Should iLvL below Mythic Raiding Max out BELOW Mythic Base?

[Zan15]

Yes, ohhh god yes. This would really solve my biggest problem right now, which is that most of my guilds raidgroup have items better then base mythic, so people have 0 motivation to go into mythic.


IF WF and TF maxed out at 5 item lvl under the current mythic base, what would be lost? The only lvl where it would have an effect is Heroic, but that just creates a natural line from heroic to mythic, which is currently lacking. Mythic has a problem right now and that is that people are not finding it rewarding enough to actually give a crap about it, even if their skill is there to do the content. Having a unique level of item lvl in mythic would make mythic players shine more out and make it a much more lucretive difficulty, where the reward is not only high, but totally unique for the difficulty.

i call bullshit on this.
feel free to link your guild so we can see all these lucky folks who have managed to get better in almost all slots then mythic gear without running mythic.

[Cosmic Janitor]

If raiding is all about "MAH GEARZ", then you're not a real raider. Real raiders raid for the first kill in the quickest time possible. You get an achievement with a date that proves you killed X boss at X time. THAT is the reward and prestige, not ilvl.

Hahahahaha. Yeah tell me more Mr. True Scottsman.

[Tommi]

Hahahahaha. Yeah tell me more

I find it weird how people look at "WORLD FIRST RACE" as real raiding, which is all about first kills, then look towards gear as a measure of success in raiding. Makes no sense to me tbh.

Mr. True Scottsman.

Thanks for noticing! I am indeed a true Scotsman. 8th generation pure blood Scot.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I find it weird how people look at "WORLD FIRST RACE" as real raiding, which is all about first kills, then look towards gear as a measure of success in raiding. Makes no sense to me tbh.

The world first race has nothing to do with real raiding or at least does not define it, because then only 250 odd people would be real raiders.

Thanks for noticing! I am indeed a true Scotsman. 8th generation pure blood Scot.

I know, right? That made that fallacy even better.

[Flurryfang]

i call bullshit on this.
feel free to link your guild so we can see all these lucky folks who have managed to get better in almost all slots then mythic gear without running mythic.

So... Even though NH Heroic have been out for about 4 months and Broken Shore nethershard vendor has been out for also a few months, you really don't believe, that random warforge/titanforge over this period, could bring the average player in a 16-21 man guild up above 900 item lvl? Personally, i have 4 items over 900 and even 1 915. Mix that together with my legendaries and we have 6 slots, where the mythic bosses need to WF/TF their loot for me to be interested.

And sure, i have slots that can be upgraded, but when you have your first couple of kills in mythic, where you really give it your all and have spent alot of time to prepare, and then only get 1-2 useable items from 3 bosses, you get mostly bad experiences.

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From the perspective of a Mythic raider, nope. Maybe I'm just bitter and cynical but I don't give a shit about LFR plebs with Mythic quality gear because

a.) TF'd gear at Mythic quality is super fucking rare and the item probably made that player's day/month/year
b.) a fucking mongoloid with really awesome gear is still a fucking mongoloid

I don't think the problem is with LFR players with mythic gear. In my opnion, they can have all the fun they want with that. The problem is that the closer you get to mythic quality content, the more likely you are to get mythic quaility gear. So when you have cleared heroic NH and now have an average item lvl of 905, the reward for then trying out the much harder mythic is greatly lowered, since the gear is pretty much useless unless it is warforged/titanforged.

In the end, would lowering the max WF/TF to heroic base, really be a problem for LFR players and non-raiders? They still get an amazing item and i would proberly believe, that they would not care about losing 10-20 item lvl off an item, that is already gonna be the best item, that they will ever get.

[kamuimac]

Shouldn't you just be closing the thread instead of falling for obvious bait? Damn.

J. is smart - changing his avatar from time to time and people fall for it

regardless of trollbait

hell no - anything that delues mythic raiding is super healthy for game - what would be even more healthy would be complete removal of mythic raids and puting this resources anywhere else

[Deleted]

It isn't about other people getting gear, it is about being rewarded relative to the difficulty of the content you are doing.

