Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Critical92]

With the dfa build you try to squeeze as much damage as you can inside that sod/dfa/dance window. The spec shines at fights with adds so you use sod to boost the aoe part as well because with a lot of adds (harjatan, mistress, etc) that part also does a lot of damage. And a sod/dfa macro is just easy to make. You could also macro dance with sod and spam that while dfa. Most of the time it is just lazieness.

[Neuroxxic]

I haven't played sub in a while; I just switched from outlaw, so I started creating a few macro's. Would this macro suffice for DfA into ShD before Evis? It's somewhat unnecessary, but it condenses it to 1 button I suppose:

/castsequence reset=5 Death from Above, Shadow Dance

Do I cast SoD too? So like:

/cast Symbols of Death
/castsequence reset=5 Death from Above, Shadow Dance

[Deleted]

I haven't played sub in a while; I just switched from outlaw, so I started creating a few macro's. Would this macro suffice for DfA into ShD before Evis? It's somewhat unnecessary, but it condenses it to 1 button I suppose:

/castsequence reset=5 Death from Above, Shadow Dance

Do I cast SoD too? So like:

/cast Symbols of Death
/castsequence reset=5 Death from Above, Shadow Dance

No idea, but why dont u try it? Btw. using ShD right before you during the DfA animation is pretty much a bug. Normally you are not supposed to use any other skills during that animation.

- - - Updated - - -

No clue. I imagine it's because with the DFA build you're often very energy starved and you don't want to delay your DFA/SoD for another 3-4 seconds waiting for energy.

I've also noticed I get very close to energy capping if I SoD as DFA lands.

A full DFA combo with SoD at end looks like this:

Reach 6 CP > wait 2.5 sec for 25 energy > DFA > 0 energy > DFA animation (1.5 sec=15 energy) > 15 energy > DFA lands + SoD (36+40 energy) > 15+36+40=91 energy

A full DFA combo with SoD before DFA looks like this:

Reach 6 CP > wait 1 sec for GCD > 10 energy (energy regened during GCD) > SoD > 50 energy > DFA > 25 energy > DFA animation > 40 energy > DFA lands > 76 energy

Plus after DFA lands you only really have 4 more GCDs of worthwhile damage left anyways (SoD > DFA > SDance > ShStrike > ShStrike > Evisc > ShStrike) since damage outside of SDance isn't that important.

SoD buffs your DfA's evi and you dont wanna miss on it. Thats why you use SoD before DfA. Besides if you have 2 ShD charges available you wanna try to get two who ShD cycle into one single SoD window to get the maximum benefit of it.

- - - Updated - - -

e: Auto correction sucks

[Terahertz]

SoD buffs your DfA's evi and you dont wanna miss on it. Thats why you use SoD before DfA.

That's what I said. It's pretty obvious you want to use SoD to increase your DFA damage. You don't really have to explain that to anyone.

What my comment was about though was the difference between using SoD before activating DFA and using SoD just before DFA lands energy-wise since there's a difference.

[Deleted]

That's what I said. It's pretty obvious you want to use SoD to increase your DFA damage. You don't really have to explain that to anyone.

What my comment was about though was the difference between using SoD before activating DFA and using SoD just before DFA lands energy-wise since there's a difference.

Oh yeah, i more or less referred to Kaluna's comment but apperently i misunderstood his question. I thought he was asking why SoD is used before DfA in neneral and not why you use SoD before DfA and why you dont use it right before you land macroed with ShD. Your explanation is pretty much accurate then.

[DakonBlackblade]

Oh yeah, i more or less referred to Kaluna's comment but apperently i misunderstood his question. I thought he was asking why SoD is used before DfA in neneral and not why you use SoD before DfA and why you dont use it right before you land macroed with ShD. Your explanation is pretty much accurate then.

When we use ShD right before we land, is the Eviscerate from DfA getting the damage buff from Dark Shadow ? Also if (or when) Blizz fix this bug and make it impossible for us to use any skills during the DfA animation again do you think this Sub build will suffer a heavy blow or will it still manage to compete and even outshine the MfD one ?

