Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Daffan]

The reasonable way to do it would've been to allow it to titanforge up to the the ilvl of the next difficulty, say LFR NH gear can TF up to 875, Normal up to 890, Heroic up to 905 and Mythic up to 925 with mythic + on a separate system with a cap decided upon the level of keystone.

I understand their reasoning of wanting people to go back to the lower content, but it creates a weird situation where you feel forced to run normal, heroic and mythic every week in hopes of that perfect roll.

Then you have welfare nethershards which start at 880 and can boomph up really high. Basically if your a casual and use nethershards there is no content left that is interesting, it's either trivial or obsolete to you.

[kamuimac]

There's an inherent incentive in the current system already. Higher base itemlevel makes proccing max itemlevel easier. It is possible for EN LFR gear to proc 925, but it is far more likely to happen with NH Mythic gear.

exackly - the only fightinh with this sytem are pathetic neckbeards who look for real life acomplisments in computer game

blizzard should get rid of them from game for sake of majority of community

[Tradu]

exackly - the only fightinh with this sytem are pathetic neckbeards who look for real life acomplisments in computer game

blizzard should get rid of them from game for sake of majority of community

Yes, lets get rid of the most loyal part of the playerbase that plays a big role in making sure random groups actually function by carrying them. Good plan.

[kamuimac]

Yes, lets get rid of the most loyal part of the playerbase that plays a big role in making sure random groups actually function by carrying them. Good plan.

ofc - then they can get rid of hardmodes - wouldnt have to care about tuning at all - nobody would complain about non existent probleems like wf/tf, legendariesm ap grind etc

the only ones complaining about it are those "loyal " neckbeards that still make up to 2 % of playerbase max

it would be nothing but pure profits from them espeically that it would bring ton of players back to game because community would be much less toxic then.

from buisness standpoint its only logical solution

[Accendor]

N-no... it isn't. Why do you think so many top guilds have QUIT raiding seriously this expansion? It's because we WANT to only log in casually on our own time or raid time. Hardcore raiders don't want to be forced to log in more than three times a week if we don't want to naturally play that amount. Plenty of us would be checking out the patch stuff the first day like with dungeons, some of us might choose to do World Quests for paragon reputation caches for mounts if that's our thing, some of us might farm for mount we never got back in the day... but that is all optional stuff. Why do you think it's okay to push for hardcore raiders to keep logging in day after day doing this content we see as currently being highly incentivized? We don't want that now and never wanted that. We've always been fine raiding the hardest difficulty and being done with previous ones when our gear got better.

See - for every raiding guild I know that is now doing world first races the changes were great and enjoyed a lot : )

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That was not a problem caused by lack of titanforging, what the actual fuck. People were not asking to be strongly incentivized to go back and run difficulties they outgrew ages ago.

They were not asking but it was still a great idea to keep older content relevant.

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Besides, why shouldn't you only have to raid Mythic once you have it on farm? You're done with raiding this tier when you do. To me it's ludicrous that someone who kills Gul'dan on Mythic could potentially ever need to run Heroic for gear again. AP is there to encourage you to run these lower difficulties already, and LFR has its own set of incentives as well. We don't need this slot machine on top of all that.

Because the more content there is the better it is. I want to be able to do relevant stuff besides my 2-3 mythics raids a week.

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Why would a mythic raider want to raid the same tier raid again and again and again, even if faceroll on a lower difficulty? What's the fun with that? Is that a good thing? WoW should give reasons to raiders to enjoy OTHER aspects of the game, not just raiding the same raid on all possible difficulties.

It does. With TF you can to worldquests, PVP and dungeons in addition to raids. Without it nothing of that would have any relevance.

[Osmeric]

They do have a cap. They just don't have a cap that you like, OP.

[Redblade]

Yes, lets get rid of the most loyal part of the playerbase that plays a big role in making sure random groups actually function by carrying them. Good plan.

Yes lets develop the game just for the 'majority community'...what could possibly go wrong.

