Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Hashcrypt]

So you are saying that the majority of players are Mythic raiders. If you cap TF to e.g., 15 ilvls (which means you can get a heroic item from normal or a mythic item from heroic, or a Mythic raid item from a 10+ m+) then the absolute vast majority of players would still have an incentive to do and re-do all the content, except "old raids" (let's face it, there is VERY little fun in facerolling normal/heroic difficulty of old raids anyway).

Anyway, it's a pointless discussion. Those that always envied mythic raiders for their gear will now always argue for Titanforging, and the mythic raiders that used to enjoy others envying them will always argue against it.

Mythic raiders will always have better gear than non-mythic players. Always. 100% of them time.

Everyone happy now?

[Deleted]

Mythic raiders will always have better gear than non-mythic players. Always. 100% of them time.

Everyone happy now?

high pvp rewards better ilvl tho, which makes close to zero sense.

[kamuimac]

No the real main issue is that because of WF/TF and other welfare, you easily out-gear basically all content you should be normally doing, especially if your only a casual. Trivial or obsolete 'content' is not fun and literally should not even called content in my books.

im sure that 860 gear ocasional TF to 870 or 880 will make "content obsolete" -_-

[Daffan]

im sure that 860 gear ocasional TF to 870 or 880 will make "content obsolete" -_-

Umm, nethershard gear starts at 880

[kamuimac]

Umm, nethershard gear starts at 880

low itemlevel alts wont get into shard farming groups which means its potentialy 1 piece of 880 gear a week for casuals - crazy fast gearing indeed

[Deleted]

Mythic raiders will always have better gear than non-mythic players. Always. 100% of them time.

Everyone happy now?

That's factually not correct by the way...

Blizzard made the statement that the average mythic guild has a higher ilvl than the average non-mythic guild.

There are plenty of examples of players that have killed 0-3 mythic NH bosses with better gear than players who have killed 10 mythic NH bosses.

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low itemlevel alts wont get into shard farming groups which means its potentialy 1 piece of 880 gear a week for casuals - crazy fast gearing indeed

Here's a tip: Make a group of those low itemlevel alts only. This way you actually EARN your gear instead of leeching it.

[Raelbo]

You do realize that the current system is counterproductive towards this supposed point where people "should" take a break right?

No, I don't realise this, because your arguments are fundamentally flawed. Yes, the current system gives players the choice to play forever. But it removes the imperative to spend more time playing than they want. Thus it is no longer the system which is pushing players to act in a crazy out-of-control manner, but the players themselves.

And this makes a lot of sense because, let's face it, the game cannot stop players who choose to sink ridiculous amounts of time and effort towards trying to outdo their competitors. The game is not, and never has been, the driver of that behaviour. The driver of that behaviour is competition between players, who will always find some way to whatever time/effort they can into an advantage.

And therein lies the critical flaw in your argument: You're attributing this behaviour to game mechanics, yet there is ample evidence to demonstrate that top end guilds have for a very long time been able to find ways to work around limits imposed by the game in order to leverage a time/effort advantage over their competition. A very good example of this, that you have repeatedly mentioned is split runs.

This is why there is a new philosophy behind the way Blizzard are doing things. Don't try and put caps in place, because all that will do is push people who aren't really part of the insanity club to chase those caps. The new philosophy is to let people who are going to go overboard regardless do so, but to give create an environment in which those who don't wish to do so no longer have a valid justification for forcing themselves to do so.

[Redblade]

But it removes the imperative to spend more time playing than they want.

But this is where you show you clear lack of understanding when it comes to the mythic raider and mythic guilds. If you want to keep your raid spot it is an imperative to farm these things. And most mythic raiders will to be competitive even though they might not enjoy it.

And this makes a lot of sense because, let's face it, the game cannot stop players who choose to sink ridiculous amounts of time and effort towards trying to outdo their competitors. The game is not, and never has been, the driver of that behaviour. The driver of that behaviour is competition between players, who will always find some way to whatever time/effort they can into an advantage.

