Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, calls for fresh independence referendum

[klogaroth]

Honestly, I think it's highly irresponsible for anyone in power to even consider it at the moment.
We haven't even finalised our Brexit plan

It doesn't have to be right away, nor is it likely that it would be if it were granted. There are a lot of things going on, and it looks almost certain that if an independent Scotland becomes a reality that they'd have to apply to the EU as a new nation, assuming that's even what people in Scotland want to do at the end of it all. Given all this it's likely that a new referendum would take place around the time the UK leaves the EU, most likely after we leave the EU. Then people can decide what they want to do once they know the situation regarding Brexit, and have a better feel for the likely outcome of a Scottish EU application, or if they even want to make one.

[Tommi]

I love how certain posters are talking about Scottish people, as if it was 100% voted to stay in EU. If we look at the actual numbers who voted, most didn't give a fuck by not voting. Therefor, by logic, Scotland doesn't give a fuck if it stays in EU or not. That's how it works, right? The biggest percentage wins?

I hope IndyRef2 does happen. I hope that, once again, it's a NO. Then in a few years we can have "IndyRef3: Return of the Salmond-Sturgeon love child."

IndyRef4: The SNP Strikes Back!
IndyRef5: Robo-Salmond Returns!
IndyRef6: Doomsday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(2008_film))

[Zelk]

haha has anyone else seen braveheart xd

[Shadowmelded]

Being that it was put down in the white paper to try and convince people to vote for independence negates the argument. People voted to remain in the U.K. knowing (in fact being notified in explicit terms) that the UK could vote to leave the EU

And they were also told it wasn't going to happen by the Better together campaign. A definitive statement usually carries more sway than an argument based on something that could happen. Remember just how big a surprise Brexit winning was to people. At the time of the Independence referendum, not only was an EU ref not a guarantee but the possibility of Brexit winning would have been laughed at.

[Rockyreg]

And they were also told it wasn't going to happen by the Better together campaign. A definitive statement usually carries more sway than an argument based on something that could happen. Remember just how big a surprise Brexit winning was to people. At the time of the Independence referendum, not only was an EU ref not a guarantee but the possibility of Brexit winning would have been laughed at.

So basically the Better Together campaign gave a statement based on something that could/couldn't happen exactly like the SNP white paper.

As for the possibility being laughed at look at the EU referendum polling in the run-up to the independence vote at it would suggest completely the opposite of what you are claiming

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opin...hip_referendum

[Shadowmelded]

So basically the Better Together campaign gave a statement based on something that could/couldn't happen exactly like the SNP white paper.

As for the possibility being laughed at look at the EU referendum polling in the run-up to the independence vote at it would suggest completely the opposite of what you are claiming

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opin...hip_referendum

The better together campaign's statement wasn't "Oh you're more likely to stay in the EU" it was "Voting No is the only to safeguard your EU membership". That's definitive. As for Brexit, are you seriously suggesting people study opinion polls rigorously? That people weren't in disbelief that Brexit won? That even Nigel Farage wasn't already laying the groundwork for conceding after polling closed?

[Dezerte]

Might make more sense to hold such a referendum in a few years, yes.

[Rockyreg]

The better together campaign's statement wasn't "Oh you're more likely to stay in the EU" it was "Voting No is the only to safeguard your EU membership". That's definitive. As for Brexit, are you seriously suggesting people study opinion polls rigorously? That people weren't in disbelief that Brexit won? That even Nigel Farage wasn't already laying the groundwork for conceding after polling closed?

Answer to the first part as per Nymrohd's answer. In both the independence and EU referendum people were essentially being asked to vote for an unknown future.

Yes I am seriously saying that people study opinion polls. If this EU issue was so important as it keeps being made out to be then surely people would have looked for themselves to see how likely that outcome is would they not?

- - - Updated - - -

Might make more sense to hold such a referendum in a few years, yes.

Of course it would. What happens if in the end of the 2 year negotiation period a transitional deal is made between the UK and EU where everything remains the same until new terms are agreed. Campaigning for another Independence referendum would have already started, would the SNP just call a halt to the whole thing?

[Shadowmelded]

Answer to the first part as per Nymrohd's answer. In both the independence and EU referendum people were essentially being asked to vote for an unknown future.

Yes I am seriously saying that people study opinion polls. If this EU issue was so important as it keeps being made out to be then surely people would have looked for themselves to see how likely that outcome is would they not?

It wasn't presented that way by the Better Together campaign and like I said, people were complacent about Brexit. They didn't think it would happen no matter how much you believe that people study opinion polls regularly.

[Teleros]

Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, calls for more money to prop up her one-party state

Fixed thread title for you.

Given that Scotland would have to reapply to join NATO & the EU - processes that take years typically - and that Theresa May's ruled out any Scottish referendum before Brexit (AND reiterated the "once in a generation" line), the dear, Hitler-loving SNP (no really, check out the party's history) will just have to suck it up. I mean, it was close before, back when Alex Salmond was lying about Scotland simply continuing to be an EU member, when the EU was saying "no, you'd have to reapply for entry"... this time, I can't see them taking that big a leap into the unknown.

