Tinkers In Our Future?

[Teriz]

Again: irrelevant. No other race is as arcane-advanced as humans and high/blood Elves, yet we got dwarven mages, orc mages, etc. No other race is as Light-inclined as draenei and humans, yet we got dwarven paladins, gnome priests, forsaken priests, etc. Just because this or that race is more "inclined" or "advanced" in a path does not mean it's a path "exclusive" to them, especially when we have countless other examples of the other races following the same path.

And there are lore basis for each and every one of those class options. There's very little to no lore basis for people living in castles and huts to be driving around in mechs. However, it makes perfect sense for Gnomes and Goblins since they're living in high tech industrial cities and driving around in cars and riding robots IN lore by default.

A human going from a horse to building and piloting a a high tech robot is s jumping the shark. A magical Elf becoming a Mage? Not so much.

Shows how little you know about it. The Demon Hunters aren't exclusively elves "because Illidan is an elf." That's a gross misrepresentation. They're only elves because Illidan only trained night elves. Why? Because Night Elves, in the past, were a culture who had little to no interest in the rest of Azeroth's culture, bordering on xenophobia. Blood elf demon hunters because of the pact Illidan and Kael'thas had, before Kael'Thas showed his duplicity.

How does any of that contradict what I posted?

Yeah! Look at all that goalpost moving! A mount is a mount. Doesn't matter if it's crafted, or bought from an NPC. But if you want to go that route, look at this sweet mechanical mount sold by this Stormwind human.

In short, mounts doesn't mean anything, especially if you're trying to argue for exclusivity.

I didn't move any goalposts. Racial mounts are tied to the racial lore of the game. Are you really arguing that the fact that Mekkatorque invented the Gnomes' racial mount means notbing?

Irrelevant.

Funny how lore is only irrelevant when you disagree with it. Any luck finding in-lore examples of non-Gnomes and Goblins building and flying mechs?

Guess not.

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I'd rather widen the concept of Tinker, since there are multiple subclasses related to technology, such as Steam Warrior (gnomes), Technomage (humans, blood elves and undead), Alchemist (the class, undead), Bombardier, Mortar team, Artificiers (draenei) and so on.

Much of that comes from Warcraft RPG which isn't canon. The other problem is that those various aspects don't colaencse into a cohesive WoW class.

The Mech concept works because it ticks all the necessary requirements for a WoW class.

[Pua]

Tinkers would work because no other class in the game is remotely similar. Also (if we go with the mech pilot angle), the class can easily fill the desire of a new physical ranged class that isn't anything remotely like what we currently have. Tinkers piloting mechs is a common occurrence in WoW and other WC media, so it isn't something out of left field.

Nobody's arguing that another class is similar. I'm saying that the fantasy of the tinker is already largely covered by engineering as far as most players are concerned, and there isn't anything in game that suggests the idea has any legs; it's all fan driven.

The rest of your post is wishful thinking, rather than evidence of support.

[Ielenia]

And there are lore basis for each and every one of those class options.

Are you sure? Because I don't recall any lore at all about gnome mages or priests before WoW, for example.

There's very little to no lore basis for people living in castles and huts to be driving around in mechs. However, it makes perfect sense for Gnomes and Goblins since they're living in high tech industrial cities and driving around in cars and riding robots IN lore by default.

What really matters is that there is lore. Besides, your own example, about gnomes, contradicts itself. Because if that was the case, gnomes would not be allowed to be any spell-casting class, since there is nothing about magic in their cities. All technology, no magic.

A human going from a horse to building and piloting a a high tech robot is s jumping the shark. A magical Elf becoming a Mage? Not so much.

A gnome going from a mechanical mount and technology to studying and casting high-level spells is jumping she shark. Same logic.

I didn't move any goalposts. Racial mounts are tied to the racial lore of the game.

