The Arena Mentality in WoW

[Archonite]

I dont understand how you can argue that 1v1 is PvP, 40v40 is PvP yet somehow things in between arent. Your tone is also very black and white, a ton of anecdotes that you state as facts, you dont seem to be open for any opinions and you make a lot of assumptions about anyone who disagrees with you. No matter how right you (think you) are, your way of typing and arguing is very aggresive and dishonest at times.

A few specific points: "Duels were an indicator of whether one was better than the other" and "But what about the Rogues who oneshotted with ambu- yes, Vanilla was a stupid time for World PvP but that's why we brought more people to gank them" directly contradict eachother. You admit to rogues being able to oneshot people with ambush, and yet still argue duels before WOTLK were an indicator of skill. You also say that duels dont count as an indicator of ones skill after WOTLK, and somehow disagree with gladiators disregarding them as meaningless?

I wont go into detail for every single flaw in your arguments, though im curious about the warrior in the video you linked. He has less health than you, and you say he outgears you by an entire season. Is there something like stamina gems/trinkets youre using, or how does less health mean better gear? I also assume since you dont have the belf silence on your bars, the heal you get is the draenei racial or is there something else with the same icon?

[Ssateneth]

"the game was balanced around ... World PvP"

stopped reading there. blues states world pvp is inherently NOT balanced.

[Deleted]

Class balance is PART of it, not all of it. Pruning wasn't done for balance, it was done to dumb down the game. When the classes get pruned to hell, offensive options and counter options get reduced, options create variable gameplay, variable gameplay is fun. Without variable gameplay, there is no fun.

WotLK was balanced around 3v3 for PvP, but it was still fun everywhere else because the gameplay had variety, these things are not mutually exclusive.

I added more to that post if you didn't see it already because I was editing it, if you already read it then I don't know why you won't address those other parts either.

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"the game was balanced around ... World PvP"

stopped reading there. blues states world pvp is inherently NOT balanced.

Stopped reading when you said "blues states".

Nobody takes blues seriously.

Try again.

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PvP is the minigame.

Arena is just a flavor.

Haha damn, got'emmm.

[Deleted]

Makes thread about mentality of pvpers. Comes across as super elitist. Maybe it's just 'Merica.

In Europe, most high rated people I've come across has been really friendly while the 1800-2000 bracket is really full of rude and nasty people.

If anything, being high rated shows 2 things.
1. You're social and can make a team work
2. You know the game, classes weaknesses and strenghts

You don't really need to be super skilled, but people who are legit high rated clearly have put in a lot of effort to reach that. The only time I broke into the 2400-2600 bracket was with 2 friends. It would be absolutely impossible for me to do that with pugs as clearly as a day and night most healers left after 1 loss. THAT'S the main problem of arena at the moment. Nobody is willing to put in the time to build synergy. Learn from losses, damnit

This has resulted in me rather playing Overwatch lately, because I don't like this seasons elite gear, the old red enchant is gone, and there's no point unless my irl friends wants to play. I'm NOT goign to go through 10 healers a day just to play 3v3.

[Schattenlied]

I added more to that post if you didn't see it already because I was editing it, if you already read it then I don't know why you won't address those other parts either.

that post last edited at 3:50(my time), 3 minutes after my post at 3:47.

Don't get snarky about "why didn't you address XYZ in this post" when you said it AFTER my post.

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So, of course, everything got all oneshotty, more burst, more spells being put into a single macro for that swofty wun shot macro that we're all so familiar with. And from there, they just got so carried away with making everything faster and faster, and less tedious to endure that we've reached a critical point in Legion where it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between a good player and a bad player because they almost end up oneshotting each other.

That's your issue, and it's up to Blizzard to fix it.

and that is completely false, the game was far, far more bursty back in Wrath than it is now... Did you even actually play the game back then?

[Deleted]

I dont understand how you can argue that 1v1 is PvP, 40v40 is PvP yet somehow things in between arent. Your tone is also very black and white, a ton of anecdotes that you state as facts, you dont seem to be open for any opinions and you make a lot of assumptions about anyone who disagrees with you. No matter how right you (think you) are, your way of typing and arguing is very aggresive and dishonest at times.

A few specific points: "Duels were an indicator of whether one was better than the other" and "But what about the Rogues who oneshotted with ambu- yes, Vanilla was a stupid time for World PvP but that's why we brought more people to gank them" directly contradict eachother. You admit to rogues being able to oneshot people with ambush, and yet still argue duels before WOTLK were an indicator of skill. You also say that duels dont count as an indicator of ones skill after WOTLK, and somehow disagree with gladiators disregarding them as meaningless?

