"Pay to Win"

[Elim Garak]

Here's a picture to tell you whether a game is pay 2 win.

The picture is wrong

[Deleted]

Is it directly "pay to win"?
No it is not.

Does it have elements of "pay to win"?
It undeniebly does, albeit these are indirect.

Does it have enough "pay to win"-elements to be called a "pay to win game"?
No, only someone with severe issues; having problems seeing the world as anything but extremes would say it does.

Also: unbanned again, eh?

[Fabinas]

Nothing but an attack on me again.



What argument? You do not have one, all you do is point out how it has merit, yet you have not had a single argument, just attacks on me.


There isn't much more to say then a single word when all you do is attack me personally..



Except, it does not, you earned that gold by playing the game, not by buying it. As you have said, there are many aspects of the game, so as long as you get the money through playing the game, it is not p2w.




Again, they are more then sufficient, you just cant come over the fact that it is p2w. I have defined it properly, you are the only one who gets stuck on this.

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If you just argue against what is said instead then you might make a point, stating that you do not care for an answer unless its like you want to have it is not discussing anything it is just trying to derail the discussion.

Don't answer for others. Answer for yourself. You didn't even bother with the questions I asked, so please, spare me and others of your derailing.

[Laqweeta]

For all of the people complaining about OP making the post, there's this wonderful thing called "keep scrolling and don't click it" wow, super hard!

Anyways

When a game allows you to buy a coin for real money and then in turn transfer it to gold in-game, allowing you to buy armor pieces on the AH until your IRL wallet is empty, that's P2W. It's not all about armor either, you can in turn level your professions to max as well.

[Elim Garak]

When a game allows you to buy a coin for real money and then in turn transfer it to gold in-game, allowing you to buy armor pieces on the AH until your IRL wallet is empty, that's P2W. It's not all about armor either, you can in turn level your professions to max as well.

No, that's not p2w

[Laqweeta]

No, that's not p2w

Yes it is. A person who can literally buy a coin and transfer it to gold to instantly get crafted armor on the AH gives a clear and distinct advantage from someone who doesn't have IRL money and must "grind" in-game to get said armor pieces etc. People with money can effectively skip some content and get a power boost over people with 0 money.

Pay
To
Win

[Elim Garak]

Yes it is. A person who can literally buy a coin and transfer it to gold to instantly get crafted armor on the AH gives a clear and distinct advantage from someone who doesn't have IRL money and must "grind" in-game to get said armor pieces etc. People with money can effectively skip some content and get a power boost over people with 0 money.

Pay
To
Win

No, you are wrong.

[Laqweeta]

No, you are wrong.

"You paid money for an advantage. That's it, you paid to win. Nothing else defines the term. Nothing there says anything about the ability or inability of to earn said items whether through time, effort, skill, or any combination"

Paid money to xfer coin to gold to buy gear - Check
Paid money to xfer coin to gold to level professions - Check
Paid money to xfer coin to gold to buy increased flight speed - Check

Advantage

[Elim Garak]

"You paid money for an advantage. That's it, you paid to win. Nothing else defines the term. Nothing there says anything about the ability or inability of to earn said items whether through time, effort, skill, or any combination"

Paid money to xfer coin to gold to buy gear - Check
Paid money to xfer coin to gold to level professions - Check
Paid money to xfer coin to gold to buy increased flight speed - Check

Advantage

Reread my two previous replies to you. Then read all my posts in this thread.

[Fabinas]

The point, which you somehow missed, is that the only party that can be paid legally and in compliance with ToS is the developer/publisher. Therefore it is redundant to explicitly spell it out. But feel free to mentally spell it out when you see the definition: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with money."

I want you to be explicit and accurate so I and others can discuss your point of view. Not MeHMeH's, he's here to troll. If you don't put it down on a post as a basis for discussion, people will come and spew nonsense, derailing the discussion. If you want to keep on repeating the same vague definition, then I'll spend my time on some other thread, because I'm bored repeating the same request again and again. I'll leave you and MeHMeH to discuss a nonsensical topic with no basis whatsoever.

[Deleted]

Don't answer for others. Answer for yourself. You didn't even bother with the questions I asked, so please, spare me and others of your derailing.

Of course i do not bother with spelling out how cheating isn't p2w. The only one derailing here is you with stupid questions that have no baring what so all at the discussion at hand.

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I want you to be explicit and accurate so I and others can discuss your point of view. Not MeHMeH's, he's here to troll. If you don't put it down on a post as a basis for discussion, people will come and spew nonsense, derailing the discussion. If you want to keep on repeating the same vague definition, then I'll spend my time on some other thread, because I'm bored repeating the same request again and again. I'll leave you and MeHMeH to discuss a nonsensical topic with no basis whatsoever.

Again the only one derailing anything here is you with stupid questions and stuff like this.

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Here's a picture to tell you whether a game is pay 2 win.

So much this, this is exactly describes what p2w is. /thread

[Vaelorian]

I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Pay to Win in WoW:
As long as I can remember there haven't been a single time where you could buy armor/weapons from the AH that would get you an advantage over raiders. No do not reply due to what I just wrote, keep reading... > "Winning" as it stands in WoW is going for a good high rank on the world progress ladder. Be it PvP or PvE. Crafted or BoE stuff that drops in high end raids won't give you an advantage over those people providing those very items on the AH. They are already decked out higher or equal to those FEW items that one can craft/buy from the AH.

So while you can buy items with real life money - it won't matter on the grand scale of things.
Do you have an advantage over people who do not have real life currency to spend on gear on the AH? Yeah you do. But it won't matter.

The only way you get ahead with IRL currency is that you just made it easier for yourself to "be faster on par" with medium guilds. You can throw yourself into the fray faster then someone who does not have money to spend. Still it is not WINNING.

