The Horde didn't abandon you!

[Lord Pebbleton]

That it's ridiculous. I thought that was clear.

They had an airship on station above the battle. There were plenty of opportunities for observers to see what happened with the horde retreat both on the way in, and on the way out during the extraction.

The entire situation is so full of plot holes that it probably shouldn't have been released to the public.

And what exactly would the gunship guys see? Vol'jin getting stabbed, Sylvanas calling for aerial retreat, and the rangers on the cliff just leaving at the sound of the horn without even trying to warn the Alliance, with Varian and Genn looking at the rangers disappearing?

If anything, the gunship should have bombed the val'kyrs down, because that very much looks like abandoning brothers-in-arms to me. Seems like they just stuck to trying to save as many alliance soldiers as possible instead of firing at an ex-ally in the middle of a troublesome war, which seems the best choice, albeit not the one the horde deserved.

[Deleted]

...did you not see the giant ledge separating the Horde from the Alliance's vision? It's not like they could see Vol'jin was wounded, or that the Horde was overrun.

Again, as I said earlier, Sylvanas could've sent one of her Val'kyr to inform the Alliance. She could have done many many things. Instead, the Horde simply abandoned the Alliance.

yeah ofcourse they couldn't see what happened. (well aside from their airship but lets ignore that)

why does that mean they wouldn't believe say the silver hands reports of the battles? why wouldn't their spies report on voljins funeral and the obvious change in politics after? Why wouldn't characters and npcs talk about what happened in their class halls? Why wouldn't the myriad of factions who interact with both the horde and alliance ask funny questions when they heard opposite stories from both factions?

[Dalheim]

She went sulking back to her brother in Kul'Tiras, and she'll be there plotting her return in the next expansion #iwanttobelieve

You mean her dead brother? Unless you mean Tandred who's from the RPG and aint cannon.

[Deleted]

And what exactly would the gunship guys see? Vol'jin getting stabbed, Sylvanas calling for aerial retreat, and the rangers on the cliff just leaving at the sound of the horn without even trying to warn the Alliance, with Varian and Genn looking at the rangers disappearing?

If anything, the gunship should have bombed the val'kyrs down, because that very much looks like abandoning brothers-in-arms to me. Seems like they just stuck to trying to save as many alliance soldiers as possible instead of firing at an ex-ally in the middle of a troublesome war, which seems the best choice, albeit not the one the horde deserved.

Any military commander worth their salt would be able to see they were getting overrun.

(also honestly, only a retard wouldn't have made plans for when the battle went south, which you know, was a likely outcome from the get go and everybody knew it)

[Dhrizzle]

Are you kidding me? Why do people try so hard to defend this idiotic story?

Varian commanded Mekkatorque to call in the gunship BEFORE the horde retreated. Which means the airship was on station near the battle. Close enough to see green flares in the middle of a battlefield filled with green crap. Which means it was also close enough to survey the rest of the battlefield.

Give it up already. The entire situation was stupidly presented, and full of cheap contrivances. I'm not even defending the horde's actions. I'm just saying the entire scene was written poorly.

What green flares, do you mean the one Mekkatork let off once the gunship arrived, after be called it in with some doohickey? Where do you consider to be "on station" as it seems far more likely the gunship was kept out of range of the battle to prevent it meeting the same rate as Varian's ship? Don't you think if it was in a position where it could leisurely view the battle it would have done a bit of shooting?

You're literally rewriting the scenario so the airship was already present when even the Horde cinematic shows it arrive after Sylvanas has called the Valkyr and the Horde have sauntered back to their ships.

[Sigxy]

Well... even if the airship showed up after the Horde had left - wouldn't the people on that airship see just how many demons were on the Horde side and think "Oh, that sure is a lot of demons!" and get an idea why they left?

[Deleted]

What green flares, do you mean the one Mekkatork let off once the gunship arrived, after be called it in with some doohickey? Where do you consider to be "on station" as it seems far more likely the gunship was kept out of range of the battle to prevent it meeting the same rate as Varian's ship? Don't you think if it was in a position where it could leisurely view the battle it would have done a bit of shooting?

You're literally rewriting the scenario so the airship was already present when even the Horde cinematic shows it arrive after Sylvanas has called the Valkyr and the Horde have sauntered back to their ships.

on station means close enough that it could reach the battle in a timely manner when called upon (as shown in the cinematic). Since those things can't exactly travel super fast, plus the need to be able to receive non-magic communications just in case, it's likely the ship was in spyglass range of the battle. (like honestly why wouldn't it be, it just makes sense)

[Dhrizzle]

on station means close enough that it could reach the battle in a timely manner when called upon (as shown in the cinematic). Since those things can't exactly travel super fast, plus the need to be able to receive non-magic communications just in case, it's likely the ship was in spyglass range of the battle. (like honestly why wouldn't it be, it just makes sense)

Watch the intro cinematic for Legion, pay particular attention to what happens to Varian's ship to see why it doesn't make sense to have an airship chilling in a position where it could see what's going on over the cliffs.

