How come no one ever mentions Russophobia?

[Flarelaine]

It's very relevant. Because it provides context. E.g. without context the Nuremberg Trials with all the executions seems barbaric.

Who's we? NATO sponsored group of Hungarians? And after Soviets left, the same group rewritten the history and now you believe that it was "WE"?
The truth, you know, is a three edged sword. Your side, their side and the truth.

Agitprop. Agitprop never changes.

[Elim Garak]

Agitprop. Agitprop never changes.

You do know that's just a deflection that is ingrained by Hungarian agitprop, right? Everything Soviets said was a lie!

[Flarelaine]

You do know that's just a deflection that is ingrained by Hungarian agitprop, right? Everything Soviets said was a lie!

No, not everything. I even pointed that out to Shalcker a few posts previously. "Never changes" pointed out how these communiqués from Moscow still follow the same template decades later. But of course, if you claim NATO sponsorship for our revolutionaries, I await your proof.

[Shalcker]

As you can guess, we remember that stuff in a somewhat different manner. On the other hand, the Soviet version is indeed quite similar to recent Russian accounts of Crimea. Once again, Moscow has one version and the victims another - who would have thought?

Well, can you expand on your version of events?

And of course there is a kernel of truth in the Soviet version. The Nagy government was indeed weak. Possibly because it was under siege from the start. He announced Hungary would withdraw from the Warsaw Pact - which is a far cry from appealing to them for help. Kádár invited the Soviet troops and ruled the country for the next 33 years (although he was forced out of effective leadership two years before his death).

As far as i see initial uprising obviously went with Nagy - previous Communist party reformer that fought excesses there. And excesses of government already led to dismissal of previous leader a few months prior to uprising, so lots of things were in agreement between USSR and Hungary.

There apparently was call for Soviet troops from Nagy government - claimed to be not from himself though but from one of his ministers.

But once Soviet troops actually left and law enforcement disappeared uprising devolved into hunting and hanging communists and secret police members by shoe colour and general disruption of peaceful life.

So, decision was reversed and Soviet forces returned.

Would same thing happen if communists didn't get killed and threats remained largely verbal or contained to top brass of Hungarian communist party? Maybe it would; maybe it wouldn't. Lots of things went into both initial decision and reversal.



Similar thing happened for Crimea/Donbass (law enforcement virtually disappearing, general lawlessness and all).

[Elim Garak]

No, not everything. I even pointed that out to Shalcker a few posts previously. "Never changes" pointed out how these communiqués from Moscow still follow the same template decades later. But of course, if you claim NATO sponsorship for our revolutionaries, I await your proof.

You want proof of US meddling in Soviet-bloc states? That's like HISTORY, mate.
It wasn't exclusive to Hungary anyway, it was a broad anti-Soviet program. It's not a secret anymore.

[Flarelaine]

Well, can you expand on your version of events?

As far as i see initial uprising obviously went with Nagy - previous Communist party reformer that fought excesses there. And excesses of government already led to dismissal of previous leader a few months prior to uprising, so lots of things were in agreement between USSR and Hungary.

There apparently was call for Soviet troops from Nagy government - claimed to be not from himself though but from one of his ministers.

But once Soviet troops actually left and law enforcement disappeared uprising devolved into hunting and hanging communists and secret police members by shoe colour and general disruption of peaceful life.

So, decision was reversed and Soviet forces returned.

Would same thing happen if communists didn't get killed and threats remained largely verbal or contained to top brass of Hungarian communist party? Maybe it would; maybe it wouldn't. Lots of things went into both initial decision and reversal.

There are always those people who take the opportunity of a general upheaval to settle personal scores. There's no denying that. The main difference is whether you believe all this was homegrown or orchestrated. I prefer following the local consensus that while there was American propaganda over Radio Free Europe, there was no actual coordination. At any rate, there was no time. Just like there was no time for Nagy to rein in the hunt for Communists. We're talking about a couple of days here.

As for the Soviet forces returning, I'm invoking Soviet sources. Even Zhukov suggested troops may be withdrawn if that's the price of "keeping" Hungary - after all, the same Communist party was still in power, so they could have decided it was for the locals to sort out - until Nagy decided to withdraw from the Warsaw Pact. That changed everything literally overnight.

- - - Updated - - -

You want proof of US meddling in Soviet-bloc states? That's like HISTORY, mate.
It wasn't exclusive to Hungary anyway, it was a broad anti-Soviet program. It's not a secret anymore.

