Mass burnout.

[Sanguinerd]

and ? why do you think you opinion mater more just because you raid mythic ? if anything opinion of mythic raiders is more irrelevant since they make up for 2-5 % of playerbase. any dev catering to such small audience instead masses deserves to be imidiately fired ad hes completly clueless buisnesswise.

Unfortunantly that's exactly what Ion does and has been doing, it's always about "high-end" raiders what they do and prefer bla bla bla.. it has totally fucked this game.

[Deleted]

For me Wow was never really more than a raid simulator/pvp game. With Legion came myth+, which i liked for the infinite "raidlike" playability. But just as in older expansions i wanted to raid in the top difficulty. Found no stable guild since im a tank. Am sure that i could easily pug mythic nh with my hc pug. Crossrealm raiding for whatever fuckin reason (money) not possible. So ... i quit. Especially seeing how there will be another ap grind.

[Grimnakh]

For me Wow was never really more than a raid simulator/pvp game. With Legion came myth+, which i liked for the infinite "raidlike" playability. But just as in older expansions i wanted to raid in the top difficulty. Found no stable guild since im a tank. Am sure that i could easily pug mythic nh with my hc pug. Crossrealm raiding for whatever fuckin reason (money) not possible. So ... i quit. Especially seeing how there will be another ap grind.

Ya I wish theyd make mythic raiding puggable cross realm, have more friendly lockout rules. I wouldnt mind pushing it a bit here and there. But Im ok right now, enjoying the game as it is. Always room for improvement. Hopefully Blizz doesnt listen to the bad attitude members of the mythic raid/wannabe mythic raid community.

[Deleted]

Considering this is the easiest expansion ever to get gear your point is again moot. If there's a weekly lockout on nighthold why is there not one on an alternative path to high Ilvl gear? It doesn't make sense. I don't even use M+ for gear, but have been getting into groups easily as a dps. Even if you put caps on gear drops from M+ it would be easy as all hell to gear. The only thing I do agree on is people need to have more self control, however that doesn't mean they should keep+ the way it is.

Sorry.... what? This is the easiest expansion to get gear? Is this your only expansion you played?

[Heladys]

This is the reality of every player like you who comes in here talking about how great these new systems are.

I'm at least glad you finally admitted it.

It's also the reality of 99% of the posers claiming to be mythic raiders on here and adopting positions they think mythic raiders would support.

[Gatao]

The grind is just too heavy to stay competitive in mythic raiding,i love raiding but i am forced to stop becouse dont have enough time to keep up.

[Grimnakh]

Sorry.... what? This is the easiest expansion to get gear? Is this your only expansion you played?

It was easier in some expansions for top raiders (some allowed top pvp players to as well) to get gear, and pretty much impossible for anyone else to get anything close. So, since at least 95% of players are not top end raiders then yes, this expansion is significantly easier to gear up if you avg that out among all players. Only exception would be end of expansion easymode environments.

[Luko]

This is the reality of every player like you who comes in here talking about how great these new systems are.

I'm at least glad you finally admitted it.

So few people actually mythic raid, though. Such a small minority when Blizzard does what ANY company would do and takes a step back to look at their playerbase as a whole. Some of these high end players are putting themselves through hell for this shit and then blaming the game for it. I'll never be able to wrap my head around it.

[RuneDK]

Sorry.... what? This is the easiest expansion to get gear? Is this your only expansion you played?

Ive been playing since Vanilla, no expansion has been this easy to obtain a high ilvl. That's a problem with M+ since you can grind it.

- - - Updated - - -

So few people actually mythic raid, though. Such a small minority when Blizzard does what ANY company would do and takes a step back to look at their playerbase as a whole. Some of these high end players are putting themselves through hell for this shit and then blaming the game for it. I'll never be able to wrap my head around it.

The blame is on the players as well as Blizzard. When people gave valuable feedback regarding AP and Legendaries(especially legs) Blizzard didn't care to listen. With that said, Mythic guilds are requiring a lot out of their players. Because they want to be the best, and obviously having 15% additional damage and your best legendaries are going to help that cause. The effort to get that is ridiculous and really shouldn't be forced on the players by their guilds. Where Blizzard fails in the design is giving people an endless option to obtain high level gear and AP....People will find a mathematical way for them to maximize their time spent which is why Maw of Souls farming is a thing. Any moron with half a brain would realize people would figure out the fastest way possible to maximize their weapons and ilvl. I saw it a mile away when I saw there was no cap on loot drops from M+. There's also other systems that I think blizzard is stupid on as well. The fact they want your character to progress, and literally a minute later said no you need to progress your spec during their last Q&A with Ion was laughable. The Diablofied grindfest for legendaries is again laughable in the state that it's in. The way they are obtained isn't necessarily a problem, but the drop rate is still waaaaay too low. The reason it works on Diablo is because they drop aplenty and often. I can go play Diablo 3 right now and within an hour can get up to probably 5-10 legendaries. That system wouldn't work in wow, and neither does the system they have in place. You should basically be guaranteed a legendary every week, and even then depending on your luck and class you could still be a few months away from having all the legendaries of your class.

