No Vengeance nerf in the hotfixes?? Are they kidding?

[Aggrophobic]

I am saying that against people of equal skill, a tank should never beat a dps on damage.

Apparantly you're not bright enough to realise that if they're doing 800k now, they'll be doing 800k+ in ToS, while we'll be doing 1.2mil~

It's not about the fact they're doing high dmg on farm, it's the fact they CAN do this damage, and will continue to do so, or do you think dmg goes down when a new raid comes out?

You make 0 sense.

800k damage on a boss like Skorpyron nothing though.
Again, their damage might be too high but you said "What does this have to do with anything, it's a tank" when people pointed out that he played much, much better than his guild mates. He is simply a better player.

Be maybe I'm just not "bright enough" to understand when you say one thing but mean something else, entirely.
Maybe you're one some next level of logic that we normal people can't understand.

[chooi]

The only thing to say here is that you have an awesome DH tank and he deserves a better group

^ This.

/thread

[Emerald Archer]

800k damage on a boss like Skorpyron nothing though.
Again, their damage might be too high but you said "What does this have to do with anything, it's a tank" when people pointed out that he played much, much better than his guild mates. He is simply a better player.

Be maybe I'm just not "bright enough" to understand when you say one thing but mean something else, entirely.
Maybe you're one some next level of logic that we normal people can't understand.

Why tf are you talking about skorp, it's 800k on PURE ST.

[Deleted]

They will probably get tuned before mythic comes out, DH tanks are doing pretty insane damage, can agree with that.

[Deleted]

Maybe look at his ilvl, percentage and items he's using and then compare them to the rest of the team?
And he's ignoring all the defensive abilities for the sake of DPS.

[Aggrophobic]

Why tf are you talking about skorp, it's 800k on PURE ST.

Whats your point? There are druinds on Chromatic that do over a million.
800k monks on Star bro.

How about calming down a bit, eh?

[Deleted]

Y'all keep saying that the guy is better than the whole raid combined and stuff, but people, TANK pulling 797k dps on KROSUS?! In a mere 914 gear? If you call that even remotely normal, you might belong to a mental asylum.

[Emerald Archer]

Whats your point? There are druinds on Chromatic that do over a million.
800k monks on Star bro.

How about calming down a bit, eh?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...95&class=Tanks

[Tojara]

Are people really dense? It doesn't really matter if he's relatively an "ALLSTAR" compared to the shit that he's raiding with. Nobody cares that maybe a great tank beats low performers from time to time, what's an issue is the actual balancing. All it does is highlight an issue to which one merely looks at WCL for further proof.

Not saying it's an accurate comparison, but I wouldn't call people who parse in the blues or low/high purple percentiles bad at the game. They are at the least average or above average, and in many cases a vengeance DH in the top 10% would actually outperform some classes in the game currently.

I'm a champion of tanks doing DPS because it actually shows you who is a better tank, and clearly posters earlier in the thread saying tank DPS doesn't matter, or you shouldn't gauge tank effectiveness on DPS are fucking retarded, but whatever.

You have tank DHs on bosses like Trilliax/Krosus/Augur doing 800k on mostly pure ST, with several of them eclipsing the 900k mark. It's fine if one tank does more damage than other tanks, but when you have other tanks hovering around the 650k range with DHs doing like 30-40% more damage, you start to run into balancing issues.

I don't think people realize that this has fairly negative consequences for the game from a balancing perspective beyond just who does the best tank DPS. Back in MoP with vengeance tanks did the most DPS in the game, but you were still limited by how many tanks you could bring because without vengeance tanks didn't really do much DPS. In this era, you start to run into problems if you have a tank doing DPS levels of DPS. Why? Because DPS timers are strict and that would certainly influence the tank meta. Beyond that (which is IMO a more pressing issue), you also have a number of encounters where having more than two tanks would be really nice, but because of DPS issues you can't really afford to do that. If you have one tank doing this much DPS, what's stopping guilds from 3 or 4 tanking encounters, trivializing mechanics without actually losing DPS? Furthermore, tanks like DHs are pretty self-sufficient, so adding a tank that trivializes tank mechanics and doesn't require healing also potentially allows you to drop more healers.