That is something this game has never have.
I see a lot of people saying this same sentence, being mainly worried by the loot people from certain lower difficulties get, but at the same time i never see people asking blizzard for downscaling people in each difficulty to a set ilevel.
If you get the exact same rewards clearing mythic NH with for ex 45 traits and ilevel 880, than a group with 52 traits and ilevel 900, then the game is not rewarding people in relation with the difficulty of the content, in any of the four dificulties.

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If raiding is all about "MAH GEARZ", then you're not a real raider. Real raiders raid for the first kill in the quickest time possible. You get an achievement with a date that proves you killed X boss at X time. THAT is the reward and prestige, not ilvl.

that is ok, but then what is the incentive for doing the raid more than once?

[iNUKE]

Should mythic raiding become lfr with minimum ilvl to join thing?

[Aggrophobic]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.

Having the same rewards for all content is rather stupid though.
A lot of players play for rewards and giving the same items to the people that AFK in LFR and the ones that work long on hard on mythic means that there is no reason to aim for the higher difficulties.

Legions made sure that you need to work harder for less. Thats hardly fun.

[Ozyorkbourne]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.



I'm not against specific cosmetic/mount-related Mythic-only rewards, but there is no reason to cap gear. If I pick up a 915+ from our heroic raid by chance, that doesn't devalue a mythic raider's achievement.

Hi. Mythic raider here to clarify this marvelous gem of poor interpretation.

The reason we get salty as mythic raiders is when you go in to mythic, work hard to kill a boss and then have to DE more than 1/2 the loot on early kills because suprise, hc items have titty-forged to be better ilvl. It isn't anything to do with self-esteem. Not sure why you think it does, since he said 'devalues', which isn't inaccurate. Look drops are devalued by being worth less than if hc items were capped. I will agree however, it doesn't demean the achievement of actually killing the boss.

It is however irritating when I see someone with a normal DoS ilvl 925 who hasn't stepped in to heroic difficulty raids. I don't quit over it, but it makes me have an internal debate about Blizzards methodology shift from providing gear directly for the next difficulty so there's a greater sense of staggered character progression.

I don't care that much about it though since, if someone is trash at playing the character, gear won't improve them. It's more or less the same debate as "should LFR be a thing" where I have to say, just because I don't use the tour bus doesn't mean I want it to erupt in flames. I simply don't care.

[Deleted]

Hi. Mythic raider here to clarify this marvelous gem of poor interpretation.

The reason we get salty as mythic raiders is when you go in to mythic, work hard to kill a boss and then have to DE more than 1/2 the loot on early kills because suprise, hc items have titty-forged to be better ilvl. It isn't anything to do with self-esteem. Not sure why you think it does, since he said 'devalues', which isn't inaccurate. Look drops are devalued by being worth less than if hc items were capped. I will agree however, it doesn't demean the achievement of actually killing the boss.

It is however irritating when I see someone with a normal DoS ilvl 925 who hasn't stepped in to heroic difficulty raids. I don't quit over it, but it makes me have an internal debate about Blizzards methodology shift from providing gear directly for the next difficulty so there's a greater sense of staggered character progression.

I don't care that much about it though since, if someone is trash at playing the character, gear won't improve them. It's more or less the same debate as "should LFR be a thing" where I have to say, just because I don't use the tour bus doesn't mean I want it to erupt in flames. I simply don't care.

Your post is quite right, it is as you described, truth is risk/reward has never been perfect in the game and in legion expansion it is worst than ever.
I have found this problem myself outside of raiding, in mythic+, it is difficult to convince people to do higher than Mythic+10 runs, because the chest gives you the maximum with a +10, so most people are not interested in doing a higher one.
But this is the way the game it is designed at the moment, it does sometimes feel stupid as hell, like for example not getting never a leg when doing Mythic+, and getting one in one of the chests of broken shore, it felt wrong, but as i said this is how the game works now, and i think it is gonna continue in this direction.
The only tip i can offer you is doing as i do, i try to do challenging content only because of the enjoyment of doing that challenging content, not for the rewards, but i do agree that it makes finding people for doing that content even harder.