At the end of the day, Blizzard is talking out of both sides of their mouth too much. The game is supposed to be fun, and outside of AP grinding and the current legendary system the expansion is top notch...throw those into the mix and it's a completely mediocre expansion.

[Deleted]

Ive been playing since Vanilla, no expansion has been this easy to obtain a high ilvl. That's a problem with M+ since you can grind it.

- - - Updated - - -



The blame is on the players as well as Blizzard. When people gave valuable feedback regarding AP and Legendaries(especially legs) Blizzard didn't care to listen. With that said, Mythic guilds are requiring a lot out of their players. Because they want to be the best, and obviously having 15% additional damage and your best legendaries are going to help that cause. The effort to get that is ridiculous and really shouldn't be forced on the players by their guilds. Where Blizzard fails in the design is giving people an endless option to obtain high level gear and AP....People will find a mathematical way for them to maximize their time spent which is why Maw of Souls farming is a thing. Any moron with half a brain would realize people would figure out the fastest way possible to maximize their weapons and ilvl. I saw it a mile away when I saw there was no cap on loot drops from M+. There's also other systems that I think blizzard is stupid on as well. The fact they want your character to progress, and literally a minute later said no you need to progress your spec during their last Q&A with Ion was laughable. The Diablofied grindfest for legendaries is again laughable in the state that it's in. The way they are obtained isn't necessarily a problem, but the drop rate is still waaaaay too low. The reason it works on Diablo is because they drop aplenty and often. I can go play Diablo 3 right now and within an hour can get up to probably 5-10 legendaries. That system wouldn't work in wow, and neither does the system they have in place. You should basically be guaranteed a legendary every week, and even then depending on your luck and class you could still be a few months away from having all the legendaries of your class.

At the end of the day, Blizzard is talking out of both sides of their mouth too much. The game is supposed to be fun, and outside of AP grinding and the current legendary system the expansion is top notch...throw those into the mix and it's a completely mediocre expansion.

M+ is FAR from easy. Gear counts up to a certain point, there's mechanics at play that require constant involvement.
Compare this to for example, the way we were farming badges and just buying gear in previous expansions. How the hell is getting gear from votw + 16 easier than farming badges in faceroll dungeons.

[Generical]

The Legion grind has done a number on me. I guess I pushed it too hard and paid for it, because at this point I'm only online like 2 days a week.

There's always more to grind. I guess it's always been like that but I don't think it's ever been as bad as it is now.

[Cheze]

you don't need to grind like crazy to mythic raid; you need to play more than the average person, but that's always been the case. It was and is perfectly possible to kill mythic bosses without the last couple percentage points of throughput from your weapon in place. Will it be harder? Yeah, sure. You might wind up needing to farm the first three bosses for a couple extra weeks while you get more gear/ap. But again, that's not so different from how it's always been.

the problem is that lots of players and raids fancy themselves top 50 world or whatever, and 'force' themselves to farm all this stuff despite the fact that it's helping them only marginally. By all means farm for that tiny increase in throughput, but there's no need to kill yourself doing it.

ed: plus there are a lot more avenues to get those gear upgrades now than there were in bygone expansions

[Deleted]

At least part of the burnout is because Blizzard isn't artificially capping AP every week.

They are in a total lose-lose situation. Either they play it how they've been, and people burn themselves out (no AP cap, so you can play and play and play). Or they create artificial caps and people complain about being "forced" to hit the cap every day/week/month and decry blizzard for their "money-grabs" by timegating content.

You just can't help people from themselves.

Or they could have done the third way, like they did with daily heroics in MoP (or was it Cata?). Back then it wasn't a daily heroic that awarded bonus, but first 5 heroics of week. People could do it whenever they wanted, not feeling forced to log in every day.

Flexible time gating like that would be ideal. System already existed, developers simply decided not to use it.