[upliftin]

Probably a noobish question but I've to ask:

How do you deal with Finality on Eviscerate when SoD / DFA & SD are up?

I mean, if you don't have a finality on Evi do you still pop everything or delay it to get a Finality buff on Evi from DFA ?

[Deleted]

When we use ShD right before we land, is the Eviscerate from DfA getting the damage buff from Dark Shadow ? Also if (or when) Blizz fix this bug and make it impossible for us to use any skills during the DfA animation again do you think this Sub build will suffer a heavy blow or will it still manage to compete and even outshine the MfD one ?

Thats why you use ShD before you land to make your evi hit hard. I honestly dont know how big the impact is but u could just test it on dummy but i would reckon ist big, since you also benefit from finality evis. And btw. we know from experience that it can take blizzard Ages to fix obvious things huh? Like how long did they takke to fix the double dips on kingsbane? I havent tried the MfD spec yet, so cant really tell you how competetive it is but a friend of mine tested it extensively and he said it was pretty viable so yeah, i guess if they fix it in a year or so, we might go for MfD.

Probably a noobish question but I've to ask:

How do you deal with Finality on Eviscerate when SoD / DFA & SD are up?

I mean, if you don't have a finality on Evi do you still pop everything or delay it to get a Finality buff on Evi from DFA ?

Hard to tell. I personally don't do it since if you get T20 4P SoD and DfA have pretty low CD's and almost line up perfectly. Waiting for Finality would mean to hold 'em back for too long, which is sometimes not easy when NB is about to drop. So the only scenario when i would hold back everything for Finality is when you are expecting a lot of adds which have to be killed as quickly as possible or adds, which respawn frequently, like misstress mythic. But this is my own experience tho.

[Deleted]

All this struggle for 1% more DPS increase(and prolly costing 5-10% trying to execute it perfectly).

As always, go with golden rules and have a nice pull going on(don't get lost fiddeling).

Macro#1
Goremaw's Bite.
Shadow Blades.

Macro#2
SoD.
SD.

Pull:
1)Pot.
2)Shadow Strike.
3)Night Blade(yes, this early on after 1xSS).
4)Macro#1.
5)Get max Combo Points ASAP.
6)DFA
7)Macro#2 before you land.
8)Go on with the rotation(do a full Nightblade, before you enter Shadow Dance again).

Alternative is you can take step 4 out and put it as step 7.5(meaning that you DFA a bit later as you get less Combo Points, but you keep the sustained damage going on after DFA). See how it works for you.

[satori sartori]

Is the vanish bug fixed?

[upliftin]

Hard to tell. I personally don't do it since if you get T20 4P SoD and DfA have pretty low CD's and almost line up perfectly. Waiting for Finality would mean to hold 'em back for too long, which is sometimes not easy when NB is about to drop. So the only scenario when i would hold back everything for Finality is when you are expecting a lot of adds which have to be killed as quickly as possible or adds, which respawn frequently, like misstress mythic. But this is my own experience tho.

Thanks for the answer

[Deleted]

All this struggle for 1% more DPS increase(and prolly costing 5-10% trying to execute it perfectly).

As always, go with golden rules and have a nice pull going on(don't get lost fiddeling).

Macro#1
Goremaw's Bite.
Shadow Blades.

Macro#2
SoD.
SD.

Pull:
1)Shadow Strike.
2)Night Blade(yes, this early on after 1xSS).
3)Macro#1.
4)Get max Combo Points ASAP.
5)DFA
6)Macro#2 before you land.
7)Go on with the rotation(do a full Nightblade, before you enter Shadow Dance again).

Alternative is you can take step 3 out and put it as step 7(meaning that you DFA a bit later as you get less Combo Points, but you keep it going on for later after DFA). See how it works for you.

Why talk about "golden rules" and then suggest that opener? That´s pretty bad.

[Deleted]

Why talk about "golden rules" and then suggest that opener? That´s pretty bad.