The issue with DHs is they were really unpopular and they buffed them way too much in the wrong way. I actually don't know how good they are defensively, although they most certainly have to be better than what they were. Without explaining the intricacies of the class because most people aren't going to understand.. imagine you have an ability that is pretty much going to occupy 1-4 on your bars, is supported by several traits and set bonuses and is something you press often because it's been shown to be an important part of your class. Now take that ability off your bars completely and don't bother with set bonuses because all the current set bonuses revolve around that ability, meaning that you just go for the best itemized pieces. That's essentially how Vengeance DH operates right now. Their set bonus from NH is absolutely useless, and several traits effectively do nothing.

It's really only the tip of iceberg because a lot of Vengeance DHs are probably retarded and didn't realize this was possible. Really good DHs prior to the patch were using fracture as much as they could and still did good DPS BTW. With the buffs to spirit bomb and mechanical changes to souls, it was pretty obvious to these players how good fracture and spirit bomb were going to be in 7.2.5 along with some pretty hefty flat damage buffs to the class (all of this can be seen in logs right now). If the bad DHs didn't catch on this week, they certainly will soon and you're going to see DHs all over the place in logs in addition to becoming incredibly popular.

I couldn't even begin to speculate as to what they are going to beyond numbers (it's pretty obvious to me they will "NUKE" spirit bomb tuning by a lot). Either soul cleave is too bad, or fracture is too good. Fracture from a conception stand point was likely meant to be something you use every once and awhile, but now that excess souls get given to you (which was a sorely needed change) it just outright replaces it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

What does this have to do with anything, it's a tank, it shouldn't be doing that much dmg. Who cares how it compares to his other raiders, look at the raw numbers.

To be fair other tanks have been doing that much damage all expansion.

[Deleted]

Y'all keep saying that the guy is better than the whole raid combined and stuff, but people, TANK pulling 797k dps on KROSUS?! In a mere 914 gear? If you call that even remotely normal, you might belong to a mental asylum.

Except druids have been doing exactly that for the whole 7.2 and lets not forget godlike tankines?

[glowpipe]

you know its bad when they disabled the mage tower for Vengeance DH's.

When a tank outdps dps'ers. Even tho the dps aint playing their best. And outdps any other tank by over double the dmg, Then something need to happen and fast

[Tojara]

I like to shit on bear druids too, but I hope people realize that a lot of the really good "bear" logs on Krosus are the embodiment of cheese to the factor of 10. Just look at how much damage they do to embers, and then realize guilds are purposely ignoring as many embers in the front as possible so people can AoE cheese numbers.

Tanks to nobodies surprise do an amazing amount of damage in AoE and that's historically been common place. While Krosus is seen as a ST encounter, guilds who care about parsing can manipulate the boss to get massive AoE out of it even though for all intent and purpose it's completely unnecessary.

Like the top bear druid in 7.2 did 850k DPS on Krosus, with 40% of his damage being done to the adds. Top DH in 7.2 did 750K DPS on Krosus with 3% of their damage being to do adds. Mechanics have something to do with this (bears have giant range with right talent/legendaries on) so it makes it easy for them to cleave, but it also tells us that this isn't the same set of circumstances. Furthermore, at least to me, this tells me that DH DPS really didn't need to be buffed to such silly proportions given what they were capable of prior (granted due to how souls work, you couldn't really spam fracture on every single boss and feels safe in 7.2).

Fast forward to 7.2.5 and the top Vengeance DH after a couple raid days is doing 950k DPS, with only 6% of their damage being to embers. Pretty telling.

