Should iLvL below Mythic Raiding Max out BELOW Mythic Base?

[Deleted]

Its not a question of self-esteem, its a very real problem that many people who would otherwise run mythic content questions why to run it if I can get 905+ gear from getting lucky titanforges from heroic content and below.

Thanks for proving that this thread is bullocks, silly. If one JUST raids for the itemlevel they are doing it wrong anyway.....

[Tradu]

I would go beyond that (and I'm not involved or even interested in mythic raiding currently, so current system doesn't bother me in any way):

- titanforge stops 5/10 ilvl before first mythic boss of current tier
- mythic have no warforge and no rng stats
- BUT mythic boss drops only 1 (max 2) pieces of loot, you can't use bonus rolls here (if it's current tier)

My reasons:
1)Warforge/Titanforge exist for more casual player, that just like to farm content and have possibility of upgrade. I don't they would be against it.

2)RNG stats exist because we have many sources for loot - it is designed so "super" casual (or altoholic) player can gear up quickly, but more involved player still need to do fair amount of stuff to min-max gear - that's why mythic need to have much less drops if we want static stats on gear.

3)This way people that want to "finish" their char with bis items for tier can do that without hurting casual playerbase.

4)Blizzard can tune mythic bosses better, they wouldn't have to worry about people overgeared with high titanforge items that very often are higher than rewards from raid (which is stupid on this level).

That'd be nice, although I don't think loot drops should be nerfed by that much. Going back to the Cata/T14 loot system would be perfect.

[Vaerys]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how Mythic+ and Titanforging of raid gear smooths the transition from Heroic into Mythic raiding, and improves the pool of recruits that the Mythic raid scene requires to maintain a solid roster in the face of burnout and changing priorities.

[Jaylock]

lolno?

Go ahead, find me an example of a guy who does not do mythic raiding, but has gear comparable to actual Mythic Raider (before you try - guys who killed Trilliax 3 times and Spellblade once don't count).

There are people in my guild who have 905+ ilvl equipped and their particular characters have never once step foot into a mythic raid.

Perfect example:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...korgath/baxtab

907, not a single mythic boss kill. This guy happens to be one of my irl friends and even he mentions that whats the point of doing mythic to get what 2-5 average ilvls higher than what he is currently at barring extreme rng.

The point is, several players who would otherwise desire to push harder into mythic raiding dont because there is little incentive to go raid at that level other than a mount from the hardest boss in the raid (which happens to be the last boss).

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Thanks for proving that this thread is bullocks, silly. If one JUST raids for the itemlevel they are doing it wrong anyway.....

Gear is a primary motivating factor of World of Warcraft, and for most MMOs it is the same.

Or are you just new to the game?

[Gaidax]

I didn't say no one would want to raid mythic because of TF, I am just saying that the desire to do so is lessened when they know they can run heroic every week and almost guaranteed to get a wf/tf item.

My guild does a full NH Heroic clear every week. We kill all bosses in about an hour and a half as we have the difficulty on farm, and without fail, i see at least 2-3 pieces of TF 910+ gear dropping from it every week. Yes it takes longer, but the fact that it exists devalues the desire to want to kill a boss that is tuned 2-3 times as difficult just to get pieces of 900 gear with a chance up to 925. The difficulty vs. reward is minimized because of the TF system.

And yet despite that your ilvl is 896... how so if Warforged or TF rain abundantly?

I have about 4 times your Heroic NH kills and I use whole 2 items from Heroic NH and only one of then was a REALLY good TF shot that would put baseline Mythic NH items to shame, another is just a meager upgrade I got today over mythic item I had in that slot.

On the other hand, I have less mythic kills to your heroic kills and yet my average ilvl is 15 higher than yours and I don't grind M+ either.

[Lochton]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.

I was about to write but Dars' answer is all that is needed.

[Sencha]

Fully agree with Jay.

[Deleted]

So the intent of the Warforge / Titanforge system was to give players the ability to perhaps find an upgrade from doing ANY type of content, whether it be WQ, Dungeons, Mythic Dungeons, LFR, Raids all the way up to Mythic.

The system as it stands now kind of devalues the higher raiding echelons especially with how frequently an item can warforge / titanforge.

Could the system be changed to still give players who don't do the highest difficulty / highest form of content the feeling that they can get an upgrade from any source of content that THEY do, without it feeling like a penalty?

So for example, lets say the warforge / titanforge system will allow ANY content below Mythic raiding (and a certain tier of Mythic+ dungeons) to be able to titanforge up to ilvl 895. But if you then participate in high level mythic+ dungeons, or Mythic raiding, the gear then starts at a base ilvl of 900 and can titanforge up to 925.

With this change, it would still feel to all players (even mythic raiders) that they can find upgrades for their character from any source, but also leaves incentive for people to really push into higher end challenging content, because if a mythic raider really wants better gear, then he has to be in mythic raiding to do so, and it rewards him accordingly as he kills bosses there.

Of course with each new tier of content the ilvl will be raised to match the tier, so the max ilvl titanforge below mythic Tomb would be raised to 5 ilvls below mythic tomb gear.

I understand what you are coming from and i do think that gear should be restricted, but only inside the raid. for example gear heroic gear should never be able to Titanforge to mythic level gear inside the mythic raid, instead it should cap at current 890 in the raid instance. That way Mythic raiders have something to strive for and they will have more incentives to reclear mythic raid content.

Lets say for arguments sake you have soft caps in Raids, much like battlegrounds.
Normal: 870
Heroic: 880.
Mythic: 900

With dungeon and outdoor gear scaling to those soft caps. Higher mythic+ gears tunes down or up depending on what difficulty they came from to also make it rewarding to clear dungeons while somewhat restricts the retarded titanforges that can happen.

[PointerToAddress]

I know that this is something that has been proposed before but if the WF/TF were to be brought into the next expansion then I would just cap the TF to +15 of the content you are currently doing with a reduced chance to WF/TF. So it would be:

Heroic 5man: 845->860
Mythic 5man: 860->875
Mythic+2: 865->880
...
Mythic+10: 890->905
Normal Raid: 870->885; 875->890; 880->895
Heroic Raid: 885->900; 890->905; 895->910
Mythic Raid: 900->915; 905->920; 910->925

So this way people "target" their difficulty. If you want gear equivalent to Heroic Raid gear then you can do M9+ or get very lucky in M6+ or get very lucky in Normal Raids or just do the Heroic Raids. That way you don't have higher geared people populating the lower M+ requiring overgeared ilvl, also you dont have an abundance of N HM 900+ only groups for raids. This will be needed to be coupled with a reduction in required AP in general since the only incentive to do lower end content is to help other people/friends/guildies. I think if people targeted their own difficulty and didnt really have an incentive to run lower gear content it could help a lot with perceived burnout.

[Elbob]

Thanks for proving that this thread is bullocks, silly. If one JUST raids for the itemlevel they are doing it wrong anyway.....

There are lots of reasons people raid mythic and you can choose to raid mythic for 1 or many of those reasons.... "what?! some one has a different motivation then me? Well that just makes NO SENSE, there is no way any view other then mine could be conceived as a reason to do this activity."

/s aside. Why can't some one raid purely wanting to be high ilvl? Getting ilvl cause they can is what a lot of players arguing in this thread want, casuals and hardcores alike... its called character progression and more people want it.

[Vaerys]

There are people in my guild who have 905+ ilvl equipped and their particular characters have never once step foot into a mythic raid.

Perfect example:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...korgath/baxtab

907, not a single mythic boss kill. This guy happens to be one of my irl friends and even he mentions that whats the point of doing mythic to get what 2-5 average ilvls higher than what he is currently at barring extreme rng.

My hunter is exactly like your friend. 907 item level off of Mythic+ and Heroic WF/TF, zero mythic raid bosses in Legion.

What's the point of doing Mythic? To hit 915+ and be the best you can be.

My guild is transferring to a higher pop server to push Mythic progression, after being stuck in Heroic since SoO due to roster and low pop recruiting issues.

[Jaylock]

And yet despite that your ilvl is 896... how so if Warforged or TF rain abundantly?

I have about 4 times your Heroic NH kills and I use whole 2 items from Heroic NH and only one of then was a REALLY good TF shot that would put baseline Mythic NH items to shame, another is just a meager upgrade I got today over mythic item I had in that slot.

On the other hand, I have less mythic kills to your heroic kills and yet my average ilvl is 15 higher than yours and I don't grind M+ either.

As you said, i havent run heroic NH as many times on this character as you have on yours, so its obvious that my character would have a lower ilvl in general. I also havent touched a mythic raid on my paladin, and YET my item level is the base mythic ilvl as if I had killed mythic bosses and gotten 895 gear from them.

Case in point. I can guarantee you that I would be pushing much harder to mythic raid again if I felt there was enough incentive to do so for the amount of time it takes to raid in mythic. Again the difficulty / reward ratio for mythic is much lower now than it has been in the past.

[Jaylock]

I know that this is something that has been proposed before but if the WF/TF were to be brought into the next expansion then I would just cap the TF to +15 of the content you are currently doing with a reduced chance to WF/TF. So it would be:

Heroic 5man: 845->860
Mythic 5man: 860->875
Mythic+2: 865->880
...
Mythic+10: 890->905
Normal Raid: 870->885; 875->890; 880->895
Heroic Raid: 885->900; 890->905; 895->910
Mythic Raid: 900->915; 905->920; 910->925

So this way people "target" their difficulty. If you want gear equivalent to Heroic Raid gear then you can do M9+ or get very lucky in M6+ or get very lucky in Normal Raids or just do the Heroic Raids. That way you don't have higher geared people populating the lower M+ requiring overgeared ilvl, also you dont have an abundance of N HM 900+ only groups for raids. This will be needed to be coupled with a reduction in required AP in general since the only incentive to do lower end content is to help other people/friends/guildies. I think if people targeted their own difficulty and didnt really have an incentive to run lower gear content it could help a lot with perceived burnout.

It used to be like that in WoD and MoP. It was a great system and encouraged players to push to higher difficulties to get better gear.

Again the system now just feels like as you gain higher ilvls, you feel less inclined to do the more difficult content because what the fuck is the point?

[Slicer299]

The difference is that it keeps LFR players playing. Would u rather they stop playing and blizzard/wow lose money? If both sides don't need it(works both way's as u put it) then no reason to remove it.

Goals keep people playing.

Stop spreading the lie that LFR is what keeps the lights on at Blizzard. It is not, and never has been, the reason why WoW is still around. And the people who run LFR certainly don't need the ability to get better than Mythic level gear to get them to play, as it's never once existed in the game prior to this expansion. The Titanforge system is absolutely broken, people running LFR have no right to have a chance at Mythic ilvl or higher gear without doing Mythic content.

Gear needs to not be able to proc higher than the bottom of the next level of content above it. LFR shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl that drops in Normal. Normal shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl in Heroic and Heroic shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl in Mythic. When people can get 925 gear out of LFR, that absolutely devalues Mythic content, no matter what anyone else says. They are dead wrong. Mythic players have literally said "What's the point" to putting in the effort to run Mythic when easier content has the chance to drop better gear.

[kalaratic]

base ilvl mythic gear sucks. i'd really like them to explore more forced or increased chance for warforged/titanforged like in ToT for mythic

[Gaidax]

There are people in my guild who have 905+ ilvl equipped and their particular characters have never once step foot into a mythic raid.

Perfect example:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...korgath/baxtab

907, not a single mythic boss kill. This guy happens to be one of my irl friends and even he mentions that whats the point of doing mythic to get what 2-5 average ilvls higher than what he is currently at barring extreme rng.

The point is, several players who would otherwise desire to push harder into mythic raiding dont because there is little incentive to go raid at that level other than a mount from the hardest boss in the raid (which happens to be the last boss).

Which is still no match for any decent mythic raider, which is my point exactly.

He killed 136 Heroic NH bosses, I killed only 47 Mythic ones and my average ilvl is still 4 more, lul. And you know what's the kicker? I am 3rd from last of our raiders in the guild on ilvl, because I was unlucky as FUCK this tier. Our better geared raiders are ilvl 915+ and wipe the shit out of your friend there gear-wise. For example our DH is ilvl 916 with 9 items being from Mythic NH raiding.

