Kil'jaeden hc time to give up?

[Radaney]

No way....Xavius and Guldan were easier than KJ on Heroic

I think Gul'dan was harder personally, forgot about Xavius..hard not to.

[BiggestNoob]

Where's that guy complaining about bursting and claiming that armageddon scaling and damage scaling doesn't make the fight harder with more people? A missed armageddon soak is a wipe on *normal* if it happens before the darkness intermission, and you get 9 of them at 30, and double soaking is bad unless you have loads of leech or self healing.

It's not that big of a deal in general, it just requires decent coordination. This is an easier mechanic to deal with on 10 man (3 soaks), with larger groups you can get clusters of armageddon on the corners of the platform and you need someone to call out when this happens because you want people to be overly cautious and run back to help. The worst is when it happens in front of KJ because most people aren't looking there, and you should assign some less mobile melee to chill out and soak any that spawn under KJ or near him, because people who are too eager to run out and soak them will not notice those.

[Spotnick]

Took 68 pulls with my 10/10M guild, I expect pugs to have a few hurdles if it's not people who did progression before.

So many soaking failures, and then tank deaths in P3...

[Softbottom]

It's still really early in the tier; I wouldn't get too frustrated. People haven't geared up in full heroic gear and got comfortable with all the fights yet. I don't remember killing Heroic Gul'dan until week 3 or 4 I think? (in pugs). I wouldn't be overly concerned about DPS if people are doing 850-1mill. That fight is entirely execution when it comes to Armageddon.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Armageddon is literally just a personal responsibility test. I've killed Heroic KJ twice these past two weeks in PUGs, and the common denominators of my groups succeeding were:

1. Mages/Pallies/Hunters/DKs/DHs for soaking
2. Multiple Mages for invis'ing beams
3. 700-950k dps of all damage dealers over a 9:02 - 9:52 minute fight
4. Group's average item levels were 918.8 and 920.5
5. Druid or Hunter to ping where Illidan is
6. Group compositions were 2/4/12 and 2/3/11. More than that and the groups ran the risk of having too many bads
7. The group re-tooling swiftly and without bias. If you could not perform (either dps-wise or mechanically) you were removed. Everyone had very short leashes.
8. Entire group on discord

[Vampiregenesis]

Armageddon is literally just a personal responsibility test. I've killed Heroic KJ twice these past two weeks in PUGs, and the common denominators of my groups succeeding were:

1. Mages/Pallies/Hunters/DKs/DHs for soaking
2. Multiple Mages for invis'ing beams
3. 700-950k dps of all damage dealers over a 9:02 - 9:52 minute fight
4. Group's average item levels were 918.8 and 920.5
5. