.

We were never with Quarians 24/7. We were not around 24/7 in the game. There is no reason to indicate that Shepard has privy to 100% of all things in the Universe and heard 100% of all things that happened in the Universe. There is no reason to suggest that just because Shepard didn't hear something means it could never ever happen.

You are over thinking it and misusing plot hole. Quarians could have been talking about it. Tali could have known about it. Shepard could even have known about it. Just because we didn't experience it as players doesn't mean that it wasn't a known thing. Besides if it is a plot hole as you say it doesn't matter because we as players never went through N7 training yet played the entire game as N7 trained. I could go on and on with supposed plot holes or it could just be that some things are assumed or not made known to players but is still true in the lore.

What if they did it as a contingency plan? What if they AI traded tech/knowledge/stuff for some Quarian colonists. There are plenty of viable and logical reasons for why Quarians would be involved with the AI. The Quarians are not robots they are not only capable of doing one thing at a time.

[Witchblade77]

We were never with Quarians 24/7. We were not around 24/7 in the game. There is no reason to indicate that Shepard has privy to 100% of all things in the Universe and heard 100% of all things that happened in the Universe. There is no reason to suggest that just because Shepard didn't hear something means it could never ever happen.

You are over thinking it and misusing plot hole. Quarians could have been talking about it. Tali could have known about it. Shepard could even have known about it. Just because we didn't experience it as players doesn't mean that it wasn't a known thing. Besides if it is a plot hole as you say it doesn't matter because we as players never went through N7 training yet played the entire game as N7 trained. I could go on and on with supposed plot holes or it could just be that some things are assumed or not made known to players but is still true in the lore.

What if they did it as a contingency plan? What if they AI traded tech/knowledge/stuff for some Quarian colonists. There are plenty of viable and logical reasons for why Quarians would be involved with the AI. The Quarians are not robots they are not only capable of doing one thing at a time.

I'm not questioning viability of quarians for the colonization mission. ok, I'm questioning a small part of it - that is of their immune systems not exactly being great, but I HAVE acknowledged that they have an incredibly useful skillsets for ark ships, as well as desire to find an actual permanent home. however. not using LOSING that many quarians to colonization mission as a way to convince quarians NOT to attack geth, just no mention of it at all whatsoever? given what we know about quarians and their situation, given how privvy Tali is and how she mentions or just about everything else? the fact that we KNOW that Shepard is aware of the mission, if recorded sendoff message is anything to go by? how is it that we never mention the andromeda mission give that Reaper based extinction is imminent, not even "well at least we have an andromeda" it IS something that asari Counsilor would have been aware of and certainly would have considered as Thessia was falling to the reapers. Quarians being part of the colonist population? exacerbates the issues.

unless they address it in some way? its a plothole. its ok, bioware has plenty of those. hell - at least half the fanfiction exists to fix those plotholes. it doesn't mean we are not allowed to discuss them, or muse about them and should just brush it off.

[I Push Buttons]

I'm not questioning viability of quarians for the colonization mission. ok, I'm questioning a small part of it - that is of their immune systems not exactly being great, but I HAVE acknowledged that they have an incredibly useful skillsets for ark ships, as well as desire to find an actual permanent home. however. not using LOSING that many quarians to colonization mission as a way to convince quarians NOT to attack geth, just no mention of it at all whatsoever? given what we know about quarians and their situation, given how privvy Tali is and how she mentions or just about everything else? the fact that we KNOW that Shepard is aware of the mission, if recorded sendoff message is anything to go by? how is it that we never mention the andromeda mission give that Reaper based extinction is imminent, not even "well at least we have an andromeda" it IS something that asari Counsilor would have been aware of and certainly would have considered as Thessia was falling to the reapers. Quarians being part of the colonist population? exacerbates the issues.

unless they address it in some way? its a plothole. its ok, bioware has plenty of those. hell - at least half the fanfiction exists to fix those plotholes. it doesn't mean we are not allowed to discuss them, or muse about them and should just brush it off.

1. They don't have a full compliment of Quarians... There wasn't a Quarian Ark. So the number is at most a few thousand, probably significantly less.

2. Its not a plot hole for their tagging along to not be mentioned in the original games... None of this was mentioned in the original trilogy. So that argument is silly at this point. The ENTIRE GAME is a plot hole by that logic.

