Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Nahela]

Pre T19 4p, I ran with Demonic Infusion to close the gaps with DS. Post 4p, I can keep it up all the time, eps with ftd depending if i want to use more Versa instead of haste gear

With T20, it seems like DI and haste might be more valuable once again

In my opinion, as it stands right now, there's absolutely zero reason to upgrade to T20 unless you're going from something like LFR/N T19 to H/M T20.

The talent choices required and the enormous survivability/dps losses from foregoing 4pc T19 are simply not worth the extremely minimal bonus you get from T20. Supposedly they're going to tune T20 sets before Tomb actually releases, but right now you're better off just rolling the dice for TF'd T19. The ilvl gap required to make T20 better is enormous.

To put it into perspective, T20 is a combined 1.75% damage reduction if you don't pick up every Sigil talent. With all of them, it's a max of 7% with all leaps used exclusively for sigil and perfect micromanagement of the debuff. You get double that (or more) in phys damage reduction with T19 4pc, in addition to the gigantic DPS gain from using Razor Spikes, all without sacrificing mobility or having to micromanage a debuff. Sure it's magic vs. pure physical, but 5-7% magic reduction isn't making or breaking encounters. Permanent uptime on your 30-40% phys damage reduction, however, will.

Again, I expect that the T20 values will either skyrocket or be completely redesigned, otherwise you're looking at rolling for TF'd T19 indefinitely (along with numerous other specs in similar situations).

[redfella]

Blizzard said they'd disable T19 bonus in Tomb if people kept using it.

[Temp name]

Blizzard said they'd disable T19 bonus in Tomb if people kept using it.

Which is completely the wrong way to go about it.. If people keep using old bonuses, fixing the new ones should be the way to fix it

[Tech614]

In my opinion, as it stands right now, there's absolutely zero reason to upgrade to T20 unless you're going from something like LFR/N T19 to H/M T20.

The talent choices required and the enormous survivability/dps losses from foregoing 4pc T19 are simply not worth the extremely minimal bonus you get from T20. Supposedly they're going to tune T20 sets before Tomb actually releases, but right now you're better off just rolling the dice for TF'd T19. The ilvl gap required to make T20 better is enormous.

To put it into perspective, T20 is a combined 1.75% damage reduction if you don't pick up every Sigil talent. With all of them, it's a max of 7% with all leaps used exclusively for sigil and perfect micromanagement of the debuff. You get double that (or more) in phys damage reduction with T19 4pc, in addition to the gigantic DPS gain from using Razor Spikes, all without sacrificing mobility or having to micromanage a debuff. Sure it's magic vs. pure physical, but 5-7% magic reduction isn't making or breaking encounters. Permanent uptime on your 30-40% phys damage reduction, however, will.

Again, I expect that the T20 values will either skyrocket or be completely redesigned, otherwise you're looking at rolling for TF'd T19 indefinitely (along with numerous other specs in similar situations).

Yea...

The set bonus is not that good.

Unless you're extremely lucky and got near 925 rolls on a 4 pc it's going to be easily replaced. Even in mythic+ where the bonus is much stronger then raids it's not worth dropping 15 ilvls on 4 pieces for. Ever.

[Semperfi1982]

Is the 7.2 guide still coming said it was being added Sunday but it's not here unless I missed it lol

[pay928]

Is the 7.2 guide still coming said it was being added Sunday but it's not here unless I missed it lol

Looks like the WoWhead and IV guides were updated but not the text in OP.

[Munkky]

In my opinion, as it stands right now, there's absolutely zero reason to upgrade to T20 unless you're going from something like LFR/N T19 to H/M T20.

The talent choices required and the enormous survivability/dps losses from foregoing 4pc T19 are simply not worth the extremely minimal bonus you get from T20. Supposedly they're going to tune T20 sets before Tomb actually releases, but right now you're better off just rolling the dice for TF'd T19. The ilvl gap required to make T20 better is enormous.

To put it into perspective, T20 is a combined 1.75% damage reduction if you don't pick up every Sigil talent. With all of them, it's a max of 7% with all leaps used exclusively for sigil and perfect micromanagement of the debuff. You get double that (or more) in phys damage reduction with T19 4pc, in addition to the gigantic DPS gain from using Razor Spikes, all without sacrificing mobility or having to micromanage a debuff. Sure it's magic vs. pure physical, but 5-7% magic reduction isn't making or breaking encounters. Permanent uptime on your 30-40% phys damage reduction, however, will.