So basically that dude in your guild who happened to be lucky as fuck is not even close to a mythic guy who had shit luck this tier and does not even grind dungs.

[SoulSoBreezy]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.



I'm not against specific cosmetic/mount-related Mythic-only rewards, but there is no reason to cap gear. If I pick up a 915+ from our heroic raid by chance, that doesn't devalue a mythic raider's achievement.

IMO, @Jaylock is wrong on the approach, but I agree that TF makes the rewards from mythic raiding (and other difficult content) feel a bit less meaningful when it's possible to walk in with an equivalent item level.

I'd be up for capping TF at heroic level gear; I've preached that numerous times. Otherwise high level keystones, the weekly chest, arena rating and mythic raiding should be the levels of play that give a base item level higher than everything else.

Make TF what it should be, a bonus. At the moment it's a progression path.

[Deleted]

And yet despite that your ilvl is 896... how so if Warforged or TF rain abundantly?

I have about 4 times your Heroic NH kills and I use whole 2 items from Heroic NH and only one of then was a REALLY good TF shot that would put baseline Mythic NH items to shame, another is just a meager upgrade I got today over mythic item I had in that slot.

On the other hand, I have less mythic kills to your heroic kills and yet my average ilvl is 15 higher than yours and I don't grind M+ either.

Jay makes a good point though, https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...korgath/baxtab has a total of 2 mythic boss kills compared to your 47 kills. Yet he is only 4 item levels lower.

Lets say Baxtab started raiding mythic NH now, there would be very few gear upgrades which I know would ruin some of the fun for me

[Jaylock]

Stop spreading the lie that LFR is what keeps the lights on at Blizzard. It is not, and never has been, the reason why WoW is still around. And the people who run LFR certainly don't need the ability to get better than Mythic level gear to get them to play, as it's never once existed in the game prior to this expansion. The Titanforge system is absolutely broken, people running LFR have no right to have a chance at Mythic ilvl or higher gear without doing Mythic content.

Gear needs to not be able to proc higher than the bottom of the next level of content above it. LFR shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl that drops in Normal. Normal shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl in Heroic and Heroic shouldn't proc higher than the lowest ilvl in Mythic. When people can get 925 gear out of LFR, that absolutely devalues Mythic content, no matter what anyone else says. They are dead wrong. Mythic players have literally said "What's the point" to putting in the effort to run Mythic when easier content has the chance to drop better gear.

I agree with everything you said here, but in an effort to continue to appease the "majority" that run low end content, i proposed to stop the TF of gear below a mythic raid to the mythic base ilvl, but that is STILL not enough for some entitled players, especially the one you are quoting.

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Jay makes a good point though, https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...korgath/baxtab has a total of 2 mythic boss kills compared to your 47 kills. Yet he is only 4 item levels lower.

Lets say Baxtab started raiding mythic NH now, there would be very few gear upgrades which I know would ruin some of the fun for me

Exactly this. Mythic isn't as fun when you know its going to take a lucky RNG proc to get an upgrade over what you can already get from getting lucky RNG procs from lesser content.

[Awsumpossum]

I often see arguments made about the self-esteem of high end raiders and the desire to be exclusive, but the vast majority of mythic players that I interact with don't care about this all that much. This arguments seems to stem from the perception that we're all a bunch of snarky exclusive douche bags which I don't find accurate. Or maybe we're talking about a different type of mythic raider.

The issue for me, and many of the people I play with, is the feeling that you need to constantly run trivial content for the chance of upgrades each week (especially during the progression phase). We cleared NH something like US 29th as a 9 hour per week guild and the only piece that I have that rolled past 910 is from heroic content. The counterargument is typically, "nobody's making you do this." Personally, I think this argument lacks creativity and is fairly short-sighted despite being "true" in some respects. There are, however, many incentive-type systems that people subject themselves to because of real, or perceived, necessity.

Personally, I'd love if it only rolled up to base mythic not because I have a desire to be exclusive, but because I'm tired of running multiple raids each week Yes, yes, I am responsible for my own decisions, blizzard isn't.