I wont go into detail for every single flaw in your arguments, though im curious about the warrior in the video you linked. He has less health than you, and you say he outgears you by an entire season. Is there something like stamina gems/trinkets youre using, or how does less health mean better gear? I also assume since you dont have the belf silence on your bars, the heal you get is the draenei racial or is there something else with the same icon?

When I was referring to duels, I meant the TBC/WOTLK eras and I figured that I got my point across when I said Vanilla was a stupid time for WPvP but apparently not so. And during the time in TBC/WOTLK Glads/R1s disregarded duels as meaningless and that mentality caught on quickly because they were the hottest new thing in town. So I don't disagree that duels mean nothing post WOTLK and I don't disagree that duels were stupid in Vanilla.

TBC/WOTLK were the finest periods in WoW's history for PvP alone. That's what I was talking in the OP and if people didn't understand that then I'm sorry, I'm writing it here now.

The Warrior was using PvE gear pieces like trinkets and sacrificed some resi gems for ARP gems, I simply used some stamina gems with more resilience gems in order to tank his stupidly OP damage and used a different technique to beat him due to how OP his gear was compared to mine.

But in WOTLK, skill>gear. You could be in full Wrathful with the T2 weapon, you've got the HC DBW trinket and the HC Scales trinket and you would still get your ass handed to you by a decent player who knew how to 1v1 well, I want to say "duelist" but since that title got taken by arenas... I don't know what else to use instead.

It was pure skill that got you the win in duels, if you knew your stuff and if you could predict your opponent's moves then you would certainly be able to pull it off. Dueling well geared players with bad gear was more like a duel between the Mountain and Oberyn, you had to be very careful or you'd die painfully. That's what I'd say 3.3.5 WOTLK PvP was like in duels and WPvP in general. But if you were equal in gear then trust me, the guy would lose and you'd barely lose any health due to the fact that you outplayed him before he could even use his first three moves.

Also, the reason why I appear as a blood elf is because I'm using the Orb of Sin'dorei, my character was a Draenei female.

More health didn't always mean better gear because of the fact that you could stamina stack repeatedly in order to get your desired amount of health, back then it was more about the stats on your gear that allowed you to perform better and allowed you have a higher amount of resilience in order to mitigate damage.

Relentless gear was at around 251 and the weapon was around 245, the T2 version was 258 I believe. Wrathful Gladiator gear was at 264 item level and the Wrathful weapon was 264 as well, the T2 version was 277, and on that server you could use the 277 version.

So I was vastly outgeared in both resi + damage, so I had to use resi gems to reduce damage taken and use a specific tactic involving kiting him and slowly bringing him down by outplaying his moves made.

Just an edit, I used more PvP gear than PvE, which is what also added to the bigger health pool making it higher than my opponent's health pool.

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that post last edited at 3:50(my time), 3 minutes after my post at 3:47.

Don't get snarky about "why didn't you address XYZ in this post" when you said it AFTER my post.

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and that is completely false, the game was far, far more bursty back in Wrath than it is now... Did you even actually play the game back then?

I assumed you were ignoring certain parts of my posts, but I'd still like you to address them anyway, thank you.

Also for your "bursty back in Wrath" nonsense lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5V5a_p0mqI

I'm the Warrior in this video, gg.

Also I played 6 years in 3.3.5 WOTLK on that private server so I think I'm more than qualified on this matter.

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Makes thread about mentality of pvpers. Comes across as super elitist. Maybe it's just 'Merica.

In Europe, most high rated people I've come across has been really friendly while the 1800-2000 bracket is really full of rude and nasty people.

If anything, being high rated shows 2 things.
1. You're social and can make a team work
2. You know the game, classes weaknesses and strenghts

You don't really need to be super skilled, but people who are legit high rated clearly have put in a lot of effort to reach that. The only time I broke into the 2400-2600 bracket was with 2 friends. It would be absolutely impossible for me to do that with pugs as clearly as a day and night most healers left after 1 loss. THAT'S the main problem of arena at the moment. Nobody is willing to put in the time to build synergy. Learn from losses, damnit

This has resulted in me rather playing Overwatch lately, because I don't like this seasons elite gear, the old red enchant is gone, and there's no point unless my irl friends wants to play. I'm NOT goign to go through 10 healers a day just to play 3v3.

