After G7 summit, Merkel: "Europe Must Plot Own Course"

[Mittens]

o_0

As long as they don't actually step (and even if they do lol) up their military then this is either cheap talk or idiot foreign policy.

[Gamevizier]

So Trump's brilliant foreign policy is to piss off their allies and giving them the middle finger? nice job dimwit.

Without the EU to back them up America's influence around the globe will decrease tremendously which in turn will embolden regional powers to go against the US interests without fear of a unified response.

Turkey is focused on becoming an independent player and plans to go against the west. now EU wants to forge their own path. Britain is already out of the EU.

The 3 countries I mentioned were the major bulwarks against Russia's influence in the west. now they're no longer unified and it's hardly unlikely that they're gonna follow the US into any wars or military operations around the globe (unless the invaded country is gonna pose a serious threat to these countries). These countries aided the US in their wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What does that translate to? without the strength to back up their tough talk america will not have the influence they once had in the world, why should any country fear the US when they see that the powerful US allies are no longer behind it which further increases the price of any military action.

So far Trumps' foreign policy is going exactly as predicted: it's gonna Isolate the US on the international theater as more allies lose confidence in America's ability to protect their interests.

so Good Job america, You voted to never become great again.

[Deleted]

Hilarious coming from you.

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You should see a psychiatrist.

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How did you come to that conclusion, she said nothing remotely like that.

No, pal, I just know my history.

[Slant]

The deals are all very well, I'm talking about military interference. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

No, you weren't. Neither is Trump. Don't be surprised if we still go to Canada first. They seem to be eager to deal with us. Unlike the US that talks about punitive custom charges.

[Cyberowl]

o_0

As long as they don't actually step (and even if they do lol) up their military then this is either cheap talk or idiot foreign policy.

What we have seen the last months from the US was idiot foreign policy, thanks for noticing.

[unfilteredJW]

No, pal, I just know my history.

"Member when Germany did the awful things? I member"

This is either the most amazing lack of self awareness I've witnessed or a fantastic act.

[Deleted]

Actually, one of the catalysts that ultimately led to the foundation of Germany as a proper nation state was aforementioned Napoleon invading the many territories it consisted of before. Germany and France had been enemies for quite a while afterwards, though an outright invasion of France did not happen until the world wars. In WW1, it was inevitable, due to the threat of a war on two fronts. Russia was mobilizing in the East, intent on joining the war against one of Germany's allies to the south, so Germany was mobilizing as well. You can read all the intent you want into that, but the German kaiser and Russian tsar tried to defuse the situation, albeit with neither trusting the other well enough to de-mobilize first.
Germany, due to the alliances it was in, thus was brought into war with Russia - which was allied with France. That meant France was going to enter the war against Germany as well. However, Russia would take longer to arrive at the German borders, so Germany saw its best chance at survival in trying to force France out of the war asap. There were some negotiations to avert fighting, but again, one could not fully trust the other side to uphold any deals, so those broke down.

That, ultimately, is a vastly different situation than the Blitz in WW2, which was mostly a war of aggression on Germany's side. No one disputes that one. But by putting both these events on the same level, that is a blatant revision of history.
Also, not the whole world was at war with Germany in WW1... It saw the Tripple Entante pitted against Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary (with assorted smaller nations involved on both sides). The six great powers of Europe were split up like that. Though you are right that Germany was not just a minor player in all of this. Of its alliance, it proved the strongest and most dangerous - which was why it was brought down so much by the treaty of Versailles.

You're telling me that the ultimatum that the Austro-Hungarians sent to Serbia was in anyway acceptable (despite it being sent in order to provoke the war). You're telling me the Germans, who then initiated the war by invading Luxembourg, were not the aggressors? You're telling me that the Germans didn't invade Belgium after Belgium refused to allow the Germans to use their country as a launch pad for their invasion of French? Is that all just made up? None of that's true, right? You clearly do not know your history, or you're blatantly lying.

Oh, poor Germans, they were just so confused. They really were just trying to be the good guys! Stop revising history. The Germans and their alliance initiated WW1.

[Slant]

He is talking about the whole western hemisphere with his reference to the Monroe Doctrine.

He can't possibly be that stupid.

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No, pal, I just know my history.

You don't. That is the problem.

[Mittens]

What we have seen the last months from the US was idiot foreign policy, thanks for noticing.

