Arena ruined PvP

[Sunlighthell]

Blizzard decided that melee should lolwingetglad on every season it seems. 500k HITS while dots ticking in range of 12-40k. Nice.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Yes.

Because, it was obviously good call, when they listening to the 99% and created WoD

<stops reading there because of the laughing>

Just... what? XD

You people are like Trump supporters. You make absolutely no sense in your rants. XD

[nspeil]

<stops reading there because of the laughing>

Just... what? XD

You people are like Trump supporters. You make absolutely no sense in your rants. XD

Why you hate trump?

[Matthias]

So after like 10 years WoW PvP is ruined by Arena? A lot of things changed in PvP since Vanilla blaming Arena is just silly. It would be interesting to see what would happen if RBGs were introduced first, and while I like RBGs I prefer Arena, RBGs I find way too tedious, flag spinning, coordinating CC chains on healers, etc. Especially before the flag debuff.

Ashran show'd that mass PvP isn't that fun anymore because these days you have to deal with a stampede of freaking pets cause it seems like every class has one now in some form of fashion.

A huge thing though I think is just apathy in the WoW community. I mean back in Vanilla and even TBC if one faction was being douchey, the other faction just wouldn't stand for it. If lowbies cried in Ironforge appealing for help that the Wetlands had been invaded by Horde, thus they can't quest or take the boat, the Alliance would stop spamming LFG in Trade Chat and rush over to push them out.

There would be fights on the Isle of Quel'danas all the time as soon as those Alliance brats got out of school, however at that point the addition of Resilence gear really split the community. Where as in Vanilla you could jump between PvP and PvE no problem, in TBC > MoP if you had no PvP gear you had no chance against gankers that did.

WoTLK didn't really have a zone like Quel'danas or Timeless Isle for griefers to start a brawl, that along with the theme of The Lich King being a clear threat we should unite against I feel made Horde vs Alliance relations far less hostile between players. Then at some point it became possible to faction change your character and even have characters of a different faction on the same server ON A PVP SERVER! (Blizz WTF). Before if you wanted to faction change you had to commit to leveling an entire new character on a different server.

If your on a PvP server these days and the opposite faction is ganking said area, you can just roll your eyes and server xfer via Group Finder.

[Kagthul]

So after like 10 years WoW PvP is ruined by Arena?

After 10 years? No, pretty much from day 1 of Arena it's been ruining PvP.

A lot of things changed in PvP since Vanilla blaming Arena is just silly. It would be interesting to see what would happen if RBGs were introduced first, and while I like RBGs I prefer Arena, RBGs I find way too tedious, flag spinning, coordinating CC chains on healers, etc. Especially before the flag debuff.

You prefer button smash mongo PvP, apparently, because prior to the current xpac, CC chains on healers and other tactical ch oices were a mainstay of Arena as well.

Ashran show'd that mass PvP isn't that fun anymore because these days you have to deal with a stampede of freaking pets cause it seems like every class has one now in some form of fashion.

Yeah.. that was not why most people found Ashran un-fun. Most people found it un-fun because Blizz designed it relatively poorly. It's a strategic-level experience where they forgot to make the strategy matter, so it fell back to a tactical "mob the area" giant furball deathmatch.

Which was, quite honestly, NEVER fun, not even in Vanilla. TM/SS happened because there was simply no other PvP to be had, not because it was such great fun.

A huge thing though I think is just apathy in the WoW community.

Sure, i can agree with this.

I mean back in Vanilla and even TBC if one faction was being douchey, the other faction just wouldn't stand for it. If lowbies cried in Ironforge appealing for help that the Wetlands had been invaded by Horde, thus they can't quest or take the boat, the Alliance would stop spamming LFG in Trade Chat and rush over to push them out.

There would be fights on the Isle of Quel'danas all the time as soon as those Alliance brats got out of school, however at that point the addition of Resilence gear really split the community.

... not sure you know what you're talking about here. PvE gear was statted so much better, and in most cases, had higher iLevels than PvP gear that if you were in full top-tier raid gear, you were fine in wPvP, particularly in TBC and LK. Almost all of the top comps used 50/50 PvE/PvP gear because PvE gear was still so good in PvP.

Where as in Vanilla you could jump between PvP and PvE no problem, in TBC > MoP if you had no PvP gear you had no chance against gankers that did.

Eh... in TBC and Wrath, you were fine in PvE gear if you were in current top-tier raid gear. In MoP.... if you were wearing PvP gear in World PvP you got obliterated in 2-3 globals by Dragonslayers. Their gear was almost 30 iLevels higher (and even higher during the end, IIRC)

WoTLK didn't really have a zone like Quel'danas or Timeless Isle for griefers to start a brawl, that along with the theme of The Lich King being a clear threat we should unite against I feel made Horde vs Alliance relations far less hostile between players. Then at some point it became possible to faction change your character and even have characters of a different faction on the same server ON A PVP SERVER! (Blizz WTF). Before if you wanted to faction change you had to commit to leveling an entire new character on a different server.