That's fantastic that you enjoy playing that minigame but what I want to stamp out is the whole mentality that you're bad if you don't do arenas or if you've got low rating because it's a team based game mode. It doesn't represent individual skill.

That's my gripe with arenas.

That's the main thing about it, the fact that it's the only thing in PvP that you can do and players can't show that they're skilled in anything else, the option isn't there for them.

It's unfair and it doesn't make players want to keep on playing if that's the case.

[Schattenlied]

I assumed you were ignoring certain parts of my posts, but I'd still like you to address them anyway, thank you.

Also for your "bursty back in Wrath" nonsense lol... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5V5a_p0mqI

I'm the Warrior in this video, gg.

Also I played 6 years in 3.3.5 WOTLK on that private server so I think I'm more than qualified on this matter.

Yeah, because we all know private servers are flawless.

I can find any number of videos on youtube of people killing and being killed much faster than that. So again I ask you, did you actually play back then, or is your only experience private servers?

[Stormspellz]

But in WOTLK, skill>gear. You could be in full Wrathful with the T2 weapon, you've got the HC DBW trinket and the HC Scales trinket and you would still get your ass handed to you by a decent player who knew how to 1v1 well, I want to say "duelist" but since that title got taken by arenas... I don't know what else to use instead.

It was pure skill that got you the win in duels

this is simply wrong, specifically early in wotlk, hello dks?!?! Even s8 in equal gear some specs hard countered others 1v1, and of course many specs where just simply useless.

Yes mechanically the game was more in depth but that had zero to do with pvp itself, it was simply pre prune everything down to the ground design to make the game simplier for the dragonslayers.

[Deleted]

Class balance is PART of it, not all of it. Pruning wasn't done for balance, it was done to dumb down the game. When the classes get pruned to hell, offensive options and counter options get reduced, options create variable gameplay, variable gameplay is fun. Without variable gameplay, there is no fun.

WotLK was balanced around 3v3 for PvP, but it was still fun everywhere else because the gameplay had variety, these things are not mutually exclusive.

You forget that they called it balancing, not us, Blizzard decided that it was balancing. So I'm just going to refer it as balancing.

You're also still assuming that the entire expansion was balanced around 3v3 when it was balanced around PvE AKA World PvP, like I said before. 3v3 balancing just came later and really didn't have that much of an impact because it was all already done in the talents, abilities and glyphs.

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Yeah, because we all know private servers are flawless.

I can find any number of videos on youtube of people killing and being killed much faster than that. So again I ask you, did you actually play back then, or is your only experience private servers?

I've already told you that I've played 12 years of WoW, I've played since Vanilla retail, TBC and at the end of WOTLK I quit to go play on a private server because I couldn't stand Cata.

AT was officially Blizz-like compared to retail and it only had PvP on there, no PvE at all existed on it.

You found of videos of morons who got shadowmourne and got 13k crits. That's what you found.

On AT we had no OP legendary items available, it was all maximum 264 gear and then later on 277 gear and heroic trinkets were added into the game which made it a little more bursty, but no legendaries were allowed there.

So no, I'm going to ask you if YOU even played the game, I've played 6 years of 3.3.5 WOTLK, I know everything there is to know about it, I can tell you exactly how a Mage is going to play against me 1v1 if you asked me to, I can predict everybody's moves 5 moves before they've even made them because I've played 3.3.5 WOTLK for so fucking long that it's like muscle memory to me.

I'm playing a Warrior, I duel a Mage, I charge, he blinks, I use intercept, he trinkets it and frost novas + deep freezes, he fake casts his frostbolts hoping I'm stupid enough to waste my trinket on it so he casts a frostbolt + an ice lance into it, I charge again and hamstring, mortal strike, rend up and overpowers, he'll cone of frost me and get me frozen in place again, I might decide to go YOLO and reckstorm and he'll pop iceblock, save shattering throw for his second iceblock, he'll frost nova me again and deep freeze me again, he might decide to spam frostbolts if he's forgotten that I haven't used trinket yet and that's his mistake because I'll trinket it and reflect his 4k - 5k frost novas amplified from his deep freeze on me and he'll use frost ward to absorb it, if he doesn't then his ice barrier breaks and if I haven't used bladestorm yet then I get a charge on him, he blinks and I intercept + he uses iceblock for fear of my bladestorm, shattering throw and he's stuck here because blink is on CD, I reckstorm and he's dead.

You've got nowhere near the experience I do in WOTLK, so honestly, can you tell me what you're talking about here?