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It does. With TF you can to worldquests, PVP and dungeons in addition to raids. Without it nothing of that would have any relevance.

It has little to no relevance when you're in mythic gear...

[Osmeric]

Yes lets develop the game just for the 'majority community'...what could possibly go wrong.

Well, we know what happens when you aim a MMO at a minority community. #WildStar

[Redblade]

Well, we know what happens when you aim a MMO at a minority community. #WildStar

How about we make a game that caters to both? Crazy idea I know but it might just work you know. There's way to many people in here that probably never set foot in mythic raids that seem to think they know how the game plays out for mythic raiders. They seem oblivious to the fact that once you clear most or all of the current mythic raid there isn't really any content for them. The TF system on the other hand provides an incentive for ("forces") them to do content that is below their skill level 'just in case' that item they need forges.

Adding a cap to the TF system removes that incentive, or as I suggested add better odds for TF based on difficulty and this problem goes away. For some reason this is unacceptable to some with a wide array of poorly constructed arguments that all boil down to the same old "I want the awesome gear without making an effort". My way doesn't take anything away from anyone yet it's still not acceptable for some odd reason.

[munkeyinorbit]

He's not asking if the reason why they introduced TF and WF was okay, he's asking if it should have cap.

I agree with him. WF - 5 ilvl increase, TF - 10 ilvl increase.
Whenever I see someone with 925 ilvl LFR gear I'm shaking my head.

why? does it displease you that someone got a buzz by getting a 925? How does it hurt you? Why exactly are you shaking your head? Is it because the player rocking a LFR 925 is somehow lesser to you?

[Tradu]

See - for every raiding guild I know that is now doing world first races the changes were great and enjoyed a lot : )

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They were not asking but it was still a great idea to keep older content relevant.

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Because the more content there is the better it is. I want to be able to do relevant stuff besides my 2-3 mythics raids a week.

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It does. With TF you can to worldquests, PVP and dungeons in addition to raids. Without it nothing of that would have any relevance.

No? Multiple have quit because of the changes not being good, the ones that still exist have also expressed that they dislike the systems.

So... it's a great idea even though the people you claim it was done for hate it?

LFR/N/H isn't "more content" for somebody who raids mythic. It's the same content they do already but on easymode. And either way, that "content" is there for you to do already, it doesn't need to reward power increases at the same kind of level as harder content does.

Except people did stuff like pet battles even before it gave AP, so clearly other types of content don't need to be massively overrewarding in order for people to do them. I mean fuck, people do raids from previous expansions for transmog, they don't get power increases from that and they do it anyway.

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Well, we know what happens when you aim a MMO at a minority community. #WildStar

Luckily you can do both, and WoW has done so in the past.

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why? does it displease you that someone got a buzz by getting a 925? How does it hurt you? Why exactly are you shaking your head? Is it because the player rocking a LFR 925 is somehow lesser to you?

Yes, they are lesser(in the game), because they did not earn that 925 by actually being good and doing hard content, they got handed it because they're lucky. That said, that's not even the main issue with WF/TF, the main issue is what it causes hardcore players to do, not that random clowns get way better gear than their achievements warrant.

[Neotokyo]

I think it should be able to go up one difficulty tier.. So LFR - Normal -Heroic - Mythic.

[Osmeric]

How about we make a game that caters to both?

Well, Blizzard has been trying that, but it's not entirely possible. For example, mechanisms that provide lower level players means to continue to progress run the risk of providing too much power increase potential for high end players.

In Legion, Blizzard has sent the signal that the tradeoff there is going to favor the more average players, not the convenience of the high end players. Sorry about that guys!

I know any hint that Blizzard may be souring on you as customers really gets your insecurity flowing, but you're going to have to man up and deal with it.

[Tradu]

Well, Blizzard has been trying that, but it's not entirely possible. For example, mechanisms that provide lower level players means to continue to progress run the risk of providing too much power increase potential for high end players.

