Resto in 7.2.5

[Deleted]

we lack so much utility we should bring some good throughput to the table.

What the hell am I reading, Jesus Christ.

[RestoSpirit]

What the hell am I reading, Jesus Christ.

Hey,

thank you for answering, but you should elaborate a little more on the topic instead of quoting something completly out of context.

Point out to me where druid has significant utility? We have some nice CC, which as I said is very good in m+, but most NPCs in Raids are not CC-able. The only real advantage is our mobility which as pointed out in this thread before is not often used in current encounters.

Cheers
RestoSpirit

[theburned]

The shoulders in best case scenarios (which are creating the edge cases causing everyone to rage about Druid HPS being too high) are adding like 10-12% extra healing. Swapping them with say Prydaz, belt, or Tearstone, probably cuts that down to 5-7%. Therefore, it's as much as a 5% nerf.

Similarly, the T19 2pc is worth about 3% and the T19 4pc can go up to 10-12% extra healing in best case scenarios (especially with shoulders). That's 13%-15% healing from T19. The T20 4pc is only worth about 3-4%, and the T20 2pc is worth a marginal amount. Therefore, we could lose as much as 10% throughput from the switch from T19 to T20. Yes, we may well end up still wearing T19 2pc to mitigate that ~3%, but keep in mind that we probably have to take an ilvl/INT hit to do that, so the relative gains will decrease.

My math may be focusing too much on the 95th percentile and the edge cases in terms of top logs, but yes, if those nerf percentages were overlaid on the current Nighthold aggregate rankings, we would be the 5th or 6th best healer. Keep in mind that we won't see that drop off immediately in 7.2.5, because we will still be using T19 4pc for at least the first few weeks, but our position will likely continue to slide backward, because I strongly suspect we have the worst set bonuses of any throughput healer.

where exactly are you pulling these numbers from? The legendary analyzer? If so I can tell you that its an overlap, which causes 4p procs triggered from shoulders to count as shoulder healing, which is fair, but this is not subtracted from the 4p healing, this leads to a gross overestimation.

This might be outdated information, but the numbers you are suggesting, looks similar to what it was back when I got this info.

[Pokas]

You have to be completely misinformed when you say that "druids have no utility". Druids have an INSANE toolkit, with an excelent Tank CD (arguably the very best in the game), an excelent Raid CD, a reasonably survivability (probably only worse than paladin's, when considering healers) and the, by far, best heal mobility in the game, which when you argue that is not used, just show how biased you are when defending your spec. Every single fight in Nighthold has mechanics which involve moving and, even when they are not long, at the end of the fight, they add up and, while druids can basically sustain most of their healing while on the move, all the other healers have to deal with relative bad mobility.
Druids' utility is probably only behind Shamans, which is basically the "utility healer" of the game, while still having the very best output of the game. It is not healthy for the game to have such a powerful spec.
I think that, when you look at druid in a vacuum, you forget about the specs that are fighting with it for a raid spot. If druid's utility is bad, what do you have to say about HPriests and Monks? Both of them have far worse utility kits than druid, while also having worse output. A lot of times in this post, the argument is "druids need to have better output to have a raid spot". This is the situation right now and, as it is, RDruids just exclude 2 specs of the game when you are looking to Min-Max
The nerfs to RDruids in 7.2.5 are very welcome and should probably improve the fight for third and fourth healing spots in a raid. Yeah, we have the problem with Shamans and HPaladins being mandatory for progression and I agree totally that it should be adressed, but adressing Druids is already a big step in bringing balance to the healing scene.

[Tiberria]

You have to be completely misinformed when you say that "druids have no utility". Druids have an INSANE toolkit, with an excelent Tank CD (arguably the very best in the game), an excelent Raid CD, a reasonably survivability (probably only worse than paladin's, when considering healers) and the, by far, best heal mobility in the game, which when you argue that is not used, just show how biased you are when defending your spec. Every single fight in Nighthold has mechanics which involve moving and, even when they are not long, at the end of the fight, they add up and, while druids can basically sustain most of their healing while on the move, all the other healers have to deal with relative bad mobility.
Druids' utility is probably only behind Shamans, which is basically the "utility healer" of the game, while still having the very best output of the game. It is not healthy for the game to have such a powerful spec.
I think that, when you look at druid in a vacuum, you forget about the specs that are fighting with it for a raid spot. If druid's utility is bad, what do you have to say about HPriests and Monks? Both of them have far worse utility kits than druid, while also having worse output. A lot of times in this post, the argument is "druids need to have better output to have a raid spot". This is the situation right now and, as it is, RDruids just exclude 2 specs of the game when you are looking to Min-Max
The nerfs to RDruids in 7.2.5 are very welcome and should probably improve the fight for third and fourth healing spots in a raid. Yeah, we have the problem with Shamans and HPaladins being mandatory for progression and I agree totally that it should be adressed, but adressing Druids is already a big step in bringing balance to the healing scene.