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this is simply wrong, specifically early in wotlk, hello dks?!?! Even s8 in equal gear some specs hard countered others 1v1, and of course many specs where just simply useless.

Yes mechanically the game was more in depth but that had zero to do with pvp itself, it was simply pre prune everything down to the ground design to make the game simplier for the dragonslayers.

Simply not true, watch my PvP video, I absolutely demolished a DK that was supposed to be my counter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5V5a_p0mqI

And all specs had viability in duels and any other aspects of PvP even if it meant they needed to go the extra mile at surviving and pulling off victories.

[Schattenlied]

You forget that they called it balancing, not us, Blizzard decided that it was balancing. So I'm just going to refer it as balancing.

no, they didn't call it balancing, they shought they were removing redundant spells that "didn't need to exist", they never called it balancing, they called it pruning.

it was balanced around PvE AKA World PvP

In what fucked up world does PvE = WPvP? In no one's mind but yours is PvE "also known as" World PvP.

You found of videos of morons who got shadowmourne and got 13k crits. That's what you found.

No, I found people in wrathful gear with wrathful weapons fighting people in wrathful gear with wrathful weapons.


But thanks for showing me how hilariously immature and childishly cocky you are.

[Stormspellz]

Simply not true, watch my PvP video, I absolutely demolished a DK that was supposed to be my counter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5V5a_p0mqI

And all specs had viability in duels and any other aspects of PvP even if it meant they needed to go the extra mile at surviving and pulling off victories.

No it was true, just cause you beat someone (prob someone who never played dk) on your private server doesn't change the fact.

[Deleted]

no, they didn't call it balancing, they shought they were removing redundant spells that "didn't need to exist", they never called it balancing, they called it pruning.


In what fucked up world does PvE = WPvP?





No, I found people in wrathful gear with wrathful weapons fighting people in wrathful gear with wrathful weapons.


But thanks for showing me how hilariously immature and childishly cocky you are.

No you didn't and now I know you've never actually played WOTLK, the maximum you could do to another WF geared player was 4k or 5k, and that was with full burst CDs.

You should stop talking about WOTLK, you're out of your depth here, try something else.

Also...

In what fucked up world does PvE = WPvP?

I can't believe you even had to ask lol.

Also they called it balancing and they claimed that the game was getting better, they did this so they could hide from the fact that they wanted to dumb down the game, it was sarcasm but since you couldn't detect that, I had to spoil my own creative joke.

Seriously, in what world was WOTLK bursty lmao, if anything people were afraid to burst because they would either reflect it into themselves or it'd end up getting absorbed by wards and resistance trinkets.

You're a moron and an autist that needs help.

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No it was true, just cause you beat someone (prob someone who never played dk) on your private server doesn't change the fact.

I dueled DKs on retail, even back in 3.3.3 when they were hilariously OP, I could still beat them because I knew how to play Warriors, the reason why everybody feels like S5 DKs were insanely OP was because they didn't know how to play.

You're either seriously uninformed or you never actually played WOTLK.

[Schattenlied]

No you didn't and now I know you've never actually played WOTLK, the maximum you could do to another WF geared player was 4k or 5k, and that was with full burst CDs.

You should stop talking about WOTLK, you're out of your depth here, try something else.

maybe you should hop on youtube and do some actual research, clearly your memory needs a refresher.

Also they called it balancing

They never claimed the pruning was done for balance, not once.

Seriously, in what world was WOTLK bursty lmao

the real one.

if anything people were afraid to burst because they would either reflect it into themselves or it'd end up getting absorbed by wards and resistance trinkets.

The only people who were afraid of that are people that don't know how to track CDs.

You're a moron and an autist that needs help.

Somebody is ready for a forum infraction!

[kneehidude]

PvP in WoW has always been a minigame. PvE is and has always been the main focus of development

[Deleted]

maybe you should hop on youtube and do some actual research.


They never claimed the pruning was done for balance, not once.

the real one.


People that don't know how to track CDs.



Somebody is ready for a forum infraction!

You mean to tell me that... the expansion that I've been playing for 6 years including retail WoW... was actually in fact BURSTY??!?!?!... holy fuck, guess I missed the memo big time huh?

You have absolutely no idea what WOTLK PvP was like do you, hilarious.

Track CDs? You mean actually be smart at the game? Yeah, they ended up fake casting each other hoping to get off a silence or an interrupt, again, you prove that you've never played WOTLK.

You've never played WOTLK, you got all your information from watching random YouTube videos of players wielding shadowmourne like Klinda and you base that off as real WOTLK PvP.

