i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Katchii]

You say this as if most serious players aren't already using third party parsing like ACT.

If your delicate sensibilities can't handle the stress of knowing that your DPS is garbage, or that you're constantly dying to the same thing, then raiding is not for you. Everyone else would welcome native support for it.

You kind of illustrated the point already. The serious, high performing, players who actually need a parser tool to help improve their groups performance to the levels they need to clear the content are already using them. These aren't the kind of people we're worried about. It's the general population that can and will use it for stupid shit, as seen time and time again in games like WoW. Not allowing a parser natively keeps a large portion of people from having or using one, but one exists and is accepted by the Dev team for use in the kind of content it was always intended to be used in.

PS4 players may not be able to use it for themselves, but in the kind of content that the tool is needed, they'll likely be playing with someone on PC who has it installed and can give them the information.

The game is doing just fine in it's current state and the Devs have made it very clear that they will not add native support for it.

- - - Updated - - -

me: *vents*
you: i hope you dont actually treat people like that
me: i dont

>someone treats me like that
you: you take this game too seriously





it makes things a lot clearer. if you're the tank or healer (or you don't have much overall class knowledge) it might be hard to tell who is doing bad damage.



That is true, but why would you queue as a tank if you could not tank? why would you queue as healer if you cannot heal? would you really want to share potential drops with someone who is not pulling their weight? it's a huge waste of your time to get sniped by someone who isn't putting in the effort.

as infamous of a meme as dead dragoon that wins loot was you know everyone hated him

I don't think you're seeing the point. They're saying most content that isn't cleared has little to do with the party's damage output, and more to do with some players inability to actually do the encounter mechanics. Of course a dead DPS will have low DPS numbers...he's dead. THAT'S why the dead dragoon was a meme...not because DRG did shitty DPS.

Also, again, you keep bringing up that having this information would help you decide who you should be kicking. Kicking for anything other than Harassment, Offline, AFK or Cheating is unjustified and a punishable offense. So if the only reason, or your main one, is that you are wanting this information in order to kick someone....you're doing it wrong and it's this mentality that is exactly why the Devs are against it.

[Gandrake]

people would be annoyed if tanks were not tanking the mobs and healers were never healing and they'd get kicked for it... but dps are allowed to just sit there and not really do any damage

[Dreyen]

Honestly, I don't play FFXIV, but my logic in WoW for pugs is that if the guy is participating and does low damage, I don't care.

If the guy is constantly afking and getting literally carried, that's a kick.

Don't be a dick, some players are worse than others. Unless it prevents you from completing the dungeon just go with the flow and finish the dungeon. If you really care about people's damage, do dungeons with your friends.

[Kakera]

Honestly, I don't play FFXIV, but my logic in WoW for pugs is that if the guy is participating and does low damage, I don't care.

If the guy is constantly afking and getting literally carried, that's a kick.

Don't be a dick, some players are worse than others. Unless it prevents you from completing the dungeon just go with the flow and finish the dungeon. If you really care about people's damage, do dungeons with your friends.

Sup Dreyen.

FFXIV is generally a very different game from a community perspective and coming from WoW it certainly was a shock to see such patience and what they call "learning parties" for even the top end content in the game. Even though this is a topic of discussion it really isn't as huge issue of an issue as it is in WoW which is refreshing. Having said that at least on the more HC oriented servers there's certainly still exclusion that happens from time to time.

Honestly, there isn't anything particularly wrong about players who only want to play with those that have cleared content before and have proven themselves to be capable of output/mechanical requirements for those with less time to teach others. Having a tool to assist in that seems fine to me. Reality is that it's kinda the same as it is in WoW where only the subpar/casual players dislike the concept of performance being measured and being excluded for such performance.

And in the same way as it is in WoW it's just as hypocritical because why are you attempting difficult fights seeking to get carried when the game is literally made for casuals there's an infinite amount of shit you can do besides wasting others time. Of course it's different if you show interest and actually improve upon your situational awareness, output, and general raid know-how. But people that come in the get carried? Yeah, you can take that kick and be mad about it. No one is going to sympathize with you.

I don't mind joining learning parties to help others learn savage. I mind when people clearly have no business doing savage raiding and die to every single mechanic and question why they were kicked. Numbers aside.

It is extremely easy for any seasoned raider to see someone that clearly has no business being in a raid and someone that just needs guidance. The problem is not everyone has that level of insight so the number of occurrences of exclusion is likely far higher than it really should be. But it's far better than the alternative of rolling the dice every time you want to form up a party for difficult shit.

[Deleted]

Combination of snowflakes who can't handle being told they aren't performing adequately to complete an encounter, and asbergers who can't communicate online with any maturity or decency.

Case in point. Do you bring this negative, condescending attitude to the game as well? Because this is exactly why having parsers public is a bad idea. I have achieved top 5 ranks for my spec for 8 out of 10 bosses in the Nighthold and being the best I can and making top 10 ranks is my biggest reason for raiding. Yet I am against having public parsers for FFXIV because I do not want that game to be ruined too by negative attitudes like yours.