Yes, they are tied to lore, but they're completely irrelevant when you try to argue for exclusivity of a lore concept. Yes, gnomes are the ones that most often use mechanical mounts, but that does not mean they're the only ones. The reason I'm saying it's irrelevant is because that same argument could be used to forbid gnomes from playing any spell-casting class other than priests, yet that is not what happens in the game, is it?

Are you really arguing that the fact that Mekkatorque invented the Gnomes' racial mount means notbing?

For your argument? Yes, it means absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter who or what created this or that. Magic wasn't created by any of the current mortal races, for example, yet many races use it freely, for example.

Funny how lore is only irrelevant when you disagree with it.

The only reason I say it's irrelevant is because it is irrelevant. Like I said earlier about gnomes and magic: there is nothing magical about the gnomes prior to WoW (as they only piloted gyrocopter machines) and in their WoW's city, Gnomeregan. No magic at all. Then, by your logic, they shouldn't be able to be any spellcasting class other than priests.

[Teriz]

Nobody's arguing that another class is similar. I'm saying that the fantasy of the tinker is already largely covered by engineering as far as most players are concerned, and there isn't anything in game that suggests the idea has any legs; it's all fan driven.

The rest of your post is wishful thinking, rather than evidence of support.

As was stated on this thread earlier by another poster, since the profession can't perform like a class, it cannot fulfill the class fantasy.

That's simply a fact.

Additionally, if "most" people believed that engineering covered the Tinker class, the latter wouldnt be one of the most requested classes.

[Azalar]

Much of that comes from Warcraft RPG which isn't canon. The other problem is that those various aspects don't colaencse into a cohesive WoW class.

The Mech concept works because it ticks all the necessary requirements for a WoW class.

I made a little research before posting that, and the only one that seems purely non-canon are Steam Warriors and Technomages to some extent. There are examples of all the other ingame.

I'm not denying the mech concept, though.

[Teriz]

Are you sure? Because I don't recall any lore at all about gnome mages or priests before WoW, for example.

You also never heard of Tauren Druids or Paladins before WoW either, but here we are.

What really matters is that there is lore. Besides, your own example, about gnomes, contradicts itself. Because if that was the case, gnomes would not be allowed to be any spell-casting class, since there is nothing about magic in their cities. All technology, no magic...

I'd have to check Tinkertown, but there are Gnome Mages and Warlocks in lore ( Milhouse Manastorm and Wilfred
Fizzlebang off the top of my head), so there is lore-based magic-users within Gnome society, so Gnome magic users make sense.

A gnome going from a mechanical mount and technology to studying and casting high-level spells is jumping she shark. Same logic.

See above.

Yes, they are tied to lore, but they're completely irrelevant when you try to argue for exclusivity of a lore concept. Yes, gnomes are the ones that most often use mechanical mounts, but that does not mean they're the only ones. The reason I'm saying it's irrelevant is because that same argument could be used to forbid gnomes from playing any spell-casting class other than priests, yet that is not what happens in the game, is it?

Then where's the non-Goblins and Gnomes that are building and piloting mechs?

For your argument? Yes, it means absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter who or what created this or that. Magic wasn't created by any of the current mortal races, for example, yet many races use it freely, for example.

And the lore supports that wide usage. That wide level of usage doesn't extend to technology.

[Azalar]

Then where's the non-Goblins and Gnomes that are building and piloting mechs?

And the Orcish iron reavers? Artificiers' crystal pylons shooting down demons in Talador? Do Draenei soul constructs count too?

[Ielenia]

You also never heard of Tauren Druids or Paladins before WoW either, but here we are.

You do realize that with this line you're agreeing with me that you're wrong, right?

I'd have to check Tinkertown, but there are Gnome Mages and Warlocks in lore ( Milhouse Manastorm and Wilfred Fizzlebang off the top of my head), so there is lore-based magic-users within Gnome society, so Gnome magic users make sense.

They're irrelevant because they were created after WoW was released. They didn't exist until after Blizzard decided to give magic to gnomes as well. Before WoW? Gnomes were pure 100% technology and 0% magic. You need to give examples that existed before, not after the fact. For example, monks: they didn't exist before Mists of Pandaria, at least not in a form that resemble anywhere near to what we got. Now? We see monks in Pandaria, capital cities, Legion... even back in Draenor.

And the lore supports that wide usage. That wide level of usage doesn't extend to technology.

It does. I don't think you can't find any example of a single race that doesn't use technology. Even orcs, with their rudimentary knowledge about technology, also dabble in engineering.

[Tyze]

Hopefully they can pull of a ranged spec on it. Using lazers and shit
Healer would be nice aswell, could provive buffs and shields for the team. Tank seems obvious.

[Teriz]

You do realize that with this line you're agreeing with me that you're wrong, right?

Hardly. I said that there is a lore basis for all of those classes in WoW. Obviously there were no WoW classes before WoW came out in 2004, so Blizzard created the lore to facilitate those classes existing in the game.

They're irrelevant because they were created after WoW was released. They didn't exist until after Blizzard decided to give magic to gnomes as well. Before WoW? Gnomes were pure 100% technology and 0% magic. You need to give examples that existed before, not after the fact.

Actually I don't. We're talking about World of Warcraft, and the classes and lore that exists within that game, not lore that existed before or outside of it. Tauren Druids were created after WoW's release. Are they irrelevant to Druid lore?

It does. I don't think you can't find any example of a single race that doesn't use technology. Even orcs, with their rudimentary knowledge about technology, also dabble in engineering.

But not on the level of Gnomes and Goblins, and certainly not enough to reach power levels appropriate for a class. For example, Orcs are building Catapults and sailing ships while Goblins are building flame-throwing, transforming mech suits that can fly.

That's the point.

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And the Orcish iron reavers? Artificiers' crystal pylons shooting down demons in Talador? Do Draenei soul constructs count too?

I'm pretty sure that there is one Orc Iron Reaver pilot, and that mech he was flying was built by the Goblins.

I wouldn't consider Crystal Pylons or constructs to be pilot-able mechs.

Draenei tech is pretty advanced, but it definitely isn't the same tech that Goblins and Gnomes are using, and would probably be a bit difficult to represent in a class heavily geared towards mechanical technology.

[Zoldor]

I don't get the draw to this class at all. But whatever. I'd rather see a witch doctor than a tinker. This move to spaceships, and steam punk is not really my favorite.

I do wish they'd put this speculation to bed one way or the other though. As it is a rather redundant discussion between the way to factions view machines in the WoW world.

[Azalar]

I'm pretty sure that there is one Orc Iron Reaver pilot, and that mech he was flying was built by the Goblins.

I wouldn't consider Crystal Pylons or constructs to be pilot-able mechs.

Draenei tech is pretty advanced, but it definitely isn't the same tech that Goblins and Gnomes are using, and would probably be a bit difficult to represent in a class heavily geared towards mechanical technology.

Thaelin Darkanvil during the WoD intro quests says he's taking time to understand the tank controllers because they were built by Orcs.

Crystal pylons may not be pilotable mechs, but they are turrets.

I believe Tinkers would be much more interesting and rich if the class encompassed more than only Goblin and Gnomish approaches to tech. Leaving the class only to Gnomes and Goblins would implicitly say other races are much less advanced technologically, which isn't true at all.

[Ielenia]

Hardly. I said that there is a lore basis for all of those classes in WoW. Obviously there were no WoW classes before WoW came out in 2004, so Blizzard created the lore to facilitate those classes existing in the game.

Of course there is "lore basis" for those classes in WoW because said "lore basis" was created to allow those race/class combos to exist, but prior to WoW, there were no basis at all for gnomes wielding anything magic-based. So, by your own argument, we go with pre-established lore, gnome mages and warlocks should have never existed in the first place. But they do.

Actually I don't. We're talking about World of Warcraft, and the classes and lore that exists within that game, not lore that existed before or outside of it.