Furthermore you consistently screw up every single time you try to tell me a "fact" about WOTLK and end up making yourself look like a moron, you probably can't even comprehend the fact that people conserved CDs a lot and that they never really bursted unless they absolutely knew that the other guy had no CDs because it would blow up in their faces badly.

Also... somebody is salty, and it ain't me!

Are you ready to let go of the fact that you can't win here when it comes to knowledge about 3.3.5 WOTLK? Or is your urge to be right too much for you?

[Schattenlied]

PvE is and has always been the main focus of development

That doesn't mean PvP should be left to rot...

PvP in WoW has always been a minigame

Blizzard holds arena tournaments regularly, that isn't something they would do for a "minigame".

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you have no idea what WOTLK PvP was like, do you. Hilarious.

pot, kettle, you regularly demonstrate that you don't.

Track CDs? You mean actually be smart at the game?

I know, right? Outlandish concept.

Yeah, they ended up fake casting each other hoping to get off a silence or an interrupt, again, you prove that you've never played WOTLK.

Because everyone played a caster, right? Oh wait.

You've never played WOTLK

I've got plenty of achievements to prove it, bub.

you got all your information from watching random YouTube videos of players wielding shadowmourne

What part of wrathful weapons didn't you understand? Is English your third language? It's ok if it is, just say so, so I know going forward.

Furthermore you consistently screw up every single time you try to tell me a "fact" about WOTLK and end up making yourself look like a moron

Not once has that happened.

making yourself look like a moron

Man you are really fishing for that infraction, ain't ya?

you probably can't even comprehend the fact that people conserved CDs a lot and that they never really bursted unless they absolutely knew that the other guy had no CDs because it would blow up in their faces badly.

So... the exact same thing they do now? Who knew people used efficient tactics, amazing!

[Axaion]

duels are also dumb in legion due to blizzard doing dumb things with pvp tuning and not adding it to duels, or world pvp for that matter.

[Appelgren]

Nobody takes me seriously.

Fixed that for everyone...

[Deleted]

That doesn't mean PvP should be left to rot...


Blizzard holds arena tournaments regularly, that isn't something they would do for a "minigame".

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pot, kettle, you regularly demonstrate that you don't.
I know, right? Outlandish concept.

Because everyone played a caster, right? Oh wait.
I've got plenty of achievements to prove it, bub.


What part of wrathful weapons didn't you understand? Is English your third language? It's ok if it is, just say so, so I know going forward.

Not once has that happened.


Man you are really fishing for that infraction, ain't ya?




So... the exact same thing they do now?

Are you actually serious lol, you really have no idea what you're talking about do you?

If they were using Wrathful weapons then it was being dealt to players in full PvE gear with 0 resilience, so I don't know what you'd expect to achieve from PvPing in full PvE gear with no resi gems.

I showed you a PvP video of what actually happens when two melee players are fighting each other and your description of what it should be like doesn't match up with what we're seeing in it.

And you just made a fool out of yourself again, just now by responding with this kneejerk reaction.

And it's not the same exact thing they do now because if you haven't noticed, Mages are oneshotting with a single glacial spike, Paladins are killing people in 2 or 3 templar verdicts, BM are instagibbing players with pets behind LOS.

It doesn't matter what achievements you earned if you did play WOTLK because from what you're telling me, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, just stop.

Just stop, seriously, none of what you're telling me has any resemblance to reality as to what WOTLK PvP was like.

And look at how you're getting, you're getting all heated up and angry because you're not getting what you want, you always gotta have the last word don't you? You want to win this argument and because of that you're desperately trying hard here.

You're insulting me, you're using childish retorts like

I know, right? Outlandish concept.

In response to something where I made it painfully obvious that everybody did that by default and it didn't have any benefit because of how risky it was to waste a burst without securing your own ass first.

Just accept the fact that you're not winning this one and stop lmao.

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Fixed that for everyone...

You mean R1s and Glads? Yeah I agree man

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duels are also dumb in legion due to blizzard doing dumb things with pvp tuning and not adding it to duels, or world pvp for that matter.

Not once did I mention anything about Legion being a good and balanced expansion where PvP is in a good state.

Where are you getting this from?

[Henako]

Your experience is one of a kind, in WOD 5 million players disagreed with you and unsubscribed because of the terrible state of PvP and WoW in general.

You sound like a nutjob. You keep speaking in these broad, absolute terms that just... aren't rooted in reality.