I agree, these are all problems. Loss of server community really hurt the game in ALL areas, not just PvP, but it really hurt PvP A LOT. Allowing alt-faction characters on PvP servers was an awful decision.

If your on a PvP server these days and the opposite faction is ganking said area, you can just roll your eyes and server xfer via Group Finder.

HOnestly, if i wasnt against giving Blizzard money to fix their own fuck up, i'd have transferred all of my characters off of a PvP realm years ago.

I rolled on a PvP realm at launch because there was no such thing as a Battleground, and i wanted to PvP.

I can get all the PvP i want (which isnt much, this xpac, as PvP is absoltely assfucked right now) without needing to be on a PvP server.. i just refuse to give Blizz over ~100 to transfer my toons and guild.

[Deleted]

Arena is just disgusting with the current game mechanics. The lag sure doesn't make it better...
Today me and another priest stood on top of each other in an arena and pressed fear at the same time, both fears missed. What a time to be alive

Also class balance is quite fucked.

[jasoccx]

If you dont like arena just go do RBGs, they have all your objective based small scale gameplay you mentioned

[Uoyredrum]

Arena didn't ruin pvp, bad class changes ruined pvp.

[nspeil]

Arena didn't ruin pvp, bad class changes ruined pvp.

Arena ruined class changes. It definitely ruined PVP.

[Yoshimiko]

You people are like Trump supporters. You make absolutely no sense in your rants. XD

Click pvp balance discussion. first post I see is a liberal trying to push politics. What the hell.


@Saberstrike: I think a lot of things ruined PVP. I also don't think WoW pvp was ever in /that/ good of a place - though I must say WOTLK(pre-ICC) and Season 2/early season 3(pre-glaives) was quite enjoyable in Arena and PVP. I still enjoy S2/3/5.

BGs were quite fun then, as well. The problem is how stream-lined they've attempted to make pvp. Arenas have ONE win-con - burst someone before the healer can heal. You have fringe comps attempting to push the long game, but it's rare they survive. Back in BC/early wotlk we had multiple win conditions. Leech mana out, hard CC chain, outlast, burst...and all of these had counterplay to them. Now it's just whomever can 60%->0% burst the bestest. Healers are too powerful, everyones survivability is too high and it turns every fight into a long slog-fest.

MoP, WoD and Legion have been the least enjoyable arena and bg seasons for me since release - and I was a warlock in classic.

[Stormspellz]

Arena ruined class changes. It definitely ruined PVP.

That makes no sense, pve's had to many abilities never used in dragonslaying so they got pruned, which turned everyone in both pve/pvp rotation bots.

[Uoyredrum]

Arena ruined class changes. It definitely ruined PVP.

How did arena ruin class changes?

[Saberstrike]

How did arena ruin class changes?

Well for example -- if we take 3v3 being 2 dps 1 healer it means a healer should comfortably survive 2 dps. Now, anyone who's played BGs recently knows why that was a stupid idea, but we're stuck with it because 'hurr durr 3v3 balance and i dont care that 3 healers in one team in a bg make the game borderline unlayable'. Small-scale changes to make a small-scale bracket 'balanced' ruin every other bracket. The worst of it goes to world pvp where it's literally impossible to bring down tanks or healers any more.

Dragonslaying is a part of it, sure. But templates and pvp talents were supposed to fix that. To a degree they did, but just as I predicted -- when everyone is almost equal, the bad design will become even more of a glaring issue. And that's exactly what happened.

[Stormspellz]

Well for example -- if we take 3v3 being 2 dps 1 healer it means a healer should comfortably survive 2 dps. Now, anyone who's played BGs recently knows why that was a stupid idea, but we're stuck with it because 'hurr durr 3v3 balance and i dont care that 3 healers in one team in a bg make the game borderline unlayable'. Small-scale changes to make a small-scale bracket 'balanced' ruin every other bracket. The worst of it goes to world pvp where it's literally impossible to bring down tanks or healers any more.

Dragonslaying is a part of it, sure. But templates and pvp talents were supposed to fix that. To a degree they did, but just as I predicted -- when everyone is almost equal, the bad design will become even more of a glaring issue. And that's exactly what happened.

its never been easier to mongo down healers, the world pvp is victim of pve scaling and nothing to do with arena ruining class changes

[Cheze]

I definitely think arena led them to rethinking class design/balance in a way that ultimately led toward increasing homogenization; whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you

mostly I just think there is not enough of a varied meta in this game to make small group pvp very interesting; 5s is dead, they've long since given up really trying to balance 2s, and it looks like 3s is now dying out as well

[Uoyredrum]

Well for example -- if we take 3v3 being 2 dps 1 healer it means a healer should comfortably survive 2 dps. Now, anyone who's played BGs recently knows why that was a stupid idea, but we're stuck with it because 'hurr durr 3v3 balance and i dont care that 3 healers in one team in a bg make the game borderline unlayable'. Small-scale changes to make a small-scale bracket 'balanced' ruin every other bracket. The worst of it goes to world pvp where it's literally impossible to bring down tanks or healers any more.