Even if it was somehow able to be "on station," it's not like the Horde were being overrun when they left, from the Horde cinematic it looks like quite a leisurely stroll back to the ships.

[Deleted]

Watch the intro cinematic for Legion, pay particular attention to what happens to Varian's ship to see why it doesn't make sense to have an airship chilling in a position where it could see what's going on over the cliffs.

Even if it was somehow able to be "on station," it's not like the Horde were being overrun when they left, from the Horde cinematic it looks like quite a leisurely stroll back to the ships.

Well i mean if you wanna take cinematics as absolute gospel, both factions were maybe 50 soldiers each and there were maybe 100 demons total. We both know in the actual game there were also 40 player characters there and a looooot more demons.

If you want to talk about leisurely, as you put it, the way i remember the alliance scenario is walking up to the tomb gate and just waiting there while untargetable mobs in front of you attack you in small waves. While on the horde side there is a constant stream of mobs and all the mobs in the background will also attack if you get to close. and then there is the space ship lazers that i didn't see on the alliance side.

but honestly even if for whatever reason the alliance didn't know what happened during the battle, there is no fucking way they wouldn't have been able to figure it out in the months since, unless there was some royal edict to put fingers in ears and yell "lalalallala" when interrogating prisoners, talking to factions like the silver hand who were also there, talking to class leaders in class halls, all their spies went on vacation, etc.

[Thetruth1400]

One man dying isn't really proof of abandonment or not though, that's the thing. The leaders are prime targets too; kill the head and the snake dies. "Hold the line" means just that, it's not "Hold the line until one guy dies, then retreat instead." Alliance felt that they had the means to end the entire invasion if only the Horde didn't leave the fight. To the Alliance, even if both sides had lost several leaders, it would have been a better outcome for the world if they had been successful and the entire world was saved as a result.

Jaina also has the right to be mad. Pretty much everything she has said about the Horde has been true, and the Horde has been the aggressors through most of it, especially where it hits her personally. Her warnings have gone completely ignored as well, yet the Horde, even if under the guise of "Just following orders" has done some pretty horrible things. Genn Greymane often backs her in this because he too has seen just how horrible the Horde really is.

There is a difference between seeing the benefit, and being willing to be part of it. Sure, she could have done great things to help, but Horde also could have set up base literally anywhere else too. They're using maybe 1/8 of Dalaran exclusively, maybe they should have set up shop somewhere else for such little use and such high cost. Don't tell me it's not possible either, the Broken Shore area we've all set up proves otherwise. To her, the Horde has proven themselves to be nothing but liars, thieves, killers, and most importantly; betrayers. Now I'm not saying she's 100% right in her beliefs, but she's also not wrong. There haven't been too many examples of the Horde not doing something that only benefits themselves at the cost of the Alliance. Sure, it's easier for Horde to be in Dalaran helping. Sure, it was smarter to team up and take down the Warlords. Sure it was better to go in together to clean house in Siege of Org. It's the why did these things happen that she has issues with, not the event itself so to speak.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Any military commander worth their salt would be able to see they were getting overrun.

(also honestly, only a retard wouldn't have made plans for when the battle went south, which you know, was a likely outcome from the get go and everybody knew it)

Watch the cinematic again.
Varian/Genn/Mekkatorque fight, horn blares, rangers leave, Legion starts coming from the ledge itself.
The alliance side weren't overrun before the horde left. In fact, the ship came shortly after. Of course your defenses are going to get crushed if half of your army just disappears. Horde just left without any warning, and that's cowardice. As I said, at least trying to warn Varian that they were getting overrun on the ledge would have been somewhat better instead of turning and running.

[Toppy]

Wasnt the Alliance also being overran by the demons too? Its not like the Horde caused them to lose, it just caused them to have to retreat sooner.

Its just a case of the story only working if one or both sides do not have any brains.

[Dhrizzle]

Well i mean if you wanna take cinematics as absolute gospel, both factions were maybe 50 soldiers each and there were maybe 100 demons total. We both know in the actual game there were also 40 player characters there and a looooot more demons.

Given the choice of following the cinematics or the made-up ramblings of a random forum guy, I think the former has a better chance of accurately portraying the situation.

If you want to talk about leisurely, as you put it, the way i remember the alliance scenario is walking up to the tomb gate and just waiting there while untargetable mobs in front of you attack you in small waves. While on the horde side there is a constant stream of mobs and all the mobs in the background will also attack if you get to close. and then there is the space ship lazers that i didn't see on the alliance side.