Again, I expect that the T20 values will either skyrocket or be completely redesigned, otherwise you're looking at rolling for TF'd T19 indefinitely (along with numerous other specs in similar situations).

What Tech said. In raiding, atleast in the current meta of using Fracture, the T19 2/4pcs are pretty shit. They are definitely a buff, but you are over valuing it. We don't Soul Cleave enough to make it incredibly strong, and it is really only good in M+. Also you don't use it for Razor Spikes for ST, that's only for AoE.

- - - Updated - - -

Is the 7.2 guide still coming said it was being added Sunday but it's not here unless I missed it lol

I updated this guide as well, but like Pay said, the main 2 guides are up to date. The only thing that "changes" with this patch is simply the artifact. Nothing else changes in gameplay or choices.

[Nahela]

What Tech said. In raiding, atleast in the current meta of using Fracture, the T19 2/4pcs are pretty shit. They are definitely a buff, but you are over valuing it. We don't Soul Cleave enough to make it incredibly strong, and it is really only good in M+. Also you don't use it for Razor Spikes for ST, that's only for AoE.

I'm frequently full of unpopular opinions, but honestly I feel like the community dramatically overvalues Fracture for raiding. The DPS gain is minimal and it's no better for survivability than just synergizing T19 with Soul Cleave. The only real time to use it is Krosus, where Spikes is irrelevant, but even then it's a marginal gain. At worst you're missing out on a few stacks of Painbringer over the course of the fight, but never when it matters given how easy it is to grab 5 souls at high damage points.

In theorycrafting it works, sure, but in actual practice the differences are minimal or non-existent except for a few outliers. I certainly respect the work that goes into said theorycrafting, but it seems like a lot of folks took Fracture as definitive and never looked back, without actually looking for themselves.

[Khiyone]

The DPS gain is minimal and it's no better for survivability than just synergizing T19 with Soul Cleave.

The difference between the top log and highest non-Fracture log on Krosus is over 100k DPS. While yes, you can argue that there are issues with sample bias etc., it still seems quite disingenuous to call it a minimal DPS gain in lieu of this. Fracture does almost quadruple Soul Cleave's damage per pain.

[Munkky]

I'm frequently full of unpopular opinions, but honestly I feel like the community dramatically overvalues Fracture for raiding. The DPS gain is minimal and it's no better for survivability than just synergizing T19 with Soul Cleave. The only real time to use it is Krosus, where Spikes is irrelevant, but even then it's a marginal gain. At worst you're missing out on a few stacks of Painbringer over the course of the fight, but never when it matters given how easy it is to grab 5 souls at high damage points.

In theorycrafting it works, sure, but in actual practice the differences are minimal or non-existent except for a few outliers. I certainly respect the work that goes into said theorycrafting, but it seems like a lot of folks took Fracture as definitive and never looked back, without actually looking for themselves.

I do agree with you on some points. I have no problem with unpopular opinions at all, and enjoy those the most, as long as there's data to back it up. The part I primarily agree with you on is Fracture being overvalued for survivability, somewhat.

I did a little bit of log comparison between myself and your logs, scaling for time and what not. I did find that our survivability was very close, including comparisons with your Prydaz and your extremely high uptime on DS. Obviously different fights are different and strats are a factor.

The Survivability side of fracture isn't really painbringer (Krosus being the exception because you can have incredibly high uptime on 5 stacks), it's more so about not capping pain and still having the ability to Soul Cleave if you need the heal or to Demon Spikes when needed, it's also to build souls so that you can get that burst heal or to have souls ready for Soul Barrier on the cast. The 4 seconds of Painbringer after that just aids in stabilizing you while the healers focus back on you or to let you build up some pain for a heal or Demon Spikes if needed. As far as Demon Spikes is concerned, while I'm only a few bosses in, many others have agreed with me on this point. I don't feel like I NEED more uptime on it. Between the amount we have passively and Soul Barrier, I haven't felt "starved" for DS charges. I often feel like I have it too much and can't get my burst in fast enough.


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For dps I found that there wasn't a huge difference between us. However, at the maximums, there is no doubt that Fracture is better for dps. Yes there is often a non Fracture player in the top 12 or so, but the damage difference between him and the top 10 or so are usually decent sized.