Wrong. We're talking about Warcraft lore, which is presented within the WoW game, as well as the preceding games (WC 1, 2, 3 and their expansions).

Tauren Druids were created after WoW's release. Are they irrelevant to Druid lore?

Way to misrepresent and strawman the argument, dude. I never said they're irrelevant at all, not even close.

But not on the level of Gnomes and Goblins,

That's completely irrelevant. Gnomes and goblins have never wielded magic to the level of humans and high/blood elves. Hell, we have never even heard of gnome or goblin spellcasters, prior to the release of WoW, yet they not only can mages and warlocks as well, but can be just as powerful as their human and high/blood elven counterparts.

[Teriz]

Thaelin Darkanvil during the WoD intro quests says he's taking time to understand the tank controllers because they were built by Orcs.

Well keep in mind, Iron Horde Orcs aren't the same as playable Orcs. Iron Horde Orcs spent years working side by side with the Goblin Blackfuse company to build war machines, so they're a bit more technologically inclined than the Orcs we play as.

Crystal pylons may not be pilotable mechs, but they are turrets.

I believe Tinkers would be much more interesting and rich if the class encompassed more than only Goblin and Gnomish approaches to tech. Leaving the class only to Gnomes and Goblins would implicitly say other races are much less advanced technologically, which isn't true at all.

Well it actually is true. The only race that rivals them technologically are the Draenei, and their tech is completely different than Goblin and Gnome tech. Some argue that its not technology at all, but a form of magic. :shrugs:

Like I said before, we're talking two races that live in modern cities and drive cars and ride robots, versus other races that live in the middle ages.

Anyway, with any class discussion, the class needs to have a focus. While it is rich and interesting to try to incorporate every type of tech in Azeroth, eventually you have to focus on a certain aspect of it for a class. Additionally, the more focused and limited (race-wise) the class is, the more unique perks you can give it. For example, if you limit the class to Goblins and Gnomes, Blizzard could give them unique mech models to pilot that designates their race. Sort of like how Druids have different models unique for each race. Perks like that help with the class fantasy.

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Of course there is "lore basis" for those classes in WoW because said "lore basis" was created to allow those race/class combos to exist, but prior to WoW, there were no basis at all for gnomes wielding anything magic-based. So, by your own argument, we go with pre-established lore, gnome mages and warlocks should have never existed in the first place. But they do.

Well yeah, because Blizzard created the lore that allowed that race to wield magic.

You're making a really dumb argument here. You do know that no races or anything existed before Blizzard created the original Warcraft right? No Night Elves existed in Warcraft before WC3.

Let me clarify for you: What I'M saying is that there's NO basis in any lore for non-Goblin and Gnome races to be building and piloting mechs. It just simply doesn't exist in the game outside of players crafting mounts and toys within the engineering profession (which isn't lore). Given the nature of other WoW races, it's highly doubtful that such lore would be created, because it would be jumping the shark for them. However, both Goblin and Gnome faction leaders have piloted mechs in game, and both races mass produce pilotable mechs, so a class based on pilotable mechs being Gnome and Goblin exclusive makes sense because its a pretty common aspect of their societies.

Hope that helps.

Wrong. We're talking about Warcraft lore, which is presented within the WoW game, as well as the preceding games (WC 1, 2, 3 and their expansions).

And would you agree that there is Warcraft Lore that exists in WoW but didn't exist in the preceding games? You know, like Tauren Druids and Paladins?

Way to misrepresent and strawman the argument, dude. I never said they're irrelevant at all, not even close.

Really? Watch this....

That's completely irrelevant. Gnomes and goblins have never wielded magic to the level of humans and high/blood elves. Hell, we have never even heard of gnome or goblin spellcasters, prior to the release of WoW, yet they not only can mages and warlocks as well, but can be just as powerful as their human and high/blood elven counterparts.