Ok, say they do actually step up their military, this gives us to scenarios:

- Nothing happens and the US and EU(Germany) continues doing what they always do. (The US leads and the EU follows) Meaning this is cheap(figuratively, since it would be stupidly expensive) talk

- The EU (Germany) decides to drift away from the US essentially weakening the effectiveness of NATO and related alliances just us Putin, China, etc wanted.

Like I said, idiots or cheap talk.

[Deleted]

I disagree. The US was getting a bit big. They had no counter balance. We can see the result of that now. I think it would be rather healthy for the US, for Europe and probably the world as a whole if Europe strengthened a bit and provided an actual counter balance to the US. And also keep them in check and tell them when they fuck up.

Make no mistake, when push comes to shove, the US and Europe will always stand shoulder by shoulder.

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You don't need Germany to conduct power projection. But Germany and your NATO allies sure make the job much easier for you. When you have medivacs, they get flown to Germany, not the US. Your theatre command sits in Europe, not the US. You have major logistics hubs in Europe that you like to use. And so on and so forth. You could do all of that without Europe, but boy, those trillions these wars cost you? Double the figure without Europe...

WW1 was hardly instigated by Germany. Historians agree that Germany was caught up in a rather fucked up net of alliances and at some point became a passenger of events. Germany also hasn't wanted to dominate Europe since the fall of Napoleon. Germany wasn't even a thing back then. It was a loose collection of tiny states. A fractured proto-nation if you like. Hardly anyone was thinking outside Germany in those days. The main bullet points were internal German things like Prussia vs. Austria.

Good thing you bring up the holocaust. Not sure what it has to do with anything here, but no Germany bashing post would be complete without mentioning the holocaust.

You didn't "split" Germany. Russia did. The US never wanted a split Germany. Quite the opposite, they wanted Germany to remain whole. The split was feared to give Germans another excuse for resentment towards the occupation. You're in Europe today, because Europe lets you. Don't make the mistake to think that the US could somehow be here without our permission.

And you're not in Europe to protect against us. You're here, because we asked you to be here. You're our guests. If the US truly acted like you pretend, we'd have uninvited them a long time ago. Newsflash for the historically challenged: Germany is a sovereign nation at peace. WW2 is over. Germany is not occupied. Look up 4+2 treaty of 1990 on Google.

You're telling me Germany was a loose collection of states at the start of WW1? Are you kidding me? And no, historians don't agree that the Germans just got caught up in events. Historians agree that Germany invaded Luxembourg , then invaded the Belgium because the Dutch refused to allow them to use their country as a launching pad for their invasion. Historians agree that the Germans invaded France soon afterward. Historians agree then drew the US into the war by sinking our ships, and attempting persuade Mexico to invade the United States. The Germans, with their alliance, were the aggressors. Any other conclusion is revision of history. And yes, I brought up the holocaust, the Germans killed millions and it should never be forgotten. I don't care what your country is like now. The Germans committed the greatest atrocity against all of mankind, in all of it's history.

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"Member when Germany did the awful things? I member"

This is either the most amazing lack of self reflection I've witnessed or a fantastic act.

Meanwhile the Germans say, "member when germany was on its own? I member"

[Cyberowl]

Ok, say they do actually step up their military, this gives us to scenarios:

- Nothing happens and the US and EU(Germany) continues doing what they always do. (The US leads and the EU follows) Meaning this is cheap(figuratively, since it would be stupidly expensive) talk

- The EU (Germany) decides to drift away from the US essentially weakening the effectiveness of NATO and related alliances just us Putin, China, etc wanted.

Did you even follow the G7 summit?

Climate, protectionism, refugees and Russia were the topics. Trump was on the different side on most topics and only came around on protectionism at the last second.

Nobody gave a fuck about what Donald had to say about the military, at least not on the G7 summit.

[unfilteredJW]

Meanwhile the Germans say, "member when germany was on its own? I member"

So lack of self awareness.

Got it.