In any case, you can still use parsers for your savage statics anyway, so what is the problem? Parsers are not needed for the rest of the content.

[Toppy]

people would be annoyed if tanks were not tanking the mobs and healers were never healing and they'd get kicked for it... but dps are allowed to just sit there and not really do any damage

DPS are not near as important as tanks or healers. Nor do as many people play them. Tanks did have an issue for a time where people were just rolling DRK to DPS or as a WAR would never tank since they're used to not having to in larger groups. So it does happen.

But yeah, can't really compare the two. DPS just aren't near as important as a tank or healer.

[Dwill]

You act as if people need parsers to tell if they're doing well.

Then again its not going to happen. The devs have always been hugely against it.

Guesstimating can only tell you so much and it can totally inaccurate.

DPS are not near as important as tanks or healers. Nor do as many people play them. Tanks did have an issue for a time where people were just rolling DRK to DPS or as a WAR would never tank since they're used to not having to in larger groups. So it does happen.

But yeah, can't really compare the two. DPS just aren't near as important as a tank or healer.

In casual content, only really the healer is important is more important as you can tank everything outside Alexander/24-Man with Titan or straight DPS tanking. So yeah, the two can be compared when we're talking about content that actually requires all 3 to perform correctly.

[Kazgrel]

The opposition isn't to parsing per se (I've run one for at least a year now). The opposition is to how people can choose to utilize such tools and the information they provide.

A crowbar can be used for a variety of things; one such thing is beating someone senseless (if not lifeless). The problem doesn't lie with the tool.

[Deleted]

Parsing, or Dmg meters, or whatever you call them are one of the best tools any MMO can have, and all the toxicity that comes with knowing someone's bad at DPS is a human problem not because of the meters. I hear lots of boasts about the FF XIV community vs other MMO's, so proof you're better by acting like human beings when DMG meters do come out.

Now, why it is a great thing.
1. If you're doing tough content and are failing because of a DPS check, you can actually see where the problem lies. is it overall just low? are there a couple people holding you down? Check the logs and you know. Now you can fix the problem! Good logs could also tell you who stands in what AoE how many times, and all kinds of usefull info.

2. Point #1 leads straight into this. You can with logs help people in a meaningfull way. Good detailed logs can show you exactly what someone is doing wrong: How many casts of a certain ability, buff uptime, activity, rotation. All of that stuff is good tasty information with which you can help someone with. Sure assholes will just point and scream at the numbers, but helpfull people can use this to fix other's DPS. Sure you can do it without logs, but with them you can be much more precise, and you don't have to troubleshoot the problem as you can clearly see it.

3. Good logs help improve yourself! I know without a doubt that my dps in WoW whould be much lower without logs. I can do a fight, look back at the logs and see exactly what i did during that fight, showing me what i've done wrong. Now i know my mistakes and fix them.


The only problem with this are the fools that scream and cry about it. Kick those whenever they speak up and you're fine.
All you nay sayers are depriving yourself and others from a incredebly usefull and helpfull tool, and it's a real damn shame.

[Katchii]

Parsing, or Dmg meters, or whatever you call them are one of the best tools any MMO can have, and all the toxicity that comes with knowing someone's bad at DPS is a human problem not because of the meters. I hear lots of boasts about the FF XIV community vs other MMO's, so proof you're better by acting like human beings when DMG meters do come out.

Now, why it is a great thing.
1. If you're doing tough content and are failing because of a DPS check, you can actually see where the problem lies. is it overall just low? are there a couple people holding you down? Check the logs and you know. Now you can fix the problem! Good logs could also tell you who stands in what AoE how many times, and all kinds of usefull info.

2. Point #1 leads straight into this. You can with logs help people in a meaningfull way. Good detailed logs can show you exactly what someone is doing wrong: How many casts of a certain ability, buff uptime, activity, rotation. All of that stuff is good tasty information with which you can help someone with. Sure assholes will just point and scream at the numbers, but helpfull people can use this to fix other's DPS. Sure you can do it without logs, but with them you can be much more precise, and you don't have to troubleshoot the problem as you can clearly see it.

3. Good logs help improve yourself! I know without a doubt that my dps in WoW whould be much lower without logs. I can do a fight, look back at the logs and see exactly what i did during that fight, showing me what i've done wrong. Now i know my mistakes and fix them.


The only problem with this are the fools that scream and cry about it. Kick those whenever they speak up and you're fine.
All you nay sayers are depriving yourself and others from a incredebly usefull and helpfull tool, and it's a real damn shame.

A tool already exists and people are already using it and the developers allow it, so long as it isn't ever used to shame other people. It takes some effort to download, install and configure which dissuades many people who don't really care from getting it. Even people on PS4 have access to it through their PC playing guild members. The thing people are asking for is a native tool that allows everyone to have access to it, whether on PC or PS4. Native support would mean EVERYONE would have access to the tool, whether they wanted it or knew how to use it appropriately.

