Question: is wow population really low?

[Ishayu]

Are you one of those people that believe LFD was a cause of sub losses and problems? Because I said earlier in this thread and the data proves it, that subs actually went up in the time it released and stayed that way until Cata. One of the popular things people love to say is that LFD/LFR killed the game but LFD sure doesn't look like it was a cause. I personally don't see either of them as big problems as it let more people get to do things in the game.

There was indeed a small spike up with the release of LFD, but after that the game completely stagnated. With the release of LFR, however, the game started losing subs rapidly.

[Kyanion]

There was indeed a small spike up with the release of LFD, but after that the game completely stagnated. With the release of LFR, however, the game started losing subs rapidly.

I mean a small spike was something important in WotLK because the subs stayed level for so long. Also, "after that" was a good year or so after the release of LFD before subs started to go down and that could be related to Cata making some questionable choices in game design at that point. Maybe LFR was a thing that helped subs continue to slide in Cata sure, but Cata was hated right out of the gate as evidenced by subs leaving fairly early.

[rda]

That is what I mean though, Akka could have explained more but chose to go the route of insulting the person instead of trying to explain what they meant by "activity level" being used as some sort of magical solution to the sub numbers in Legion.

All we really have is incomplete data from an addon, MMO-Champs using armory to put up some information and what Blizz said about subs being slightly higher than WoD. We don't really know at what point in WoD they are comparing to and what they mean by 'slightly'.

I agree Akka could have explained more.

As regards the data from the addon being incomplete, it does not have to be complete for measurements of things like overall activity levels. You don't even have to have numbers from all servers as long as the choice of servers is not biased (and it isn't).

More importantly, I think you are reading too much into what Blizzard said about Legion doing slightly better than WoD. This does not at all mean that Legion has more subs than WoD did at the same period. It might merely mean that Legion is losing subs slower than WoD did. If you think this is too grim / deceptive for them to say, here's a hilariously similar story of what Holinka said about the size of the PVP ladder in season 2:

Legion season 1 was a disaster, the number of people was like 40% less than at the end of WoD. In Legion season 2, the number of people seemed lower than even that, but when Holinka was asked about it in the interview, he said that (a) Legion is doing fine, and (b) that, for example, the number of people who entered the season in the first 12 weeks was slightly higher than that in (some season in) WoD. Now, we don't know whether the numbers he cited were actually true or if they were a product of his creative extrapolation which he did simply because nobody could ever check them. But after season 2 ended we lost another 30% or so.

That right there is how much truth is in these vague statements of the type "Legion is slightly outperforming WoD". They are invariably based on some cherry-picked metric - which in this case isn't even revealed to you. In the end when you hear such vague statements you know things are going bad, because if there was an actual, useful metric which would in fact demonstrate that Legion is doing well, you'd be hearing *those* numbers.

PS: Final disclosure, I think Legion is at about 4 mil subs give or take. Might be 3 mil, might be 5 mil. That's not only from warcraftrealms, not at all, we also have armory scans (thanks MMO-C), wowprogress, arena trackers, other things, and it's somewhat optimistic. That's not quite the disaster of WoD, but it surely isn't any sort of a reversal (no, Legion didn't make people come back to the game, they are still leaving the game, just somewhat slower than in WoD... in line with their vague statement of "it's doing slightly better than WoD", ironically).

[Ishayu]

I mean a small spike was something important in WotLK because the subs stayed level for so long. Also, "after that" was a good year or so after the release of LFD before subs started to go down and that could be related to Cata making some questionable choices in game design at that point. Maybe LFR was a thing that helped subs continue to slide in Cata sure, but Cata was hated right out of the gate as evidenced by subs leaving fairly early.

The problem with Cata was actually very similar to what we see nowadays. The difficulty curve was much easier than in WotLK up until 85, at which point you got hit by a brick wall. Trying to use the LFD system would probably get you into a worthless group, which would simply frustrate you when you were so powerful in WotLK. It felt like a massive nerf, basically.

So yes, Cataclysm did have some questionable design decisions, and LFD was one of them. But instead of fixing the difficulty curve and making different dungeons with different difficulties, they nerfed everything and doubled down on LFD, and then LFR, and the subs somewhat stabilized because now it just had the same flaws that late WotLK did. Sure they caused stagnation, but not drops. Then Pandas came, and everyone had a hissyfit about that.

I remember this particular decision angered Totalbiscuit so much he quit the game. You can probably still find it on his channel, I'd presume. Not that his opinion is the only one that matters, but it gives some context to what happened.

[rda]

I think the population is at an all time low.

Several personal experiences regarding that:

1. During that recent spring holiday, I went to Ungoro in order to trade Spring Fling with someone (that achievement where you have to get someone else to put a rabbit costume onto you). Flying in, typing in /1 "Hey, anyone for Spring Fling?". Typed several times, silence. Checked /who - I am the only guy in the zone. Went to Silithus, same, to Tanaris, same. Just nobody in the zones. That was the second day of the event.