So Tauren Druids and Paladins are relevant, but me pointing out Gnome Mages and Warlocks existing in WC lore is irrelevant? How are they different? Neither existed before WoW in 2004.

Anyway, of course you never heard of any Gnomish or Goblin spell casters before WoW, they haven't been invented by Blizzard yet. However, they exist now.

I mean, is your argument really that lore can't be taken seriously unless it existed before WoW? That's pretty dumb Ielenia.

[Riistov]

Not gonna happen. If we get anything it will be a new race most likely.

No worries about balancing and people like it.

Besides, Tinker was listed on that obviously fake "leaked" Naga expansion. Much cooler ideas exist in the lore.

[Ielenia]

Well yeah, because Blizzard created the lore that allowed that race to wield magic.

And Blizzard has also created the lore that allows other races to use technology as well. Period. It's not hard to understand that.

Let me clarify for you: What I'M saying is that there's NO basis in any lore for non-Goblin and Gnome races to be building and piloting mechs.

And I've proven to you that you're factually wrong, as I have shown examples of engineering NPCs of other races. Which means that, as engineers, they're perfectly capable of building their own mech. After all, we, the players, (which you in the past called 'hobby-ist engineers') can build mechs, why can't full-time engineers?

And would you agree that there is Warcraft Lore that exists in WoW but didn't exist in the preceding games? You know, like Tauren Druids and Paladins?

That's completely irrelevant. The point is: even assuming you're right (and you're not) that there is currently no lore basis for other races to be Tinkers, Blizzard can easily whip up lore to say that. Every. Single. Race in this game can be Tinkers.

Really? Watch this....

So Tauren Druids and Paladins are relevant, but me pointing out Gnome Mages and Warlocks existing in WC lore is irrelevant? How are they different? Neither existed before WoW in 2004.

Way to misrepresent and strawman the argument, dude. (x2)

Read the point above.

Anyway, of course you never heard of any Gnomish or Goblin spell casters before WoW, they haven't been invented by Blizzard yet. However, they exist now.

In other words: Blizzard can add any class and race/class combo they want, regardless if there is lore for them or not? As a friendly advice, please think twice before answering this.

[Azalar]

Well keep in mind, Iron Horde Orcs aren't the same as playable Orcs. Iron Horde Orcs spent years working side by side with the Goblin Blackfuse company to build war machines, so they're a bit more technologically inclined than the Orcs we play as..

Well it actually is true. The only race that rivals them technologically are the Draenei, and their tech is completely different than Goblin and Gnome tech. Some argue that its not technology at all, but a form of magic. :shrugs:

Like I said before, we're talking two races that live in modern cities and drive cars and ride robots, versus other races that live in the middle ages.

Anyway, with any class discussion, the class needs to have a focus. While it is rich and interesting to try to incorporate every type of tech in Azeroth, eventually you have to focus on a certain aspect of it for a class. Additionally, the more focused and limited (race-wise) the class is, the more unique perks you can give it. For example, if you limit the class to Goblins and Gnomes, Blizzard could give them unique mech models to pilot that designates their race. Sort of like how Druids have different models unique for each race. Perks like that help with the class fantasy.

They're still Orcs, and remnants of the Iron Horde have joined our Horde. Check the garrison shipyard guy, for example.

Let's compare:

Many races have their own approaches to tech, but can be condensed into a solid class. Why not? Now take priests, for example. Each race has its unique approach to the light, yet they're still all priests and share the same classes. By that logic, Night Elven priests should be Moon Priestesses (they are, in lore, but not really in actual gameplay), or Undead only Shadow Priests, or... do you see the logic?

The more races involved the richer and more flexible the class is in terms of gameplay, which is what matters in the end. Barring up a wide and rich concept to only Goblins and Gnomes renders the class poorer. We've seen plenty of Artificiers in Shadowmoon and Talador, lots of Tech Orcs in Blackrock Foundry, Undead Scourge warfare everywhere in Northrend (it's still tech!), Blood Elves salvaging Naaru tech from Netherstorm, Tempest Keep AND Throne of Thunder (Animus Golems!), Dark Iron and Bronzebeard Dwarves, Gnomes, Goblins and even Human technicians (there are some scattered over Northrend repairing machines)!