[Deleted]

Someone who is shit at the game with 920 ilvl is still going to do shit output, regardless of how lucky they get with Titanforged gear. Whilst I personally think it should cap just purely to stop mythic raiders finding the need to run older content for a change at a 920 XYZ, it still doesn't change the fact that someone with 900 ilvl LFR gear is either using that gear because it's the best they have or more likely, because they physically aren't capable of doing mythic to get the 905 version.

Warforging was fine, this stupidass non existent cap on Titanforging is not. When Blizzard adds unique items such as the AA ring form CoS, the long list of trinkets from Night Hold or Drape of Shame they'd have to be flat out retarded to not realise a certain level of player would go back and farm for them because low and behold, these items are really fucking good.

Whilst I'm on that subject, Night Hold (and EN I guess) trinkets aren't even the big problem when it comes to running old content... The big problem is Tomb dps trinkets are fucking terrible and a 925 Draught for Warrior (pre nerf) was out-performing the 940 pieces of shit in Tomb. If the power level we slowly progress as players was more linear we wouldn't have this issue.

As a Mythic raider, I couldn't give a rats arse what some afk shitter gets in LFR, I'm more than likely never going into interact with them and my reaction will literally be "Ha, lucky fuck" and that's it. If they happen to be a good player and apply to the guild I'm in then hell, I'm all for it because it benefits me. Too many people in this game want to be a special snowflake with super awesome gear, I wouldn't say self-esteem is an issue it's more forced inconvenience when a normal piece procs 40 ilvls whilst a mythic piece which is "harder" to get, doesn't proc shit.


tl;dr: Titanforge is the only true problem, Warforging (ableit a pain in the dick and very 25man beneficial) was fine.

[Hoofey]

Hi. Mythic raider here to clarify this marvelous gem of poor interpretation.

The reason we get salty as mythic raiders is when you go in to mythic, work hard to kill a boss and then have to DE more than 1/2 the loot on early kills because suprise, hc items have titty-forged to be better ilvl. It isn't anything to do with self-esteem. Not sure why you think it does, since he said 'devalues', which isn't inaccurate. Look drops are devalued by being worth less than if hc items were capped. I will agree however, it doesn't demean the achievement of actually killing the boss.

It is however irritating when I see someone with a normal DoS ilvl 925 who hasn't stepped in to heroic difficulty raids. I don't quit over it, but it makes me have an internal debate about Blizzards methodology shift from providing gear directly for the next difficulty so there's a greater sense of staggered character progression.

I don't care that much about it though since, if someone is trash at playing the character, gear won't improve them. It's more or less the same debate as "should LFR be a thing" where I have to say, just because I don't use the tour bus doesn't mean I want it to erupt in flames. I simply don't care.

Pretty much this.

As the lootmaster in a mythic raiding guild, its extremely frustrating to see 50 - 80% of the loot get thrown into the disenchant grinder every week. Not only that, apart from tier tokens, we've disenchanted all the items on firstkills in NH. First kill! And the loot gets disenchanted or given to people for silly offspeccs. So much for getting rewarded for hard content.
Sure, achievements are nice but it also leaves a bittersweet taste in your mouth. Like why are we even doing this when the rewards are so bad?

What I'd like to see is a maximum of +15 ilvl titanforge on items. That way you could still get decent upgrades from lower difficulties and still have the hardest content feel rewarding.

Edit:
Another thing I'd like to add is that the titanforge system creates an unbalance within raiding guilds as well, one that is based on luck.