3. The Quarian Flotilla only has so much space. The codex and what not said they enforced a zero birth rate, barring families from having more than one child for that reason and only lifting the ban when their population began to decline, implying it wouldn't be difficult to recover a few thousand lost Quarian. Quarians tagging along could be hand waved away with a couple lines of dialogue... "blah blah blah one of our larger ships in the Flotilla was failing, the thousands of Quarians on it had nowhere to go, the Andromeda Initiative offered them a home... blah blah..."

4. It makes perfect sense to bring Quarians. Like the most recent briefing mentioned, they don't know if the worlds are inhabited, claimed, even habitable, etc... The Andromeda Initiative, from their perspective, could very well have become a society adrift in space if they didn't immediately settle golden worlds. Quarians and their knowledge of a such a lifestyle would be indispensable.

[Derah]

I'm not questioning viability of quarians for the colonization mission. ok, I'm questioning a small part of it - that is of their immune systems not exactly being great, but I HAVE acknowledged that they have an incredibly useful skillsets for ark ships, as well as desire to find an actual permanent home. however. not using LOSING that many quarians to colonization mission as a way to convince quarians NOT to attack geth, just no mention of it at all whatsoever? given what we know about quarians and their situation, given how privvy Tali is and how she mentions or just about everything else? the fact that we KNOW that Shepard is aware of the mission, if recorded sendoff message is anything to go by? how is it that we never mention the andromeda mission give that Reaper based extinction is imminent, not even "well at least we have an andromeda" it IS something that asari Counsilor would have been aware of and certainly would have considered as Thessia was falling to the reapers. Quarians being part of the colonist population? exacerbates the issues.

unless they address it in some way? its a plothole. its ok, bioware has plenty of those. hell - at least half the fanfiction exists to fix those plotholes. it doesn't mean we are not allowed to discuss them, or muse about them and should just brush it off.

You're assuming a shitload of quarians went. That's not the case.

The major honcho races (Humans, Asari, Turians, Salarians) sent only 20.000 which is not even the population of a small district of a city. The other races sent people probably in the few hundreds, at most a couple of thousands. That's barely the population of a village.

2000 quarians leaving a flotilla of 17 million people wouldn't account for even 0.01% of their population. Its a negligible loss.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You're assuming a shitload of quarians went. That's not the case.

The major honcho races (Humans, Asari, Turians, Salarians) sent only 20.000 which is not even the population of a small district of a city. The other races sent people probably in the few hundreds, at most a couple of thousands. That's barely the population of a village.

2000 quarians leaving a flotilla of 17 million people wouldn't account for even 0.01% of their population. Its a negligible loss.

Unless of course there is anyone notable in those thousands.

[Derah]

unless they address it in some way? its a plothole.

Its not like its THAT hard to address it.

"One of our major Liveships was failing, it had a population of almost 2000 people who had nowhere else to go. The Andromeda Initiative offered them a place among them, along with citizenship, heavy incentives, and an entire planet for themselves if a dextro-planet was discovered".

And this not being mentioned is because again, a fleet of 17 million, losing 2000 people is not even a blip on their radar.

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Unless of course there is anyone notable in those thousands.

There wont be.

Every single named quarian we met in the first 2 games, showed up in the third, meaning they didn't go to Andromeda.

[Witchblade77]

1. They don't have a full compliment of Quarians... There wasn't a Quarian Ark. So the number is at most a few thousand, probably significantly less.

2. Its not a plot hole for their tagging along to not be mentioned in the original games... None of this was mentioned in the original trilogy. So that argument is silly at this point. The ENTIRE GAME is a plot hole by that logic.

3. The Quarian Flotilla only has so much space. The codex and what not said they enforced a zero birth rate, barring families from having more than one child for that reason and only lifting the ban when their population began to decline, implying it wouldn't be difficult to recover a few thousand lost Quarian. Quarians tagging along could be hand waved away with a couple lines of dialogue... "blah blah blah one of our larger ships in the Flotilla was failing, the thousands of Quarians on it had nowhere to go, the Andromeda Initiative offered them a home... blah blah..."