[Deleted]

Germany's past domination was based in Prussian militarism. No other German state drove progress and belligerence like Prussia mostly because it wasn't quite rich in resources and its people were poor but it was ambitious and scheming rivalling all the other scheming powers at that time. Imperial Austria and France, both saw adversaries in Prussia. So Prussia always lingered on the verge of self-destruction and only avoided it through sheer luck a few times. Fast forward this fostered a culture of military primacy with stern characteristics (most Prussian rulers were Calvinists). Since most of Germany in the ended up in Prussian reigns one way or another it carried on to be adopted by most of Germany and most easily by states that were naturally loyal to Prussia. This tradition didn't die even with WWI. The Weimar Republic even made sure that it didn't. After WWII Prussia was the first state to be eradicated completely and again with it all militaristic traditions. This was one of the pillars on which the Allied powers agreed to.

So if you want to judge Germany by its past you need to get your head around the fact that if Germany seeks to dominate it's not by military and all your stationed armies won't help you as the new kind of dominance isn't of the kind that can be beaten with a head-on war. In fact when I hear German domination I am less inclined to believe that it even warrants the same kind of perspective. It requires a different perspective and not the one that tries to bring up the Holocaust and put it in line with modern German intentions. Not only is it an insult to the people who died in the Holocaust but it's also awfully contrived and utterly out of place.

I don't think they're trying to dominate with their military. I'm saying they're trying to dominate Europe, as they have been trying to do for the last couple of centuries. I'm saying they're trying to dominate Europe through the EU and their economy. And you're right, it's not our armies which will stop the EU. It's the countries inching further and further away from it.

[Slant]

You're telling me that the ultimatum that the Austro-Hungarians sent to Serbia was in anyway acceptable (despite it being sent in order to provoke the war). You're telling me the Germans, who then initiated the war by invading Luxembourg, were not the aggressors? You're telling me that the Germans didn't invade Belgium after Belgium refused to allow the Germans to use their country as a launch pad for their invasion of French? Is that all just made up? None of that's true, right? You clearly do not know your history, or you're blatantly lying.

Oh, poor Germans, they were just so confused. They really were just trying to be the good guys! Stop revising history. The Germans and their alliance initiated WW1.

You don't even know why WW1 was started, do you? There was no ultimatum. There was an instant declaration of war. Reason: The assassination of the Austrian heir apparent. Wars have been started for less, I'd like to add. That the war started wasn't the problem. I think everyone can agree that killing the heir apparent of a nation is quite legitimately a reason to fuck someone's day up.

The whole problem was the complicated constructs of alliances and counter alliances in Europe. They were absolutely the direct opposite of the type of cooperation we see in Europe today. Why the fuck do you think the EU even exists? The sole main purpose for the original treaties that evolved into what we call EU now was to bring Germany and France into a relationship where one could not hurt the other without hurting themselves. As far as artificial bonds go, this is the bloody grand slam of all international politics in the history of mankind.

And now you come along and try to tell us that Germany ought to be distrusted because... WW1 and WW2? Disregarding that after WW2 there was a cut? That in 1990 there was another cut? And I'm not even begrudging you the right to critically observe and question everything Germany does. But please, do it on the merits of today's Germany, not the Germany of two generations ago. You're being unfair and prejudiced.

[Deleted]

He can't possibly be that stupid.

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You don't. That is the problem.

Clearly you don't, buddy. You have no idea why ww1 started, and you downplay the holocaust with "that doesn't matter". These forums come to a new low when you have a mod downplaying the holocaust.

[Kasierith]

You don't even know why WW1 was started, do you? There was no ultimatum. There was an instant declaration of war. Reason: The assassination of the Austrian heir apparent. Wars have been started for less, I'd like to add. That the war started wasn't the problem. I think everyone can agree that killing the heir apparent of a nation is quite legitimately a reason to fuck someone's day up.

The whole problem was the complicated constructs of alliances and counter alliances in Europe. They were absolutely the direct opposite of the type of cooperation we see in Europe today. Why the fuck do you think the EU even exists? The sole main purpose for the original treaties that evolved into what we call EU now was to bring Germany and France into a relationship where one could not hurt the other without hurting themselves. As far as artificial bonds go, this is the bloody grand slam of all international politics in the history of mankind.

And now you come along and try to tell us that Germany ought to be distrusted because... WW1 and WW2? Disregarding that after WW2 there was a cut? That in 1990 there was another cut? And I'm not even begrudging you the right to critically observe and question everything Germany does. But please, do it on the merits of today's Germany, not the Germany of two generations ago. You're being unfair and prejudiced.