Yet it tries to prevent that by design and has always done that. The answer isn't to add more RNG but instead make things more consistent. If mythic raids dropped max level gear with only the possibility of socket or third stat as WF there would be very few reasons to do split runs except to gear alts in case you need other classes. There would still be a reason to farm mythic raids in order to get everyone their ideal gear and potentially a WF here and there.

It solves the problem and has no impact on the rest of the players.

Your idea that mythic raiders simply up and leave once they hit BiS gear has no basis in reality outside of the occasional exception. They would simply not be mythic raiders for long with that mindset as no guild would have them for very long.

And therein lies the critical flaw in your argument: You're attributing this behaviour to game mechanics, yet there is ample evidence to demonstrate that top end guilds have for a very long time been able to find ways to work around limits imposed by the game in order to leverage a time/effort advantage over their competition. A very good example of this, that you have repeatedly mentioned is split runs.

No I'm saying the behavior is the competitive mindset of the mythic raider, it's not going away no matter how hard Blizzard tries so why make the game design punishing a behavior that isn't going away? And by doing so skewing the competition between guilds by having it boil down to pure luck.

This is why there is a new philosophy behind the way Blizzard are doing things. Don't try and put caps in place, because all that will do is push people who aren't really part of the insanity club to chase those caps. The new philosophy is to let people who are going to go overboard regardless do so, but to give create an environment in which those who don't wish to do so no longer have a valid justification for forcing themselves to do so.

Which is fair enough if they want to head down that route but they are not committed to that. If they were lockouts would be removed. The change to AP in 7.25 wouldn't be there, something that speaks directly against your argument here. The fact remains that Blizzard caps lots of things all the time.

Now there has been multiple solutions to this very problem that has no impact on the rest of the players, I really don't understand why you even try to argue against those kinds of suggestion. You would lose nothing and other players would be happier, so if we shouldn't care what pixels other people have why do you care what pixels we get?

[huth]

I'm not arguing to change anything drastically for those players but you have something wrong. Most mythic guild don't have player in full 925 gear simply due to lockouts. If you want to see the problem with the TF system just watch this, look at what type of gear the highest i-lvl players are wearing.

https://www.wowprogress.com/gearscore/eu

So PvP gear is the easiest way to a high iLvl. Where's the problem?

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Now there has been multiple solutions to this very problem that has no impact on the rest of the players, I really don't understand why you even try to argue against those kinds of suggestion. You would lose nothing and other players would be happier, so if we shouldn't care what pixels other people have why do you care what pixels we get?

Because you have yet to show that there is any actual problem, so there isn't any reason to try solving it.

[Redblade]

So PvP gear is the easiest way to a high iLvl. Where's the problem?

Perhaps mythic raiders don't play the game to PvP? The problem lies in that the top PVE players don't even have max potential gear by doing the max level PVE content in multiple split runs. That top PvP players can get the same isn't a problem, that they can but PVE players can't by doing PVE is.

Besides, the PvP gear was removed so PvP wouldn't be gear dependant, and now it's the best way to get the highest i-level in the world. How screwed up isn't that to begin with? :thinking:

Because you have yet to show that there is any actual problem, so there isn't any reason to try solving it.

Me, all my guildies, other mythic raiders in this thread, mythic top raiders on stream...you need more evidence that there is a problem?

[kamuimac]

But this is where you show you clear lack of understanding when it comes to the mythic raider and mythic guilds. If you want to keep your raid spot it is an imperative to farm these things. And most mythic raiders will to be competitive even though they might not enjoy it.

?

god thank you for admiting and proving once and for all that the one at fault for bringing those insane toxic behaviour into game are mythic guilds and few dicks for whom performace/numbers is more important then the person they raid with

its not bliizzard , its not game , its few dicks who have artificial power as "officers" and decide who do what and who is excluded out of what - this is exackly why milions of people stay away from guilds in game.

this is exackly why mythic raiding brings nothing but toxicity into game - because few idiots decide to exclude their supposed to be "friends" because numbers.