1. Every healer except Shaman (which have a 2nd raid CD) also have a tank CD. Even if Ironbark is better in a lot of situations, the other tank CDs are hardly unusable. This isn't utility; it's something every healer has as part of their base kit.
2. See point 1 for Tranq - if every healer brings a raid CD, it's not really utility over and above what you'd get from any healing spec.
3. Sure, the extra survivability from Guardian Affinity is nice. However, it's not like any competent Monk, Priest or Shaman should be dying to avoidable raid mechanics in the first place. We also don't have an immunity like Paladins do, so it's not like we can solo certain mechanics the way Rogues, Mages, etc. are able to - which would be bringing utility. This doesn't add utility over what any competent player playing any class would bring.
4. Sure - Druids have strong mobility. But, are you also going to call Paladin beacons/tank healing focus, Monk melee mechanic immunity, Shaman stacked healing and clutch healing mastery, and Holy Priests' strong spot healing/AoE burst with Holy Words utility too? If not, then no - you don't get to call Druid mobility utility. It's just a strength/niche of the spec, just like every other spec has their own niches. Alternately, the value of that mobility is severely counterbalanced by the fact that every meaningful cast we make takes 7-30 seconds to reach full fruition (a healing style that is typically not good at reacting to burst/preventing deaths), while most other healers have the bulk of their healing delivered in <2.5 second casts.

It's wonderful that the Druid nerfs make you happy, but I don't see what you think you gain by making effectively the 3rd best Mythic raiding healer go from being in a strong spot to being as garbage as HPriests/Mistweavers. It still does nothing to solve the underlying issue of mandatory healing specs that screws over all 3 specs, and you're fine with that. You just want to make everyone else as miserable and useless as yourself. It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Grow up.

[Pokas]

1. Every healer except Shaman (which have a 2nd raid CD) also have a tank CD. Even if Ironbark is better in a lot of situations, the other tank CDs are hardly unusable. This isn't utility; it's something every healer has as part of their base kit.
2. See point 1 for Tranq - if every healer brings a raid CD, it's not really utility over and above what you'd get from any healing spec.
3. Sure, the extra survivability from Guardian Affinity is nice. However, it's not like any competent Monk, Priest or Shaman should be dying to avoidable raid mechanics in the first place. We also don't have an immunity like Paladins do, so it's not like we can solo certain mechanics the way Rogues, Mages, etc. are able to - which would be bringing utility. This doesn't add utility over what any competent player playing any class would bring.
4. Sure - Druids have strong mobility. But, are you also going to call Paladin beacons/tank healing focus, Monk melee mechanic immunity, Shaman stacked healing and clutch healing mastery, and Holy Priests' strong spot healing/AoE burst with Holy Words utility too? If not, then no - you don't get to call Druid mobility utility. It's just a strength/niche of the spec, just like every other spec has their own niches. Alternately, the value of that mobility is severely counterbalanced by the fact that every meaningful cast we make takes 7-30 seconds to reach full fruition (a healing style that is typically not good at reacting to burst/preventing deaths), while most other healers have the bulk of their healing delivered in <2.5 second casts.

It's wonderful that the Druid nerfs make you happy, but I don't see what you think you gain by making effectively the 3rd best Mythic raiding healer go from being in a strong spot to being as garbage as HPriests/Mistweavers. It still does nothing to solve the underlying issue of mandatory healing specs that screws over all 3 specs, and you're fine with that. You just want to make everyone else as miserable and useless as yourself. It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Grow up.