The sad thing to think about is that at the time, German was set to usher in a new age of political and technological innovation. After a series of wars removing France from their lauded position as the prime powerhouse largely through these technological advances, Germany was in a position to be the world's dominant superpower as the influence of the British Empire began its steady wane that would ultimately be accelerated by the wars. If the British hadn't chosen to interpret a treaty in a particular way, Germany would have summarily crushed France, forced the eastern powers to concede, and the powder keg could have gone off cleanly in the open, aired its problems, and then returned to normal affairs. But the British kind of threw a wrench into everything, largely because of said wane against a sharply rising German nation, and what could have been one more of many, many wars became bogged down in a massive war of attrition.

[Cyberowl]

Clearly you don't, buddy. You have no idea why ww1 started, and you downplay the holocaust with "that doesn't matter". These forums come to a new low when you have a mod downplaying the holocaust.

Afaik Slant isn't a Trump supporter.

[Mittens]

Did you even follow the G7 summit?

Climate, protectionism, refugees and Russia were the topics. Trump was on the different side on most topics and only came around on protectionism at the last second.

Nobody gave a fuck about what Donald had to say about the military, at least not on the G7 summit.

The EU doesn't depend on the US on neither of those things save for Russia (Which falls under the above situation).

What a nothingburger of a statement, specially coming from Angela "union at different speeds" Merkel

[Slant]

You're telling me Germany was a loose collection of states at the start of WW1? Are you kidding me? And no, historians don't agree that the Germans just got caught up in events. Historians agree that Germany invaded Luxembourg , then invaded the Belgium because the Dutch refused to allow them to use their country as a launching pad for their invasion. Historians agree that the Germans invaded France soon afterward. Historians agree then drew the US into the war by sinking our ships, and attempting persuade Mexico to invade the United States. The Germans, with their alliance, were the aggressors. Any other conclusion is revision of history. And yes, I brought up the holocaust, the Germans killed millions and it should never be forgotten. I don't care what your country is like now. The Germans committed the greatest atrocity against all of mankind, in all of it's history.

Meanwhile the Germans say, "member when germany was on its own? I member"

Let me quote you:

And how is my premise historically inaccurate? Germany has trIed to dominate Europe since the fall Napoleon. That's historically accurate. Don't try to play down the past because it doesn't conform to your current view of Germany. You can disagree with me on their intentions now, but their past intentions are historical facts.

When exactly do you think Napoleon lived? I can tell you when he died. 1821. At that point, Germany was still the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the first German revolution of 1848 was still over 20 years away and Austria still dominated European politics. So, when you tell me Germany was trying to conquer Europe when Napoleon was around, then I'll tell you nope, they weren't. And you're really getting your limited historical knowledge fubar'd horribly. You're throwing two centuries of European history together. A history that is entirely too complex for your to process, apparently. Oh, there is a connection. There is a red line going all the way back to the fucking Roman Empire. But you've apparently not seen it. You're taking the wrong conclusions, mixing up the players on both sides and confuse timelines very badly. To a point where you don't even make sense if I only take your own posts as reference.

Germany was a nation in WW1, but Napoleon was 100 years before that. So when you throw around wild accusations, at least get the years right, if nothing else. I have already explained the cause of war to you. As an example that you'll understand, when 9/11 triggered Art. 5, because the US deemed itself under attack, not going into Afghanistan was not an option. It was like that before WW1. Not keeping the alliance was not an option, lest you stand alone between two alliances. Guess who's in the way of everyone getting at everyone else's throat in Europe? That's right, the country in the middle. Quite literally, between the stools here.

I'm not disagreeing about the holocaust. Clearly you haven't seen me post about that topic. I would contend two things, though: First, you're bringing up the holocaust is purely for polemic and hyperbolic reasons. The holocaust, with all its heinous nature, has nothing to do with this thread or any of the subtopics we're discussing. Second, Nazi Germany is dead. Truly, culturally, ideologically gone. For all the times that I keep talking (and bashed) for urging people to remember what happened, never forget and never repeat the mistakes, this is the one time where I'll tell you bluntly, you can go and fuck right off with that attitude. Because I won't let you judge me like a Nazi, you pompous little snot.

[Cyberowl]

The EU doesn't depend on the US on neither of those things save for Russia (Which falls under the above situation).

What a nothingburger of a statement, specially coming from Angela "union at different speeds" Merkel

It was a general statement, not a statement about military.