Doing some comparisons between the top non fracture parse, the Rank 1 parse and roughly middle between there.

Boss Non Fracture - Middle - Rank 1 - Difference between top and non fracture
Rank 12 Chrono - 481k - 513k - 665k - 184k
Rank 11 Trilliax - 407k - 420k - 469k - 62k
Rank 11 Spell - 368k - 410k - 474k - 106k
Rank 9 Botanist - 333k - 348k - 386k - 53k
Rank 19 Krosus - 426k - 458k - 527k - 101k

So looking at these 5 fights, the difference is definitely noticeable. Also I do understand that this is looking at the maximums and that the vast majority of the player base will not achieve this. However this data is definity enough to prove that Fracture is superior for dps.

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All of this being said, Fracture isn't really taken for survivability as much as for the dps. Which is why I have Feed the Demon as the "surv" talent. It's just that Feed and Soul Rending aren't "amazing" in raid, so the surv increase isn't as good as the dps increase of Fracture, and the community focuses heavily on the dps side of things these days. With parses being so important for finding a guild and comparing yourself as there isn't an easy way to compare yourself surv wise.

[Nahela]

I appreciate that you were willing to take the time to read the post and discuss the topic!

I guess my position is more 'in practice' than theoretical maximums. I find there's very, very few cases where you're getting your maximum on Progression, and beyond that it's largely a moot point aside from e-peening logs. I just feel that Fracture is a bit of a trap for the vast majority of the playerbase. We struggle with survivability, not DPS, when it comes to Mythic raiding. While the alternatives on that tier aren't spectacular, focusing on Soul Cleave and permanent DS fills in some of the gaps.

I typically do a majority of my own healing (40-50% worth) on any given fight. I'd need to look at more data, but it seems like those using Fracture take significantly more external healing. It's always been my feeling that even on the hard DPS checks you're not making or breaking a fight on optimizing your tank's DPS (Heroic Garrosh notwithstanding), you're making that fight by optimizing your tank's survivability so the DPS can play slightly riskier and healers can back them up.

But, perhaps that's an outdated way of thinking. Regardless, it may just show that we're in a time where we do have similar playstyle options, and that's never a bad thing.

[Munkky]

Oh I completely understand what you're saying. Basically people are putting too much into Fracture and are requiring more attention etc. I do agree with that and for the general player base that is a bad thing I agree. That's why I try to push survivability more so than dps onto people. Like I said though, more of a "mentality of the community" type of deal. If you have any suggestions on how I can better word things then by all means, I do agree that having 95% uptime on DS could help a ton of people complaining about our viability.

[Arthrix]

Whats the priority on points spending? All the new stuff up to 1 point in the Legionfall one then the old 4th points?

[Munkky]

Whats the priority on points spending? All the new stuff up to 1 point in the Legionfall one then the old 4th points?

Check out the guides. The first post here is also updated.

[kabnine]

From a dps perspective, if you have 5 souls up with the new artefact talent, is it worth hitting soul cleave or still a dps loss?

[Tech614]

From a dps perspective, if you have 5 souls up with the new artefact talent, is it worth hitting soul cleave or still a dps loss?

If you have 5 souls up and SB is on CD(and you aren't saving the 5 for something in particular ofc) then you should obviously be hitting Soul Cleave with or without the talent otherwise you're wasting resources. Unless you want to run around like a jackass picking them up. I personally don't miss pre legion brewmaster gameplay.

[kabnine]

If I am at full health and don't need healing, I am usually spamming Fracture regardless of how many shards are up. Hence the 'from a dps perspective' opener and 'dps loss' closing.

Another way of phrasing it is, am I better of using soul cleave with the 5 shards over fracture for dps? (ST and cleave?)

[Munkky]

If I am at full health and don't need healing, I am usually spamming Fracture regardless of how many shards are up. Hence the 'from a dps perspective' opener and 'dps loss' closing.

Another way of phrasing it is, am I better of using soul cleave with the 5 shards over fracture for dps? (ST and cleave?)

In general no. It is only better to try to use the new trait for last hit scenarios. Fracture is still better in general.

[ravell]

Just to tell how much I love you Munky for all work you've done here. Thank you a lot :*

[Munkky]

Just to tell how much I love you Munky for all work you've done here. Thank you a lot :*

Thank you! I didn't do it alone, but thank you for the support.

Also Final Boss today at 4pm est is Vengeance with myself and Delimit.