1- So, basically, your argument is "Yeah, Ironbark is better than all the other tank CDs in the game, but all the healers, except Shaman, have one, so that's ok, right...right?". I dont think i have to clarify how nonsensical this is.
2- See point 1 for Tranq. Yeah, Shamans have betters CDs than Tranq (but that's basically what they bring to a raid) and Paladins also have a very strong raid CD. But let's compare Tranq to Divine Hymn and Revival. Divine Hymn is basically a Tranq which you have to be stationary to cast and, even with a perfect setup, hardly heals as much as Tranq. Revival has the benefit of being insta-cast (which is not necessarily a benefit) and dispelling as well, but the output is just mediocre.
3- You are literally neglecting survivability as a desirable ability. In a perfect world, nobody messes mechanics, but that's not how it happens in every single level of play. And it's not like there is only avoidable damage. Naturally taking less damage and, consequently, being able to focus more on your healing is not a thing to just pass on.
4- Look at this: all the others "niches" you called in the other specs (except monk, but you probably couldnt find a thing that monks are good at) are related to their healing profile: Tank healing, stacked/cluth healing, spot/AoE burst healing. These are the niches of these specs. Druid's niche is HoT healing aka keeping people's life stable. No other healer has this ability. Mobility is just a nice additional that druids get. It just makes playing the spec easier and overall better

The druid nerfs dont make me happy, I just think that they bring balance to the game. HPriests are not garbage, they are just overshadowed by how powerful druids are in this tier. Mistweavers have more problems, but these are being (or at least tried to be) adressed in 7.2.5. And I was clear in my statement "we have the problem with Shamans and HPaladins being mandatory for progression and I agree totally that it should be adressed", so I am not ignoring it, but that's not what I was here to discuss.

Also, can you please be civil in the discussion? Unlike many others here, I am trying to argue rationally on my thoughts about RDruids, being called "miserable and useless" is not exactly kind. Maybe I am not the one that needs to grow up.

[RestoSpirit]

Hey,

I think some of the problems we have with paladins and shaman can be adressed by different encounter design (which ToS actually tries). We got 9/10 mythic nighthold with rdruid, shaman, hpriest and monk, only to find guldan would be really hard without a paladin. So we decided to gear one and ta-da, our hpally got mythic 10/10 after being 110 for 6 days! (guldan log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...5&type=healing you can do the rest of the research yourself)

That's just some stupid encounter design, it got WAY easier with a hpally, because he can adress the really critical point in P2 with ease. That's to some extend the class design, but for the most part (which is shown by the other 8-9 bosses) it's about encounter design. Guldan's soaking and dot mechanic in P2 is perfectly covered by the pally or two restodruids.

Same goes for shaman but on a different level. When you try to progress bosses really early shaman-mastery kicks in for crazy amounts of healing. Added on this very progressfriendly design he has the most healing CDs best stacked healing and a variety of talents for different situations. Take mythic- krosus for example. I guess 90% of the guilds who killed krosus in february have had a shaman, since SLT covers the critical point very well. Hell we were somewhat forced to use a shaman till 7.2, it was just the better and safer option altough he wouldnt need gear at this point. Sure different mechanics keep things nice and fresh, but one spell or one talent (beacon) should not decide wether or not you make the encounter (needing an extra 150 pulls for a lucky try is not making the encounter in my book).

DISCLAIMER (since people here sometimes don't get the word "opinion"): MY opinion is based on what I have seen and expierenced in the last raidtier. There is nothing to be angry about it's just a view on the matter from a different angle than yours. I don't write this to keep you from telling me YOUR opinion, I just want to make sure everyone understands that im not after them, I just try to spark a vibrant discussion.

So would do you think? Should we keep rdruid, shaman and pally as they are, buff priests and monks and just change the encounter design?

Cheers
RestoSpirit

[fallenangel-succ]

What about that log tells us that a paladin is required? I hardly consider them mandatory for raiding, and certainly not for Guldan. Do you know what class have really good single target healing? Resto druid.
I think the nerfs to druids are a bit heavy handed, but we needed to be taken down a peg or 2. It's undeniable, and has nothing to do with the so-called mandatory healing specs but with the others.

[RestoSpirit]

What about that log tells us that a paladin is required? I hardly consider them mandatory for raiding, and certainly not for Guldan. Do you know what class have really good single target healing? Resto druid.
I think the nerfs to druids are a bit heavy handed, but we needed to be taken down a peg or 2. It's undeniable, and has nothing to do with the so-called mandatory healing specs but with the others.

Hey,

Seems you missed something in my post, I clearly stated that pally and RESTODRUID are very well suited for guldan. My point was that switching the hpriest made this fight way easier and we killed him shortly after we swapped to a pally with little gear (at least way less gear than his 917 hpriest and less traits). He had about half the HPS of this priest but due to classdesign surpassed him in utility for this fight.