And there's a difference between what happens mechanically for gameplay reasons and what Blizz can show you in a cut-scene. If the danger was supposed to be so great they could have shown the Horde running, or fighting off demons as they ran, instead of just sauntering away unharrassed.

but honestly even if for whatever reason the alliance didn't know what happened during the battle, there is no fucking way they wouldn't have been able to figure it out in the months since, unless there was some royal edict to put fingers in ears and yell "lalalallala" when interrogating prisoners, talking to factions like the silver hand who were also there, talking to class leaders in class halls, all their spies went on vacation, etc.

Even if the Alliance did get the full story from the Horde it doesn't change the fact that the Horde fled the battlefield tonsave their own skins, leaving the Alliance surrounded and unable to complete the mission. I don't see how you can spin that in a way that the Horde didn't abandon the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

Wasnt the Alliance also being overran by the demons too? Its not like the Horde caused them to lose, it just caused them to have to retreat sooner.

Its just a case of the story only working if one or both sides do not have any brains.

Alliance was pushing forward, they needed the Horde to hold the flank and provide support against demons in the air. Shit hit the fan for them when the Horde left the battle.

[Leyre]

Wasnt the Alliance also being overran by the demons too? Its not like the Horde caused them to lose, it just caused them to have to retreat sooner.

Its just a case of the story only working if one or both sides do not have any brains.

They are stupid, and refuse to accept that Sylvanas saved everyone

[Deleted]

Even if the Alliance did get the full story from the Horde it doesn't change the fact that the Horde fled the battlefield tonsave their own skins, leaving the Alliance surrounded and unable to complete the mission. I don't see how you can spin that in a way that the Horde didn't abandon the Alliance.

Abandon implies there was a chance of success to begin with. There obviously wasn't.

I mean what's the alternative here? The alliance fights on a little while longer and then gets flanked by the demons without even the horn to warn them? You gonna argue they could have sealed the tomb in that time?

- - - Updated - - -

Watch the cinematic again.
Varian/Genn/Mekkatorque fight, horn blares, rangers leave, Legion starts coming from the ledge itself.
The alliance side weren't overrun before the horde left. In fact, the ship came shortly after. Of course your defenses are going to get crushed if half of your army just disappears. Horde just left without any warning, and that's cowardice. As I said, at least trying to warn Varian that they were getting overrun on the ledge would have been somewhat better instead of turning and running.

I meant, the alliance military commander on the airship could have seen the horde was being overrun. The only way he couldn't see that is if he also couldn't see the alliance forces. (and since you guys like cinematics so much, the sky at the end of the cinematic is very clear, not filled with fog/explosions/air units at all)

Also in what way to you realistically think they could have sent a warning other then standard military battlefield communications like horns and flags/banners?

[Deleted]

Perhaps Sylvanas should not have blown the retreat, and let the horde forces there die to hold that point. Perhaps it would've bought time for the Alliance troops to kill Gul'dan, thus ending the Legion threat this time around.

Maybe that's why Genn's salty.

[Cannibalus]

Seriously, would it have been that hard to shout a "Oi Wrynn! Vol'jin's down, PULL BACK!" instead of just walking away?

THIS is exactly what i was thinking... srsly i don't understand why they couldn't yell or send a courier OR even sacrificing a few horde berserkers just to hold the ridge until the retreat message goes out... so many cool ways to do it. Lore is getting retarded with each expansion. Just like Illidan couldn't send word back in BC when we attacked Black Temple to just say "stop it you morons, we're all fighting the Legion".

[Deleted]

Perhaps Sylvanas should not have blown the retreat, and let the horde forces there die to hold that point. Perhaps it would've bought time for the Alliance troops to kill Gul'dan, thus ending the Legion threat this time around.

Maybe that's why Genn's salty.

In that case we would be here talking about why the alliance was afking in front of Guldan instead of attacking him straight away, letting the horde die in the process.

(and then there is the minor detail that at the time we didn't know we didn't have the means to seal the tomb then and there)

[Dhrizzle]

Abandon implies there was a chance of success to begin with. There obviously wasn't.

I mean what's the alternative here? The alliance fights on a little while longer and then gets flanked by the demons without even the horn to warn them? You gonna argue they could have sealed the tomb in that time?

Citation needed for the Horse's obvious failure, it looks a lot more like Vol'jinn got hurt and decided to flee to preserve lives rather than finishing what they came for, but if the Horde are as bad at fighting as you think there's still some middle ground between "stay and fail" and "flee whilst abandoning our allies with no warning or support."

[Deleted]

Citation needed for the Horse's obvious failure, it looks a lot more like Vol'jinn got hurt and decided to flee to preserve lives rather than finishing what they came for, but if the Horde are as bad at fighting as you think there's still some middle ground between "stay and fail" and "flee whilst abandoning our allies with no warning or support."

Do you agree the pillars of creation are required to seal the tomb? If yes then the battle was lost before it even began. Then it's really just a coin flip about which faction had to retreat first.