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So much this, this is exactly describes what p2w is. /thread

Yeah it describes that. I give you that. Does this picture describe WoW? No it does not. Ergo WoW is not pay to win.

Can you buy things such as exp boosts etc etc. Yeah but only to match everyone else who starts playing an expansion. It won't give you maxlevel. So it is not getting ahead of everyone else.

[Salty Maud]

34 pages, someone must have mentioned this n+1 times, but BoE and titanforging. You CAN buy power that helps in the relevant content because trash epics are a thing and those trash epics can titanforge to 925 just like everything else. Does this mean that WoW is now definitely a P2W game, nah, but it means that it has at least a little bit of P2W element to it.

It honestly surprises me that they did not remove BoE epics from the game when they introduced buying gold to the game.

It is a well known RPG element, where you decide for yourself what winning is, often compared with your regulars. Certainly not with the elitists who would only approve of a 1st place in rankings as winning.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

[Deleted]

I want you to be explicit and accurate so I and others can discuss your point of view.

I was. Part of being accurate is not being redundant. It would be redundant to specify that the party being paid is the developer/publisher, because they are the only party that can be legally paid.

Just because you can steal an iPhone doesn't mean iPhones are free. Just because you can buy gold from a hacker doesn't mean the game is pay2win.

[Deleted]

I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Pay to Win in WoW:
As long as I can remember there haven't been a single time where you could buy armor/weapons from the AH that would get you an advantage over raiders. No do not reply due to what I just wrote, keep reading... > "Winning" as it stands in WoW is going for a good high rank on the world progress ladder. Be it PvP or PvE. Crafted or BoE stuff that drops in high end raids won't give you an advantage over those people providing those very items on the AH. They are already decked out higher or equal to those FEW items that one can craft/buy from the AH.

So while you can buy items with real life money - it won't matter on the grand scale of things.
Do you have an advantage over people who do not have real life currency to spend on gear on the AH? Yeah you do.* But it won't matter.

The only way you get ahead with IRL currency is that you just made it easier for yourself to "be faster on par" with medium guilds. You can throw yourself into the fray faster then someone who does not have money to spend. Still it is not WINNING.

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Yeah it describes that. I give you that. Does this picture describe WoW? No it does not. Ergo WoW is not pay to win.

Can you buy things such as exp boosts etc etc. Yeah but only to match everyone else who starts playing an expansion. It won't give you maxlevel. So it is not getting ahead of everyone else.

So you can not buy gold in wow? And with that gold you can buy items that give more xp and with normal money you can buy xp boosts. Of course you can only buy until the start of the expansion, that doesn't make it any less p2w.

Wow has p2w aspects in them, are they really bad? No, not in my opinion, but that doesn't make it any less p2w. The point is that you can pay cash to skip content and even get boosted through the highest tier of content that there is atm.

And as for "winning" in wow, its all about what you want out of the game. Maybe you are really into pet battles, then wow certainly is p2w as there are many pets behind a paywall. If you say that "winning in wow" means that you must have a high ranking in something then there are like 20 people who win at wow every tier, that seems rather stupid.
Pay to "Win" in a game like this is getting an advantage by paying cash.

*funny how something can give you an advantage that you paid with real money in a game, yet it isn't p2w!? Why?

[Salty Maud]

BoE stuff that drops in high end raids won't give you an advantage over those people providing those very items on the AH. They are already decked out higher or equal to those FEW items that one can craft/buy from the AH.

What if you were part of the world first race and during the heroic week of NH some random unrelated dood killed the first trash on normal and got a 925 socket leech trash epic and decided to put it up for sale in the auction house for exorbitant amount of gold? This item is a decent boost to your performance and might even help kill a boss or two one attempt earlier and you decide to buy the gold to afford the item, would you in this case be buying power where it is actually relevant to "winning" anything?

[Deleted]

i think wow will never become Pay2Win

[Deleted]

Because compared to other, real p2w games. WoW doesn't even come close. And when there are no winning conditions like in WoW, no WoW can be won for any amount of money.

That something isn't that bad doesn't mean that its not there.
And if there are no winning conditions to wow then you might as well sell bis gear in the cash shop, right? As it would still not be p2w..

[Deleted]

So while you can buy items with real life money - it won't matter on the grand scale of things.
Do you have an advantage over people who do not have real life currency to spend on gear on the AH? Yeah you do. But it won't matter.

You are wrong. I remember for example at the beginning of WoD that the endgame guilds had to pay big money on the auction house to get the best gear possible for the Highmaul progression race. That shit was expensive and you either had two options. Wasting your life away grinding gold, or pulling your credit card. It's effectively pay to win.

The beginning of Legion was also expensive as fuck. Progression guilds were burning through gold. Being able to pull your credit card to get rid of that problem is just pay to win. Deal with it.

[Deleted]

The picture is wrong

No, you are.

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i think wow will never become Pay2Win

It already is lol

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Yeah it describes that. I give you that. Does this picture describe WoW? No it does not. Ergo WoW is not pay to win.

Can you buy things such as exp boosts etc etc. Yeah but only to match everyone else who starts playing an expansion. It won't give you maxlevel. So it is not getting ahead of everyone else.

You're contradicting yourself. You admit the picture is right, state that according to the picture WoW is not pay 2 win and then say WoW has exp boosts, which according to the picture would make it pay 2 win.

It doesn't matter whether the boost doesn't bring you to max level. First of all, in MoP, when it was introduced, it did bring you to max level. Then they adjusted it to level 100 in WoD. So there were times when the boost brought you to max level. Second of all, you can buy gold, with which you can buy gear for max level. That's an ingame advantage. Case closed.