Sure, there was meddling. After all, even broadcasting propaganda counts as such - like RT does today. The question is whether there was collusion.

[Elim Garak]

Sure, there was meddling. After all, even broadcasting propaganda counts as such - like RT does today. The question is whether there was collusion.

Collusion was not required but surely there was collusion, not as big as US had hoped for, but still. That's also not a secret.
US was meddling in several areas - they were creating unfavorable economical conditions all around soviet-bloc, causing economy to decline in such states which in turn increased unrest, then the local CIA cell activated and began sowing the seeds of revolution. In Hungary it started with students - students are universally the most susceptible to outside influence.

You were saying about how it looks similar to other soviet-explained situations - here you can see the similarities to how US meddles in other countries. So it shouldn't be that difficult to see why it all looks similar. US did the same thing, Soviets saw the same thing. Over and over again.

[TheImperios]

Order at the cost of freedom, you may keep it.

You will soon have neither. With people like Trump, and movements like the alt-right, will your liberty endure?

[Acidbaron]

You will soon have neither. With people like Trump, and movements like the alt-right, will your liberty endure?

Trump is being kept in check and is barely managing to do anything. Alt-right are fringe groups that will never see a lot of power, at most they'll be able to put a talking
point in a much more moderate version of it on the agenda of centrum right governments.

But it is at least good that you acknowledge we have more freedom here. And no i'm not one bit worried about it all since people who buy into that are either gullible or badly informed.

[Deleted]

With people like Trump, and movements like the alt-right, will your liberty endure?

Actually, that is the only way our liberty WILL endure. If Democrats are ever allowed to have any real power again they will destroy it. Obama did a significant job in his 8 years, but thankfully REAL Americans stepped up and ended it.

[Azmoden]

According to this, http://tass.com/politics/954995 Putin has an approval rating of 81.4%

Putin kills people he doesn't like.

That's why I don't like Russians.

[rowaasr13]

The EU would love to work with a Russian premier that is actually willing to work with them instead of antagonizing them constantly, like Yeltsin.

For some reason under any "Russian premier that is actually willing to work with them", or shall I rather say "ready to bend over and submit to any deranged demands" Russia itself starts to fall into poverty. I wonder, why those pesky Russians don't like that and say collective "fuck you" to the West by electing other people?

[Kraddark]

All the criticism I've seen has been levied at the Russian government rather than the Russian people. It isn't racism to criticize a government.
Regardless, Russia is up to shady stuff and it isn't irrational to be wary of the country's government just like I'm sure other governments are wary of ours.

[rowaasr13]

Please, go ahead and show me one instance of people in this thread showing negative attitude towards Russian people or culture.

its well known that russians are raised to be assholes, ive yet to meet a nice russian person online.

...and some dozen other on first 5 pages. Did you even bother to read the thread?

[Almaric]

Actually, that is the only way our liberty WILL endure. If Democrats are ever allowed to have any real power again they will destroy it. Obama did a significant job in his 8 years, but thankfully REAL Americans stepped up and ended it.

Are "REAL AMERICANS" like "REAL GERMANS" in 1930's ? Grandpa Adolf would be proud.
Also news flash, you don't have liberty in the US, you can't even directly vote for your president. Not to mention corporations own your government.

[Deleted]

Are "REAL AMERICANS" like "REAL GERMANS" in 1930's ?

If you are globalist, you definitely do not qualify as a REAL American.

"you can't even directly vote for your president" - pathetically uniformed thing to say.

[rowaasr13]

I'm pretty sure we dislike Russia's government, not the Russian people themselves.

To you and several dozens of other who keep parotting this mantra and thinks it is makes them "not russophobes". Russia's government have overwhelming majority support - i.e. over 80%. Hating Russian government = hating over 80% of Russians. Not even a bit russophobic, right?

[Independent voter]

According to this, http://tass.com/politics/954995 Putin has an approval rating of 81.4%

Putin kills people he doesn't like.

That's why I don't like Russians.

During Soviet Union times the government had a 100% approval rating.

[Tackhisis]

Putin has an approval rating of 81.4% ... That's why I don't like Russians.

So, the majority likes what you don't like, and you hate the majority? That's a mental disease right here.

[Azmoden]

So, the majority likes what you don't like, and you hate the majority? That's a mental disease right here.

No, the mental disease wold be approving a guy who kills people who gets in his way.

I believe we call them psychopaths.