2. Leveling an alt in Outland I saw something like one guy per hour. There was maybe one or two guys in Shattrath, never more, frequently nobody. That's a very populated server, prime time, bla bla bla, for the period of about six weeks (I wanted to max all reps before going to Northrend).

3. Leveling an alt in Northrend I see about the same one guy per hour. Saw zero people in Howling Fjord, just zero. There are slightly more people in Dalaran though - typically at least one, sometimes even three, woohoo.

There are people in Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus. And in Goldrinn. That's about it. Get farther than the seeing distance and you are alone, after all CRZs, you have to be in the Broken Isles to see anyone. And, yes, goddammit, it was different before. I used to see people more often all over the world. It wasn't the desert it is now.

[salate]

Every evening I get a message Ragnaros is full (EU), queue aint that big but ~5-10. My server is full I guess

[rda]

Every evening I get a message Ragnaros is full (EU), queue aint that big but ~5-10. My server is full I guess

That's likely just the product of their server merges (including implicitly via all-covering CRZs), it doesn't mean anything. I am hitting the queue sometimes too, also never anything big (usually "you are 1st in queue", LOL, thanks, that must be some technical gimmick instead of a real queue as I refuse to believe that I am 1st half the time, the numbers just don't work that way), then I get in and there's nobody in the zones outside of Broken Isles.

[Pann]

That's likely just the product of their server merges (including implicitly via all-covering CRZs), it doesn't mean anything. I am hitting the queue sometimes too, also never anything big (usually "you are 1st in queue", LOL, thanks, that must be some technical gimmick instead of a real queue as I refuse to believe that I am 1st half the time, the numbers just don't work that way), then I get in and there's nobody in the zones outside of Broken Isles.

I might be wrong but aren't the log in servers common across all battlenet games? I too have experienced a queue to log in since the launch of Legion yet I never once saw queue (outside of major patch events) in TBC or Wrath when the overall population and that of my server were much larger.

[Paulosio]

What is a good site to look up the actual population of s server? I plan on coming back to wow in the next couple of weeks. Sure hope the population isn't disappearing.

Even if population is lower it makes no difference to your day to day playing... I still have the same people in my raid team as I did at the start of the xpac and I still see just as many players out and about. Queues are no slower than the past etc (not going to comment on pvp queues as I haven't pvp'd since mists).

[Kallisto]

Came in late but I can't let this go without addressing it.
I do lfr as the only form of raiding I do now. I raided before. Lots. For a lot of xpacs, on all difficulties.
Truth of it: I have to work wow around my life now, not the other way around.
It's unfortunate I know... but there goes your theory.
Not only that, but i just got tired of rageface whiny bitchboys who weren't half as good as their bitching drove off friendly, capable raiders.
So now I do lfr, with the chat set to combat data.
Because I have that option and it fits in whenever the fuck I want, rather than tying up a specific day and time of the week.
Blizz could make it like before lfg and I'd still be disinterested, because taking lfr/lfg out doesn't improve the community itself.

What part of my theory was wrong? What you're saying was what I actually mean Oo

[rda]

I might be wrong but aren't the log in servers common across all battlenet games? I too have experienced a queue to log in since the launch of Legion yet I never once saw queue (outside of major patch events) in TBC or Wrath when the overall population and that of my server were much larger.

Yes, they are common. I think these queues are some kind of a technical glitch, or, rather, the reports in the WoW client are outdated and inaccurate. Ie, part of the login sequence is prone to timing out non-critically (meaning the software can repeat just the timed out part of the login instead of doing a full login), when that happens the server reports how many other connections are in the same state as yours, and the client reports that as "there is a queue, you are Xnd". That explains frequent "you are 1st".

[Paulosio]

There are people in Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus. And in Goldrinn. That's about it. Get farther than the seeing distance and you are alone, after all CRZs, you have to be in the Broken Isles to see anyone. And, yes, goddammit, it was different before. I used to see people more often all over the world. It wasn't the desert it is now.

Maybe people levelled most of their alts to 100 at the end of WOD with the invasions (I know I did). I already have plenty of alts. There's little reason for me to be visiting any of the old continents unless i'm travelling to 1 of the old raids for transmog or something.

There's plenty of stuff to do in Legion. For many people, levelling a 10th alt from level 1 to max is something they do when there is literally nothing else in game worth doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they are common. I think these queues are some kind of a technical glitch, or, rather, the reports in the WoW client are outdated and inaccurate. Ie, part of the login sequence is prone to timing out non-critically (meaning the software can repeat just the timed out part of the login instead of doing a full login), when that happens the server reports how many other connections are in the same state as yours, and the client reports that as "there is a queue, you are Xnd". That explains frequent "you are 1st".

Exactly. I'll quite often get a queue of 1... I doubt it's literally because too many people are trying to login. It's just a glitch and it only last about 2 seconds anyway.

[wombinator04]

No, but all the phasing and sharding tech bullshit does make the population look low. Blizz hard capped the amount of people you see in the new zones and Dalaran to a low amount, therefore you just won't see tons of people running around.