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Me, all my guildies, other mythic raiders in this thread, mythic top raiders on stream...you need more evidence that there is a problem?

so 500-1000 people out of 9 mln that played on legion launch - wow such an important crowd indeed

[Redblade]

more important then the person they raid with

That's not what I said at all...

its few dicks who have artificial power as "officers" and decide who do what and who is excluded out of what - this is exackly why milions of people stay away from guilds in game.

this is exackly why mythic raiding brings nothing but toxicity into game - because few idiots decide to exclude their supposed to be "friends" because numbers.

Can you point on the doll where the mythic raider touched you?

Your whole post reeks of bitterness, it's actually fucking sad and pathetic. Was it some mythic raider denying you a spot in his pug at some point that made you so angry and bitter, or is it just pure jealousy that drives your hatred?

[Grimnakh]

No. I have a max level character of every class. 11 have done almost the exact same kind of content to get gear and theyre all about the same ilvl. WF/TF provides steady progression with diminishing returns which is a good thing. It makes lower level content at least somewhat relevant which makes it more appealing to run that content to help out lower level toons. The only issues are with overpowered and underpowered items that make it more likely for a lucky TF to be too large an upgrade and not getting them to be too much of an issue. Items im this area are usually trinkets, in specs with very specific secondary stats it makes a lot of items useless almost at any item level and OP at a high ilvl for perfect stats. Tier gear is also a problem. At the end of the day this is a mythic raiding issue, nd if Blizz wants to set the ilvl cap at mythic raid ilvl or 10 ilvl under it so they dont have to worry about getting wf/tf items as much that would be fine. (though likely to increase the amount they would have to farm old content because of overpowered items). Item balance and balancing secondary stats for all specs better is the solution to the only real problems with the system. The benefits of lower level gear sometimes upgrading a lot makes the game more fun, and if you are a mythic raider it shpuld be becquse youre a much better player than players that dont mythic raid, and youre going to get more out of the gear anyway while also gettiing much higher avg rewards. A lot of people dont have what it takes to be a mythic raider, including most of the mythic raiders complaining. Find the game balance that works for you. Not every is meant to play at the top level, a level of play that requires perseverence and a lot of work.

[kamuimac]

That's not what I said at all...

If you want to keep your raid spot it is an imperative to farm these things.

so is it or isnt it .

[Redblade]

so is it or isnt it .

It's not a mutually exclusive situation...

Whom you raid with is chosen by what guild you apply to. That guild will have it's demands of what's expected from you and when you sign on you obviously commit to that. If your mindset changes and you're not willing to live up to the standards of the guild you can't expect to have your spot in it either as it would require 19+ other people to adapt to your situation and that's not why they chose you for the raid team in the first place.

[kamuimac]

It's not a mutually exclusive situation...

Whom you raid with is chosen by what guild you apply to. That guild will have it's demands of what's expected from you and when you sign on you obviously commit to that. If your mindset changes and you're not willing to live up to the standards of the guild you can't expect to have your spot in it either as it would require 19+ other people to adapt to your situation and that's not why they chose you for the raid team in the first place.

and again you are confirming that the ones making this abusive enviroment that forces people to stupid masochistic behaviour are guilds not blizzard thank you very much

[Daffan]

WF/TF makes the game boring when most content is outgeared with welfare

[Deleted]

RNG is very fun actually unless you're that top 2% that treats WoW as a job.

Worldwide 2%. 80% are living in asia. So in eu/us the amount of mythic raiders is way higher than 2%, more like 20%.

[Redblade]

and again you are confirming that the ones making this abusive enviroment that forces people to stupid masochistic behaviour are guilds not blizzard thank you very much

It's Blizzard's game design...

But lets ban guilds all together because Kamunimac has an unreasonable hatred towards them after a traumatic experience where he was asked to make an effort. That won't kill the game fast or anything. Now I'm done with you troll.
Infracted

[kamuimac]

Worldwide 2%. 80% are living in asia. So in eu/us the amount of mythic raiders is way higher than 2%, more like 20%.

gotta love alternative math 20 % of 2 % means 0,4 % - indeed number worth to deal with