Opener is important. Have a nice pull going on...

Again, fiddle less my good man(people tends to overcomplicate stuff and that costs DPS).

[Deleted]

Opener is important. Have a nice pull going on...

Again, fiddle less my good man(people tends to overcomplicate stuff and that costs DPS).

The only thing that costs dps is your opener mate.

[lolpve]

All this struggle for 1% more DPS increase(and prolly costing 5-10% trying to execute it perfectly).

As always, go with golden rules and have a nice pull going on(don't get lost fiddeling).

Macro#1
Goremaw's Bite.
Shadow Blades.

Macro#2
SoD.
SD.

Pull:
1)Pot.
2)Shadow Strike.
3)Night Blade(yes, this early on after 1xSS).
4)Macro#1.
5)Get max Combo Points ASAP.
6)DFA
7)Macro#2 before you land.
8)Go on with the rotation(do a full Nightblade, before you enter Shadow Dance again).

Alternative is you can take step 4 out and put it as step 7.5(meaning that you DFA a bit later as you get less Combo Points, but you keep the sustained damage going on after DFA). See how it works for you.

I use the same macro #2 and it works great but I don't really understand your opener, it doesn't seem optimal at all.

[Deleted]

The only thing that costs dps is your opener mate.

Cheap Shotting me or can you actually correct me?

Reference is(even thou im not following it, the end result is more or less the same, just easier to execute):
https://riff.tf/

- - - Updated - - -

I use the same macro #2 and it works great but I don't really understand your opener, it doesn't seem optimal at all.

You want to enter SD/DFA as soon as possible. The low CP Night Blade is just for giving you the 15% DPS increase.

Which part didnt make sense, it should be really simple(maybe not mathematically optimal, but the difference won't be not noticeable).

[lolpve]

You want to enter SD/DFA as soon as possible. The low CP Night Blade is just for giving you the 15% DPS increase.

Which part didnt make sense, it should be really simple(maybe not mathematically optimal, but the difference won't be not noticeable).

I understand you reasoning but a 2pt nightblade means nightblade will need to be refreshed towards the end of your SoD burst exactly when you want to pump out eviscerates. Also delaying shadow blades for no reason seems strange to me. I don't really know why you would macro it to goremaw.

[Deleted]

I understand you reasoning but a 2pt nightblade means nightblade will need to be refreshed towards the end of your SoD burst exactly when you want to pump out eviscerates. Also delaying shadow blades for no reason seems strange to me. I don't really know why you would macro it to goremaw.

It means that you will refresh it right after DFA, correct(but it doesnt mean anything, because end result will be the same, you just don't fiddle with it).

Delaying SB will give you more time after DFA as you can keep higher sustained DPS(that should make sense), also we are not going for a full Night Blade on pull(contradicting the guides).

Goremaw and SB as macro is just convinent. They line up perfectly(saving a hotkey, which can be essential for you to perform). Also the 3 quick CPs will help you enter DFA SD much quicker. From that perspective, just using Goremaw before and SB after DFA could be even better, for more uptime on CPs(requires testing)?

Im not convinced, that doing all kind of min/max of GCDs will give me so much more benefit, than this simple opener.

[Deleted]

It means that you will refresh it right after DFA, correct(but it doesnt mean anything, because end result will be the same, you just don't fiddle with it).

Delaying SB will give you more time after DFA as you can keep higher sustained DPS(that should make sense), also we are not going for a full Night Blade on pull(contradicting the guides).

Goremaw and SB as macro is just convinent. They line up perfectly(saving a hotkey, which can be essential for you to perform). Also the 3 quick CPs will help you enter DFA SD much quicker. From that perspective, just using Goremaw before and SB after DFA could be even better, for more uptime on CPs(requires testing)?

Im not convinced, that doing all kind of min/max of GCDs will give me so much more benefit, than this simple opener.

You aint using shoulders, right?

[Deleted]

You aint using shoulders, right?

No, im out of luck.

Oh wait...