For example, at the top end in our guild we have a warrior at ilvl 917 and at the bottom end we got people around 908-910. Some of the guys with 910 ilvl has killed more bosses on mythic than the 917 warrior, but they haven't been lucky with proccing WF\TF, leaving them at a disadvantage. This can be extremely frustrating to some people, since they put in more effort and is rewarded with less gear.

[Osmeric]

As the lootmaster in a mythic raiding guild, its extremely frustrating to see 50 - 80% of the loot get thrown into the disenchant grinder every week.

You need to understand the trick Blizzard pulled this expansion.

Blizzard has this design philosophy where they try to make "avoiding a penalty" look like a bonus. The famous example of that was rested XP. Players react negatively if you tell them "if you're not rested you have a 50% XP penalty", but treat it as a nice gift if you say "when you are rested you have a 100% XP bonus", even if these things are exactly the same (with the base XP from actitivies adjusted for each, as the designers can do.)

In Legion, Blizzard has reduced the drop rate of "good" gear from raids. Unforged gear, the stuff you'e DEing? It's garbage that also drops to hide this fact. Of course you're DEing it. That's what is supposed to usually happen with that stuff.

[Korban]

Hey, i still have no idea how warforged/titanforged works.

Can a WQ item that is usually ilvl 850 proc to 925 Titanforged? Or a LFR item proc to 925 Titanforged?

Or are there any caps on how many levels an item can gain from it's base ilevel?

[Temp name]

Hey, i still have no idea how warforged/titanforged works.

Can a WQ item that is usually ilvl 850 proc to 925 Titanforged? Or a LFR item proc to 925 Titanforged?

Or are there any caps on how many levels an item can gain from it's base ilevel?

Any item that drops from a dungeon, raid, WQ, or token (Basically any 110 content) has a little + symbol next to it.
Any item with that symbol can roll up to the max itemlevel (currently 925). Which means, theoretically, I can get a fresh 110 character, do a WQ that awards 800 gear, and get a 925 out of it.

[Osmeric]

Any item that drops from a dungeon, raid, WQ, or token (Basically any 110 content) has a little + symbol next to it.
Any item with that symbol can roll up to the max itemlevel (currently 925). Which means, theoretically, I can get a fresh 110 character, do a WQ that awards 800 gear, and get a 925 out of it.

With the understanding that the probability of getting +N ilvls of forging is supposed to decline exponentially with N. Going from LFR to 925 should be extremely unlikely.

Looking at my main's gear, the titanforged items seem mostly to have come from M+, the M+ weekly chest, and weekly quests. Those might have a higher chance?

[Tradu]

That isn't for you to decide, You don't get to chose who gets what.

Content should reward people appropriately for the difficulty/effort. LFR being able to reward items of normal raid(or even higher) quality is not appropriate to the difficulty/effort.

[Sting]

Going to be break my own rule and actually post in a jaylock thread since the discussion seems to be atleast somewhat worthwhile.

I think a better change would be to keep titanforging for lfr, normal and heroic as it is and just make mythic drop the max ilvl versions as baseline (so 925). That actually makes mythic raiding worth it lootwise. On our raids we dusted a good amount of items, even if they were from first kills.

[Direpenguin]

If your self esteem hinges on "Wahhhh that person can get something and I'm not good enough" that's your problem. It goes both ways. The ones with low self esteem that caused these issues was NOT the high end players but the bad players who were jealous and started to call them special snowflakes pejoratively. It's funny you get infracted for calling LFR players baddies, but this phantom special snowflake term is never dealt with.

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And LFR players don't need high ilvl or tier. You're not forced to have tier so stop clamoring for it. Works both ways.

No lower tier players are bitching about it due to self-esteem, it's strictly the quoteunquote elite players that keep crying about people getting higher ilvls of gear. The fact is, higher ilvl gear makes EVERYTHING in the game easier and more effecient to do. Or do you feel only the top 2% of players should be able to more efficiently participate in the daily grindfest that is WoW?