I hope Blizzard settles down on the sharding next expansion, but I am mostly convinced it's here to stay, forever.

[Edlarel]

Haven't read through the 20 pages, just addressing the op's question. If you take every current WoW player and put them together, you'd have a population a little over that of New York, NY, US (8 mil+). So per-capita, no the population isn't low.

Interestingly, the diversity would match, as probably would the overall collection/clash of personalities.

[Deleted]

Don't you people ever get tired of your self?
What does it matter if there are 5 million people playing or 10 million?
Does it proof "how you think" bout the game for some reason?
Does how you think about the game really need to be proven by numbers made to fit your little agenda?

I really don't understand why you feel the need to keep creating these shit posts over and over for a game you don't like so that all your little friends can come in and echo your opinion for 19 pages.

Yes the numbers are down but its also true that this can have 100's of reasons.
Thinking its because "I don't like this so 5 million other people don't like it" is just delusional.

I came back to Legion and have been enjoying my self more then I have since mid Cata, really enjoy the expansion.
Can small things be changed for me to enjoy it more? Of course it can! But maybe those small things are enjoyed by 1000's of others.
The game as a whole is still a good game, it has always been a good game.
Just because some choices are made that you don't like doesn't make it a bad game.

[Snackpack]

It's actually kinda annoying with so many on at given times; it's hard to finish quests that require unique items or actions like the withered gathering.

[Teri]

It's actually kinda annoying with so many on at given times; it's hard to finish quests that require unique items or actions like the withered gathering.

I do hate when I'm on an alt, people can steal your withered with the aoe thing, when you still got the channel beam thing.. but lately been seeing some of the wither zones are much much larger then the WQ borders suggest so going near those Ettins for example can yield you a lot of withered with no competition.

At least lots of quest objects are personal now, like chests etc, but not every quest has that.

[rda]

What does it matter if there are 5 million people playing or 10 million?

There are two main reasons to wonder.

First is subjective: is it worth getting into X? am I going to get groups for it, etc. That question up to Legion has been mostly theoretical, but with Legion it starts becoming practical. Ie, the PVP ladder became so small now that (a) after 2000 you queue into the same few teams all evening, (b) after 1800 you have *huge* issues finding teammates, there's just not that many people interested anymore, and you can forget playing the setup you want, you will have to settle for what you have available. Same for raiders who have difficulties recruiting. Same for trading of rare items, etc. At some point this will make zones like Ashran infeasible (low interest), etc, this is going to reflect on the game.

Second is more general: is the game generally going up or down? Ie, is it being good enough to attract more people than it is losing or not? What's the big picture? Because, hey, suppose you are sticking with the game, not liking some of the aspects much, hoping they will improve, but maybe it is collapsing fast and you are better off not waiting for the bright future and jumping ship somewhere else? That's a reasonable thing to be wondering about.

No issues with those who are enjoying Legion at all.

[Extremities]

I don't know, but what I do know is that I play on Sargeras-Alliance side which this server is Alliance heavy and I am surprised to see how little amount of people I see around now. Broken shore is flatout dead. I am not just saying this for shits and giggles, I honestly don't see nearly as many people as I used to(which is normal as expansions go) but this seems like a whole other level. I don't like being one of those doom and gloom types but if Sargeras, one of the highest populated realms in the game shows signs of declined pop, I cannot imagine how the other servers are doing.

[Deleted]

There are two main reasons to wonder.

First is subjective: is it worth getting into X? am I going to get groups for it, etc. That question up to Legion has been mostly theoretical, but with Legion it starts becoming practical. Ie, the PVP ladder became so small now that (a) after 2000 you queue into the same few teams all evening, (b) after 1800 you have *huge* issues finding teammates, there's just not that many people interested anymore, and you can forget playing the setup you want, you will have to settle for what you have available. Same for raiders who have difficulties recruiting. Same for trading of rare items, etc. At some point this will make zones like Ashran infeasible (low interest), etc, this is going to reflect on the game.

Second is more general: is the game generally going up or down? Ie, is it being good enough to attract more people than it is losing or not? What's the big picture? Because, hey, suppose you are sticking with the game, not liking some of the aspects much, hoping they will improve, but maybe it is collapsing fast and you are better off not waiting for the bright future and jumping ship somewhere else? That's a reasonable thing to be wondering about.

No issues with those who are enjoying Legion at all.

First: It really isn't. You will only know a couple of 1000 people at most in this game, you will never meet anyone else. It doesn't change for you if there are 100.000 people playing daily or 10.000.000 people playing.

Second: What does it matter if its going up or down? If you enjoy the game and you play with mates that enjoy it whats the issue? If people don't enjoy it then quit and go play something you do enjoy. Coming here on a forum and make these posts on an almost daily basis is getting old.

And I know how you feel about the game, I been around for a long time and I seen your posts and replies. You've been hating the game for years but you are still here "hoping for it to get better".
Just move on already, I am sure you can find something you actually enjoy instead of making angry posts and replys on a daily basis, thats no way to live your life.