In Legion, Blizzard has sent the signal that the tradeoff there is going to favor the more average players, not the convenience of the high end players. Sorry about that guys!

I know any hint that Blizzard may be souring on you as customers really gets your insecurity flowing, but you're going to have to man up and deal with it.

The thing is, the TF system also muddies the progression path for the more average players by randomly giving them gear that makes them stronger than the content they're "meant" to be doing, legendaries also lock them into 1 spec by virtue of having cool shit in 1 spec, disincentivizing them from playing the specs where they don't.

[Urstruly]

Honestly I wish wf was 5 Ilvls and titantitanforged 10. I'm a 10/10M raider who's been playing for a awhile. I miss the days of being able to have full BiS and competing on logs with people who have the same gear. Now it's more like who has the exact leggos for the fight. Who got a 925 socketed whispers. Just kind of skews the system.
As far as lfr heroes getting gear. Doesn't really matter. It's like when a guitar student goes and buys a Gibson Les Paul. Yea it's a nice guitar, but he has no clue what to do with it so why would it bother me?

[Osmeric]

The thing is, the TF system also muddies the progression path for the more average players by randomly giving them gear that makes them stronger than the content they're "meant" to be doing.

The TF system, and the various alternate progression mechanisms in general, are great for average players who don't sprint for BiS. Average players don't run out of things to do, and don't hit power plateaus. The point you are trying to make there is so flawed it isn't even wrong ("meant"? WTF?)

[Tradu]

The TF system, and the various alternate progression mechanisms in general, are great for average players who don't sprint for BiS. Average players don't run out of things to do, and don't hit power plateaus. The point you are trying to make there is so flawed it isn't even wrong ("meant"? WTF?)

Content appropriate for their skill/effort/interest level. As in, somebody who does WQs and randomly gets a few 880 items is suddenly much stronger relative to the WQs that are their main content. They're not going to use that gear to get into higher end content in most cases, so they just end up stomping the content that they're interested in, which makes it less interesting in itself(and means they're "done" faster)
And if they don't run out of things to do or hit power plateaus, why the hell do they need gear that randomly gains 80 ilevels?

[Mystikal]

There IS cap - 925. And LFR IS already lowest because of lowest base ilvl. And Mythic IS highest because of highest base ilvl.

This. It's stupefying how many people don't understand this.

[Osmeric]

Content appropriate for their skill/effort/interest level. As in, somebody who does WQs and randomly gets a few 880 items is suddenly much stronger relative to the WQs that are their main content. They're not going to use that gear to get into higher end content in most cases, so they just end up stomping the content that they're interested in, which makes it less interesting in itself(and means they're "done" faster)
And if they don't run out of things to do or hit power plateaus, why the hell do they need gear that randomly gains 80 ilevels?

I'm not sure they personally need gear, but Blizzard needs them to want gear, and to continue to enjoy getting gear. This is not difficult to understand.

The steady and prolonged gear progression for average players in this expansion has been a superior game experience for them compared to premature roadblocks in earlier expansions. The reward system has been much better engineered for prolonged engagement. Too bad this pissed in your hardcore Wheaties.

[Tradu]

I'm not sure they personally need gear, but Blizzard needs them to want gear, and to continue to enjoy getting gear. This is not difficult to understand.

The steady and prolonged gear progression for average players in this expansion has been a superior game experience for them compared to premature roadblocks in earlier expansions. The reward system has been much better engineered for prolonged engagement. Too bad this pissed in your hardcore Wheaties.

That could be accomplished without going to such an extreme level, though. Just keep scaling up WQ rewards over time(not just with patches) and have them roll up to maybe +10 ilevels. And there was a very good progression path in terms of gearing up already. Hit 110? Do WQs and normal dungeons until 810 ilevel, then replace normal with heroic dungeons until maybe 825-830 where you replace them with base mythics, after which there's LFR and M+(if they're interested in M+), titanforging was not needed(and it definitely didn't have to exist in raiding, especially the higher difficulties, because that's not where your average players who apparently need the system are found)