More, the Scottish economy is far more reliant on "exports" to the rest of the UK than to the EU, and is running a god-awful deficit etc, so they'd be a bit of a basket case if the EU admitted them. The theory round here is that demands for independence are like North Korea's nuclear weapons - ie a means of extorting money out of the southern neighbour.

Which it won't of course, because the Spanish (and maybe some others, like the Italians) will veto it to discourage their own independence movements in Catalonia and the like.

[Deleted]

Good one. Take scotland back lads

[Shadowmelded]

I think he framed it in a normative manner, i.e. people SHOULD study opinion polls. The fact that they don't doesn't change the fact that they should. The fact the the Better Together campaign presented the fact with a bias in its favor does not change the facts themselves.

And I don't disagree that they should, however expecting people to take an opinion poll as prophecy when it's not even guaranteed that the Referendum would even happen and even then with 20% undecided and short campaigns leading to people informing themselves a lot closer to the vote isn't exactly a reasonable request to make of people. Yes the possibility was there but to a lot of people it didn't seem likely. It didn't seem likely to most Remainers and even Farage himself on the day of the vote after the polls had closed.

[Shadowmelded]

I understand what you are saying. I for one am an extremely risk averse person. And as my profession dictates, when you make a judgment one of the primary guidelines should always be prudence. If something is a distinct possibility and has significant consequences there is no excuse not to take into account and make provisions for it, especially if it worsens your positions.

And my point is, it wasn't a distinct possibility to a lot of people, it was remote. The conservatives would need to win an election (which the polls didn't point towards and even the Scottish Conservative Leader said during a debate didn't look like happening), a majority at that as a lot of people assumed that Cameron would bargain away an EU ref if he had to go into coalition with the Lib Dems again, AND Brexit had to win which everyone, naively or not, thought was unlikely even up to the day itself.

[Tommi]

And I hope you stop representing Scottish people on this board.

What makes any other Scots opinion better than mines? Works both way, mind you.

If the random posters want to be idiots and post about Braveheart and other nonsense, thats to be expected.

Sadly, that's exactly what's happening. People thinking with emotions rather than logically. I had an ex-friend scream at me down the phone saying I ruined his daughters life by voting NO. When I said I thought with my head rather than my emotions, he shouts " FREEDOM" and hangs up phone....... ALL MY WATS?

But at the very least show a little respect for the decision your country will have to make, the country our children and family will have to live in.

Ah, but THAT works both ways as well. The UK as a whole decided to leave the EU. Why is there no respect for that decision? I could also point out that the SNP didn't respect the Scottish peoples will to stay in the UK, yet bitches about the UK government not respecting Scotlands wishes? Bit fucking selective there, hypocritical maybe as well.

The parliament has a majority interest in Independence, meaning Scotland chose that route, and its their job to do what they've been asked to do,

Not as a whole. I didn't vote for the SNP. But the majority won, and I accept that.

so if you have a problem, voice it, dont resort to freaking daily mail rhetoric.

Oh I did voice it, during the campaigning in Edinburgh. I got told "fuck off" and " I wasn't a true Scotsman" by someone very aggressively right in my face. If there hadn't been a massive police presence that day, I might have just responded in a proper Scottish way to him. Alas, such people aren't worth the night in a cell.

[alzoron]

I wonder if Scotland could somehow convince the rest of the UK to secede from Scotland if then Scotland could remain in the EU with all their special perks left intact. It's kind of a mental gymnastics solution but interesting to think about nonetheless.

[Rockyreg]

And my point is, it wasn't a distinct possibility to a lot of people, it was remote. The conservatives would need to win an election (which the polls didn't point towards and even the Scottish Conservative Leader said during a debate didn't look like happening), a majority at that as a lot of people assumed that Cameron would bargain away an EU ref if he had to go into coalition with the Lib Dems again, AND Brexit had to win which everyone, naively or not, thought was unlikely even up to the day itself.

Slightly hypocritical don't you think?

[caervek]

Given that Scotland would have to reapply to join NATO & the EU - processes that take years typically - and that Theresa May's ruled out any Scottish referendum before Brexit (AND reiterated the "once in a generation" line)

There's also the issue that with the UK leaving the EU/single market, if Scotland wanted membership of either (and got accepted) that would rule out any possibility of using the pound, so hello Euros (and the EU won't let Scotland put the faces of famous Scots on them).

[Mormolyce]

And I hope you stop representing Scottish people on this board. If the random posters want to be idiots and post about Braveheart and other nonsense, thats to be expected. But at the very least show a little respect for the decision your country will have to make, the country our children and family will have to live in.

How I feel when bogans like Aussiedude post.

haha has anyone else seen braveheart xd

No, no-one.

[Trassk]

Good one. Take scotland back lads

"Scotland wants to be independent, while being joined at Europe's hip". Does nobody see the irony in any of this?

[NED funded]

Scotland should not surrender to the false song of globalism. Scotland first.