Dragonslaying is a part of it, sure. But templates and pvp talents were supposed to fix that. To a degree they did, but just as I predicted -- when everyone is almost equal, the bad design will become even more of a glaring issue. And that's exactly what happened.

The problem is that your example isn't what happened at all. A healer should not be able to comfortably survive 2 dps by itself - it should be able to survive 2 dps WITH ASSISTANCE. That means your teammates peeling plus your own healing and utility should allow you to survive. By yourself, you should die pretty quickly. That's traditionally how it's been too. I can't speak on the current state of the game because I quit pretty early into legion, but I can tell you for example that in BC/WotLK that's how it was, especially in WoTLK.

The problem with the class changes is when blizzard decided that in order for every class to feel more powerful as time went on, each class needed to keep gaining more abilities and more utility to the point where everyone gained an interrupt, stun, cc, silence and multiple burst cooldowns. They started giving healers crazy mobility and multiple CC and things just got stupid. They then decided to prune half the abilities because they realized that the classes were too bloated but they did a horrible job and it didn't make things any better (cataclysm).

None of this was the fault of arena. WotLK was the second expansion with arena and arena, bgs and pve were all doing great and had been since arena was released. It had literally nothing to do with arena, it was their bad decision making that ruined the experience for everyone.

[nspeil]

The problem is that your example isn't what happened at all. A healer should not be able to comfortably survive 2 dps by itself - it should be able to survive 2 dps WITH ASSISTANCE. That means your teammates peeling plus your own healing and utility should allow you to survive. By yourself, you should die pretty quickly. That's traditionally how it's been too. I can't speak on the current state of the game because I quit pretty early into legion, but I can tell you for example that in BC/WotLK that's how it was, especially in WoTLK.

The problem with the class changes is when blizzard decided that in order for every class to feel more powerful as time went on, each class needed to keep gaining more abilities and more utility to the point where everyone gained an interrupt, stun, cc, silence and multiple burst cooldowns. They started giving healers crazy mobility and multiple CC and things just got stupid. They then decided to prune half the abilities because they realized that the classes were too bloated but they did a horrible job and it didn't make things any better (cataclysm).

None of this was the fault of arena. WotLK was the second expansion with arena and arena, bgs and pve were all doing great and had been since arena was released. It had literally nothing to do with arena, it was their bad decision making that ruined the experience for everyone.

It hasn't worked.
It never worked.
It will never work.

I have met very, very few people who did arena for fun. In TBC people did arena because it was the easiest way to gear up.

In WoTLK people did arena because it was the easiest way to gear up.

Same with Cata.
Same with MoP.
Same with WoD.

In Legion gear has been removed from arena and... wait... w-what? Nobody is doing it anymore? I wonder why!

It's not fun. Most players don't find it fun. It isn't fun to play or watch. It is silly. It's just silly.

Thankfully statistics back me up on this.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=15#post-287

[Nuba]

arena is the competitive side of PvP, much like mythic raiding race is the competitive side of PvE.
PvE isn't only mythic raiding with ultra high difficult, as much as PvP isn't only about Arena and being good at the game.
Arena, however, much as high-tier PvE, is where you can test yourself.

Another thing, on topic as well, is that I believe OP should be banned simply because of clickbait title

[nspeil]

arena is the competitive side of PvP, much like mythic raiding race is the competitive side of PvE.

A moba minigame in a mmorpg is competitive side of PVP. LOL.

DELETE ARENA.

- - - Updated - - -

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=15#post-283

40v40 or other large scale PvP is something that has and always will appeal to the masses. This was at one point an MMO game.

It's amusing that entire servers like Venture Co, Bleeding Hollow and ED were based solely around large scale World PvP. In their prime these were some of the most populated realms in the game.

Wintergrasp and Tol'Borad always brought in a lot of players and having a reward at the end of it didn't hurt either.

Ashran was a solid attempt but was poorly done. I will happily admit that Ashran to me (pre-change to 40v40) was one of my favorite things about WoD.

The argument goes both ways. People who think 3v3 is "real PvP" make laugh. Want small scale? Go play one of those garbage MOBA games. Blizzard tried small scale in WoW and it just isn't working.

Unfortunately large scale now wouldn't work either. Too much AOE, a complete disregard on the assist train, too much damage, too little healing... it just would not work in current WoW.

But hey arena is dead and the tears of the arena kiddies makes me laugh.

[Cæli]

arenas are lowering the general quality of the game