Cheers
RestoSpirit

[limis]

go post on official forums. no1 from Blizz read here...

[fallenangel-succ]

As I said, I don't think a paladin is needed at all. What part did you struggle with that a paladin helped fix?

[Deleted]

Technically, Roots, Mass Roots, Typhoon are not resto druid specific - and can be brought by any guardian/feral/boomkin Same goes for innervate with boomkin (especially since lets face it - most restos use their own innervate). Cyclone doesn't exist in pve, so not sure why that's there. Bash is not available, unless you meant Mighty Bash talent, which again goes back to not being resto specific.

Its the same argument Holy paladins use when you claim their hands and freedom are utility (they say it doesn't count because any ret or prot can bring them) Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

So actually utility is ironbark, moving tranq (which is only a bonus over priests - as AM, HTT, and revival are instant anyway), high mobility (including blink) and high hps while being mobile. That's a more realistic list of perks.

So because other specs of a class have the same utility, it doesn't count as utility lol? Please explain to me what happens when a bear or feral go out of form to cast roots, I'll wait.

Also, I forgot Vortex.

Not sure why you waste your time arguing with mmo champ posters, there are really only guide followers on here that won't understand what you're saying.

The guy actually said cyclone.

Came out of a conversation about PvP in another thread, calm down son :^)

[tonydanza]

Quit worrying about what other healers are doing or can and cant do.
Nobody is "required"
People seem to forget what the word required actually means.

And stop arguing with tiberria. You cannot win any argument with a brickwall.

All of his posts since mop/wod when he was a shaman were, even then, essentially the same arguments and discussion or downplaying or complaining one thing or another. Never have i seen one thread/post where he has conceeded anything at all.
@Tiberria, Sorry if this comes off as an attack on you, it's not meant to be. It's just tiring reading basically the same drivel for years.

[Deleted]

paladins and shamans can do cool things i cant so i need to put out more hps, have more survivability, be more mobile and have more cool and neat things than priests and monks ;;;;;; ((((((((

[axxey]

Hey,

Seems you missed something in my post, I clearly stated that pally and RESTODRUID are very well suited for guldan. My point was that switching the hpriest made this fight way easier and we killed him shortly after we swapped to a pally with little gear (at least way less gear than his 917 hpriest and less traits). He had about half the HPS of this priest but due to classdesign surpassed him in utility for this fight.

Cheers
RestoSpirit

Or you could have just killed it with his priest on 22nd of may when the fight suddenly got easier and most of your raid's concordance kicked in.

[roi]

Why do most of you consider the shoulders to be garbage in 7.2.5? How often do you actually get more than 9 seconds rejuv extensions? I'd expect to nearly never see the full 15 seconds.

[Purpleisbetter]

Ok, let me put it in a very simplistic way why resto druids are going to be f* up hard:

I do 100 over 30 seconds with a spell, 300 over 7 seconds with another spell, 150 over 15 seconds with another.

A holy priests does 100 with a spell with sub 2 second cast, 300 with an instant cast, and another 150 with 1.5 second cast.

Is perfectly balanced, is it not? Who do you pick?

I take the priest. Every fucking time.

Or, because i know some people here are quite in denial, let's make it, dunno a s.priest against a mage (since ToS is yet again ST all day everyday):

Priest does 100 dmg over 15 seconds, 150 over 10 and 200 with an instant cast.

Mage does 100 dmg with an instant, 150 with 1.5 sec cast and another 200 with another instant.

Who do you pick? The Mage. Every time.

Moral: if all you realistically bring is throughput and yours is OVER TIME, the output needs to be a least slightly more or your in fight numbers are going to be depressingly low. Not because you suck, but your HoT simply do not have "enough time".

[Floopa]

guess ironbark, mobility (tranq/rejuv spam mobility), insane survivability counts for nothing on progress

xd

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Why are healers so salty about this stuff. It's why I got a Druid, Shaman, Pally, and Priest to keep my bases covered. This is what happens like every tier.

[Deleted]

I think its dangerous to nerf druids any further until we see the impact of losing 4P bonus and shoulder synergy along with the nerf to shoulders AND cultivation.

Unless they already tested that, which i doubt because PTR lacks the massive pool of data that live gives to give a clear picture.