4. It makes perfect sense to bring Quarians. Like the most recent briefing mentioned, they don't know if the worlds are inhabited, claimed, even habitable, etc... The Andromeda Initiative, from their perspective, could very well have become a society adrift in space if they didn't immediately settle golden worlds. Quarians and their knowledge of a such a lifestyle would be indispensable.

1. so basically they are going there as a nonviable population? unless the game mentions something about preserved embrios or whatever - this is extinction waiting to happen. so they are going there, knowing that they will have to inbreed. a lot.
2. the whole game is indeed a plot hole. quarians being there - exacerbates that little fact. honestly? they are most likely there because - fans. I have serious doubts that bioware thought any further then that, given precedent of prior games.
3. if aforementioned handwaving does happen, than while its still a plot hole, they have at least attempted to adress it.
4. I actualy agree completely and mentioned it a few times. aside form the whole immune system issue thing - quarians have an invaluable skillset when it comes to missions like Andromeda initiative. I only have an issue with how it interacts with prior games, especially given the timing of the mission. if they had gone during the reaper war, as that "other arrangements" deal that asari councilor mentioned - it would have simultaneously explain the secrecy, made the council much less idiotic and account for all the galaxy species going. but.. instead we are just ... going with it.

[Derah]

1. so basically they are going there as a nonviable population?

You're gonna have to specify what do you define as "viable population", because as I've said several times before, the major races are only sending 20000 each, everyone else is bringing SIGNIFICANTLY less than that number. This includes the Krogan, and whichever non-major race is part of the initiative.

Is 2000 not enough to have sufficient genetic diversity? Because I think it is. And 2000 isn't even 0.01% of the total population of the flotilla (Which has 17 million people) which is a negligible loss for them.

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2. the whole game is indeed a plot hole. quarians being there - exacerbates that little fact. honestly? they are most likely there because - fans. I have serious doubts that bioware thought any further then that, given precedent of prior games.

Not really.

Mass Effect switched from functionally infinite ammunition in ME1, to limited ammo in ME2 and 3, and rather than never address this at all (Like games such as Metroid Prime did) they devoted a very extensive segment of the codex to explain this discrepancy.

Qunari went from looking like somewhat tall human, to oxen humanoids (Complete with pointy ears and all) in DA2 and 3, and rather than just shrug and ignore it, the codex goes to great lengths to explain this discrepancy.

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and account for all the galaxy species going. but.. instead we are just ... going with it.

I feel the need to highlight that its not confirmed that "all" the galaxy species are going.

The only ones confirmed so far are: Human, Asari, Turian, Salarian, Krogan, and Quarian. There are some that I highly doubt will go (Batarians, Vorcha, Yagg, Geth, Rachni, due to their hostility to the council) and some that are questionable if they'll go (Volus, Elcor, Drell, Hanar, due to their very specific needs)

[Ilikegreenfire]

You're assuming a shitload of quarians went. That's not the case.

The major honcho races (Humans, Asari, Turians, Salarians) sent only 20.000 which is not even the population of a small district of a city. The other races sent people probably in the few hundreds, at most a couple of thousands. That's barely the population of a village.

2000 quarians leaving a flotilla of 17 million people wouldn't account for even 0.01% of their population. Its a negligible loss.

The thing is given the culture of the fleet there is probably only a handful of quarians who would ever even want to leave the fleet anyway. Between exiles and those who chose to not return after pilgrimage i doubt it is anything over 100. Remember this is the race that sends whole squads out when one of there own disappear.

I discovered there are actual scientific papers on population viability in space like this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...94576513004669 it states the minimum viable human population is 14,000. Given the fragile nature of the quarians this number is likely significantly higher for them.
They also require specialized facilities for babies and the like, facilities they wouldn't have till the Nexus is fully operational, its still being built 34 years after arrival.
If the Ai brought along quarian genetic material they could create a new quarian population anytime they wanted, after they had the facilities.

[Derah]

I discovered there are actual scientific papers on population viability in space like this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...94576513004669 it states the minimum viable human population is 14,000. Given the fragile nature of the quarians this number is likely significantly higher for them.