All races could have unique mech models, not only Goblins and Gnomes. Imagine your Orc Tinker controlling an iron tank or reaver instead of a shredder, or your Blood Elf Tinker on an arcane golem or animus golem! That'd be awesome.

[Pua]

As was stated on this thread earlier by another poster, since the profession can't perform like a class, it cannot fulfill the class fantasy.

That's simply a fact.

Additionally, if "most" people believed that engineering covered the Tinker class, the latfer wouldnt be one of the most rewuested classes.

Okay, so you're not actually reading what's being said to you; that's a shame, because I've not much interest in discussing topics with zealots.

[Teriz]

And Blizzard has also created the lore that allows other races to use technology as well. Period. It's not hard to understand that.

Then where is it? The engineering profession in of itself isn't lore, its a component of gameplay. Even the profession itself is divided between Goblin and Gnomish engineering.

And I've proven to you that you're factually wrong, as I have shown examples of engineering NPCs of other races. Which means that, as engineers, they're perfectly capable of building their own mech. After all, we, the players, (which you in the past called 'hobby-ist engineers') can build mechs, why can't full-time engineers?

Then again, where' the non-Goblin and Gnomes who have built these mechs? Sky Golem stretches all the way back to Mists of Pandaria. Where's those mech piloting NPCs during the battle versus the Iron Horde, or on the Broken Shore? Only one there was Mekkatorque.

That's completely irrelevant. The point is: even assuming you're right (and you're not) that there is currently no lore basis for other races to be Tinkers, Blizzard can easily whip up lore to say that. Every. Single. Race in this game can be Tinkers.

Blizzard could, but it would be vastly out of place, and wouldn't make much sense because there's no basis for it. There's a basis for it among Goblins and Gnomes because there's been lore examples of them piloting mechs since vanilla. Other races? Zilch.

In other words: Blizzard can add any class and race/class combo they want, regardless if there is lore for them or not? As a friendly advice, please think twice before answering this.

Before WoW? Yes. After WoW? Nope. Every class introduced since launch has had a basis in Warcraft lore.

[Ielenia]

Then where is it? The engineering profession in of itself isn't lore, its a component of gameplay. Even the profession itself is divided between Goblin and Gnomish engineering.

I've already provided examples of engineers of other races. That's the lore needed for a tech-class for those races. As for the 'divide' between gnomish and goblin engineering, it's nothing but a petty rivalry in design philosophy than any real divide. So much so you can switch from one to the other at any time, and even technically use both, if it wasn't for gameplay blocking you from doing so.

Then again, where' the non-Goblin and Gnomes who have built these mechs?

We have engineer NPCs of many different races. That's all we need to say such races can be part of a tech class. If you see a mage NPC you don't go out doubting, lore-wise, that this NPC is able to throw a Pyroblast or not, or any mage ability, are you? If you see a priest NPC, do you doubt if it's able to cast 'resurrection' or any priest ability?

There's a basis for it among Goblins and Gnomes because there's been lore examples of them piloting mechs since vanilla. Other races?

Yes, there is. There are engineers aplenty of many other races.

Before WoW? Yes. After WoW? Nope.

Wrong. Nothing stops Blizzard from adding whatever class they want. Proof is below:

Every class introduced since launch has had a basis in Warcraft lore.

Really? the 'monk' class would like to have a word with you. That class was created one-hundred percent outside Warcraft lore. After all, the Celestials didn't exist until MoP. Neither did the monk temple. The WC3 Brewmaster unit? That's not a monk. It has been retroactively made into a monk thanks to Chen Stormstout being made into a monk, and he was a simple Brewmaster before. And it wasn't used as a basis, but as an add-on.