Yeah other tanks have been doing great DPS this expansion, but not to this degree. The only time tanks did great DPS compared to actual DPS was early in the expansion before universal nerfs to all tank specs in like dungeons. Early in an expansion being the worst time to gauge DPS vs Tank effectiveness given that DPS scale better, and some DPS do absolutely shitty DPS in constant AoE situations, whereas most tanks thrive.

[Aggrophobic]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...95&class=Tanks

Indeed and when that happens in ToS, it matters.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So much here being taken out of context. We are in farm mode and tanks aren't worried about survival at this point. Prot pallies raid with Seraphim and VDHs can spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb. To quote Munkky:

"Tomb hits like a freight train. We are in "farm mode" right now with NH having been out so long. The playstyle of spamming Spb is for dps and not survival, except in high aoe situations, like dungeons. In Raid you will be using Demon Spikes and soul barrier, everything again."

[Cazz17]

Great tank compared to bad DPS, what do you expect

[Aggrophobic]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...95&class=Tanks

Also, it's nowhere close to beating DPS as you say.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ss=Non-Healers

[Deleted]

So much here being taken out of context. We are in farm mode and tanks aren't worried about survival at this point. Prot pallies raid with Seraphim and VDHs can spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb. To quote Munkky:

"Tomb hits like a freight train. We are in "farm mode" right now with NH having been out so long. The playstyle of spamming Spb is for dps and not survival, except in high aoe situations, like dungeons. In Raid you will be using Demon Spikes and soul barrier, everything again."

Sadly people see only the numbers, best luck seeing VDH in tomb if they nerf the bomb

[Tojara]

So much here being taken out of context. We are in farm mode and tanks aren't worried about survival at this point. Prot pallies raid with Seraphim and VDHs can spam Fracture/Spirit Bomb. To quote Munkky:

"Tomb hits like a freight train. We are in "farm mode" right now with NH having been out so long. The playstyle of spamming Spb is for dps and not survival, except in high aoe situations, like dungeons. In Raid you will be using Demon Spikes and soul barrier, everything again."

That's really not the point. What this tells me is bring the strongest mitigation tank, and have your OT be a vengeance DH doing those exact things you listed for as long as possible. Furthermore encounters where having extra tanks would be nice aren't super uncommon, but aren't always an option because of DPS requirements. When these scenarios arise a third or fourth tank usually doesn't have a 'hard' job, and if Vengenace DHs are self-sustaining and do this much DPS, you can be rest assured that they will be the first option sought, because why not?

Early in MoP in 10 man, if you could run two disc priests you essentially had the luxury of having two of the best healers, and they pretty much combined for a DPS. So what would be 2/2/6 was really like having 2/2/7 in a 10 man format. If you needed three healers the same thing was true, 2/3/5 was more like 2/3/6 because of the added DPS.

Tank and Healer DPS does matter, especially when they aren't that far off of actual DPS numbers. Really doesn't matter if it's farm mode or not, people can see the potential of a tank doing that much DPS and will try to fit it in as much as possible.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That's really not the point. What this tells me is bring the strongest mitigation tank, and have your OT be a vengeance DH doing those exact things you listed for as long as possible. Furthermore encounters where having extra tanks would be nice aren't super uncommon, but aren't always an option because of DPS requirements. When these scenarios arise a third or fourth tank usually doesn't have a 'hard' job, and if Vengenace DHs are self-sustaining and do this much DPS, you can be rest assured that they will be the first option sought, because why not?

Early in MoP in 10 man, if you could run two disc priests you essentially had the luxury of having two of the best healers, and they pretty much combined for a DPS. So what would be 2/2/6 was really like having 2/2/7 in a 10 man format. If you needed three healers the same thing was true, 2/3/5 was more like 2/3/6 because of the added DPS.

Tank and Healer DPS does matter, especially when they aren't that far off of actual DPS numbers. Really doesn't matter if it's farm mode or not, people can see the potential of a tank doing that much DPS and will try to fit it in as much as possible.

So you're saying VDHs might finally have a niche with high-end raid teams?