Nitpicking a little here, but quarians are not fragile. Aside from their weakened immune system, the codex states they're a surprisingly robust race, with Grunt himself commenting on it on ME2 with this quote when you ask him if the tank taught him how to fight other races: "Humans, asari, salarians... all soft. Quarians........ not so much."

[Ilikegreenfire]

Nitpicking a little here, but quarians are not fragile. Aside from their weakened immune system, the codex states they're a surprisingly robust race, with Grunt himself commenting on it on ME2 with this quote when you ask him if the tank taught him how to fight other races: "Humans, asari, salarians... all soft. Quarians........ not so much."

I always figured Grunt was talking about their exo suits. Regardless of terminology their immune systems are shit,especially in a new galexy, if they want to have sexy time they have to plan ahead sync suits and even still they get week long fevers, and this is on the sterile migrant fleet. Let alone pregnancy, that probably requires a specialized suit unless the base ones are super stretchy, then you have the birth, then they have to put this kids in bubbles until adolescence. Meaning its a helluva a lot harder and dangerous for quarians to breed meaning you need more for a good population. They would need specialized areas of the Nexus to do all that especially bubble and birthing centers.

Its much easier to store embryos and grow them later after the Nexus and the colony word is up to snuff. the Arks are probably already chalk full of embryo food animals.

[kaid]

1. so basically they are going there as a nonviable population? unless the game mentions something about preserved embrios or whatever - this is extinction waiting to happen. so they are going there, knowing that they will have to inbreed. a lot.
2. the whole game is indeed a plot hole. quarians being there - exacerbates that little fact. honestly? they are most likely there because - fans. I have serious doubts that bioware thought any further then that, given precedent of prior games.
3. if aforementioned handwaving does happen, than while its still a plot hole, they have at least attempted to adress it.
4. I actualy agree completely and mentioned it a few times. aside form the whole immune system issue thing - quarians have an invaluable skillset when it comes to missions like Andromeda initiative. I only have an issue with how it interacts with prior games, especially given the timing of the mission. if they had gone during the reaper war, as that "other arrangements" deal that asari councilor mentioned - it would have simultaneously explain the secrecy, made the council much less idiotic and account for all the galaxy species going. but.. instead we are just ... going with it.

Well actually in theory 1,000 or so females is probably a viable population. Especially if they have banks of genetic material like sperm banks or however that would work for quarians. The biggest problem for a small population is inbreeding but with care and a big enough bank of genetic material that would be more than sufficient for a seed population.

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The thing is given the culture of the fleet there is probably only a handful of quarians who would ever even want to leave the fleet anyway. Between exiles and those who chose to not return after pilgrimage i doubt it is anything over 100. Remember this is the race that sends whole squads out when one of there own disappear.

I discovered there are actual scientific papers on population viability in space like this one http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...94576513004669 it states the minimum viable human population is 14,000. Given the fragile nature of the quarians this number is likely significantly higher for them.
They also require specialized facilities for babies and the like, facilities they wouldn't have till the Nexus is fully operational, its still being built 34 years after arrival.
If the Ai brought along quarian genetic material they could create a new quarian population anytime they wanted, after they had the facilities.

One thing to note that 14k is the number you need for a normally reproducing gene pool doing things ye olde natural way. If you have advanced fertility options and genetic materials from a larger base to pull from you don't need that many actual people. If they don't have artificial womb options than you need enough quarian women willing to have a lot of kids. Any males on the initial trip out would be a luxury. Send out 1k females with genetic material for 20-30k males and females and you have more than enough for a viable healthy population.

Now if you have exo wombs that work for quarians than you don't actually need many adults at all. At that point even a few hundred to help teach kids about their people and their customs is likely enough.

[May90]

It would make sense to hire Quarians for the expedition, due to their prowess with technology and spaceships, and their inherent ability to survive in hostile environments (due to their suits). Plus, Quarians have been looking for a new world for a long time, and there is a chance to find one in Andromeda - it is a long shot, but worth it, given that Quarians in before ME3 events weren't sure they would ever get Rannoch back. Plus, Quarian numbers were never high, and sending a few dozen colonists to another galaxy with a lot of unknowns gives a chance for rapid population growth in the new environment. Plus, Andromeda seems like a perfect target for pilgrimage.

I wonder if they send the Geth there as well: not the Heretics, but the "true" Geth.