The current tool is only really used by the players who want it for the right reasons (for the most part); to measure themselves and others in their raid groups to improve performance, not as a performance shaming tool or metric for whether or not to kick someone (which the dismiss feature/ dev team calls an unjustifiable and punishable offense). Giving it to literally everyone, whether they want it or not, would result in a large population of people using it just as an e-peen measure or otherwise for the wrong reasons.

[The Casualty]

I run on PC so I'm not that burdened as I can run ACT. I can see how people on PS4 would like to have have their own parsing tool, and wish that it was something everyone could have access to.

I don't see why even if SE were to suddenly support the availability of parsing tools that the rules would have to change any. Just make it so that if people use the parser to harass they will receive some sort of infraction or ban, which is where we are now.

But if anyone is suggesting that people aren't being kicked nowadays from party finder for poor performance even without an official parser, that's just willful ignorance. They just might not be given a reason. I don't even want to broach the subject in PF because I'm not risking an infraction, nor is it my job to carry people or teach them their job in a farm party, but I have seen parses of DPS doing sub 400 on things like a Thordan or Nidhogg bird farm. And that's plain out unacceptable.

[Granyala]

Because you can't kick dps without having knowledge about what dps is not up to par, unless you wanna name the person which again is against the rules and is "dps" shaming which SE doesn't want. It's really simple

I can.
I can see DoTs. I can see buffs. I can see casts.

Trust me. If you play BLM / SMN, I will feel and know if you play like crap.

I do not need ACT for that.

[Deleted]

I can.
I can see DoTs. I can see buffs. I can see casts.

Trust me. If you play BLM / SMN, I will feel and know if you play like crap.

I do not need ACT for that.

Okay? It still doesn't change the fact that you have to tell people the reason why you want to kick them when they ask why you want to do it.

[Pull My Finger]

Wasn't aware of this at all. But is there really a significant resitance to parsing in the FF community? If so, it's a wondrous thing. They're doing great, props.

[Granyala]

Okay? It still doesn't change the fact that you have to tell people the reason why you want to kick them when they ask why you want to do it.

I don't kick people unless they are offline or they are impeding a groups progress to the point that the encounter will not be beatable (extremely rare, since I don't do ex/savage).
I will tell you what you are doing wrong though.

I find it quite hilarious how people rage against the possibility to see what a DPS does wrong.
When I fuck up (WHM) my failure is there for everyone to see.
Why do DPS players need to be coddled?
Grow a spine.

Also, in 10 years of WoW, I've seen senseless DPS meter spam... maybe 20 times? These days it doesn't exist, because content outside of M raiding is so freeloot and the disparity in playerpower is so huge due to ilvl being all over the place, that it hardly matters at all.

TL,DR: People overly exaggerate the "toxic effect" of addons like recount by a huge margin.

[The Casualty]

Okay? It still doesn't change the fact that you have to tell people the reason why you want to kick them when they ask why you want to do it.

"Difference of playstyles" is a confirmed and totally acceptable reason to remove someone out of your party. It's basically the blanket of "you are playing like shit and I want to get rid of you". Bad player gets removed, and no one gets in trouble as long as you aren't shaming them.

Granted, it's usually a waste of time as carrying people through a roulette is generally a lot quicker than removing someone and waiting for that slot to fill back up.

[Granyala]

Granted, it's usually a waste of time as carrying people through a roulette is generally a lot quicker than removing someone and waiting for that slot to fill back up.

Either this, or you don't get to the point where you can kick, because the good players just drop group after the first wipe allows them to escape the deserter.

[The Casualty]

TL,DR: People overly exaggerate the "toxic effect" of addons like recount by a huge margin.

I played WoW for nearly 7 years and I never saw meter spamming outside of our 25/40 man, and that was less to do with people bragging and more of people not running meters asking for an update (the "I don't wanna know, but I really do wanna know" crowd) - which we limited to after fights because it had the potential to clog up the screen or scroll important messages/alerts.

[xerus]

Anyone (on PC) who is serious about doing every last bit of dps their class has to offer is running ACT. You are fooling yourself if you think this isn't the case.

[Gandrake]

DPS are not near as important as tanks or healers. Nor do as many people play them. Tanks did have an issue for a time where people were just rolling DRK to DPS or as a WAR would never tank since they're used to not having to in larger groups. So it does happen.

But yeah, can't really compare the two. DPS just aren't near as important as a tank or healer.

i dont see how someone could believe that

i mean yes in some respects a healer and tank is more important but good dps makes everything easier and it doesn't matter what difficulty you play something on, you want it to be as easy as possible

TL,DR: People overly exaggerate the "toxic effect" of addons like recount by a huge margin.

i agree

usually dps is not such a miserable problem but every once in a while you run into someone who is too heavy to carry and there's just no reason for it. like... either their gear is too low or they are neglecting fundamental basics of doing damage as their designated class.