[kamuimac]

The blame is on the players as well as Blizzard. When people gave valuable feedback regarding AP and Legendaries(especially legs) Blizzard didn't care to listen.

they did listen and they didnt agree with it - thats why it made it to game

what made them change their mind a bit was overwhelming whining of people pretnedning to be "hardcore" while wanting everything on silver platter. devs simply are to big of pussies to stick to their guns even when 99% of community is perfeckly happy with it and only ones whining are 1 % of fake hardcores (top guilds admited that legendaries where not a problem)

but its ok too - at least after this many years fake-harcore crowd finally admited they dont give a single f... about chalenge - all they want is gear. its kinda refreshing i guess

[Deleted]

Or they could have done the third way, like they did with daily heroics in MoP (or was it Cata?). Back then it wasn't a daily heroic that awarded bonus, but first 5 heroics of week. People could do it whenever they wanted, not feeling forced to log in every day.

Flexible time gating like that would be ideal. System already existed, developers simply decided not to use it.

OMG Blizz time gating mah progression omg.

You know that would have happened.

[Felarion]

As for me yeah it's burn out. I just log once a week to do nighthold on heroic and that's all, can't give a damn about artifact traits (got 48 right now i think), or wq. But it's all fine since after 10 years it's normal to get bored

[Deleted]

OMG Blizz time gating mah progression omg.

You know that would have happened.

Of course. However that system would still be better than bland grind.

Forgot to mention another aspect of that system: giving bad rewards beyond cap. First 5 dungeons per week give full rewards, the rest give small rewards. Want to get maximum reward for time invested? Do weekly stuff at any day of week. Want to grind all day long? Go ahead, but only first 5 dungeons give big rewards, the rest give mediocre rewards. Reduce rewards and chance to get legendary/titanforged in dungeons beyond soft cap, but still leave tiny chance.

[Deleted]

Of course. However that system would still be better than bland grind.

Forgot to mention another aspect of that system: giving bad rewards beyond cap. First 5 dungeons per week give full rewards, the rest give small rewards. Want to get maximum reward for time invested? Do weekly stuff at any day of week. Want to grind all day long? Go ahead, but only first 5 dungeons give big rewards, the rest give mediocre rewards. Reduce rewards and chance to get legendary/titanforged in dungeons beyond soft cap, but still leave tiny chance.

The grind is there only if you want it to be *zen*

[Dracullus]

The grind is there only if you want it to be *zen*

Start thread "Grind is only in your head". I guarantee that it will spread like wildfire.

But seriously, I noticed that:

- if content is too easy: "WoW is too casual, every scrub can finish this, bring back Vanilla."
- if content is too hard: "Guilds are falling apart, is this end of WoW?"

- if you can get all rewards quickly: "Nothing to do, Blizzard is lazy"
- if it take some time: "Too much grind, Blizz, we are burned out."
- if it is unpreditable: "Fucking RNG fest! This is not Warcraft, this is RNGCraft"

I ask many times: what is your definition of grind? For me this is doing something (for long period of time) that I HATE (or hate doing this countless times) to get reward that I WANT. I don't like PVP, so Prestige levels are grind for me (and still I have some choice to avoid grind by doing Warden towers).

But AP is no grind at all, because when I log in I can choose what activity I want do that day. If I would hate all: questing, dungeons, raids, PVP - there is literally no point playing WoW at all. People that were doing only mythic+ are like children, that were eating only chocolate and now they are sick of it. It's better for community, if that kind of people would just burn out and left the game, to be honest.

And there is no "middle ground" between "nothing to do" and "grind". If I can max everything after 4 months, I will have nothing to do after 4 months. If 6, I will have another WoD after 6 months. Now I always can progress my char, when I log in, and most important I can choose from different activities. And I know that every paragon point is just a bonus, not pernament like regular traits. I wish that AP would also come from things like transmog runs, because it too take some time, but imagine how "hardcore" would approach that situation.

[coño]

we've officially lost one member (he declared he was just going to let his subscription run out) but others have just stopped played. I myself who usually spends every waking moment in this game has had to dial it back to save my sanity. I wait 3 days to do my emissaries, do one or two M+'s for thechest, complete my all of my LFRs, normal NH, and heroic Bot for nightmare frond. My Feral weapon is maxed out.

My guild is slowly progressing in Heroic NH currently 3/10. We are on krosus but every attempt felt like people were just there and weren't actually engaged. The grind is even killing my casual guild.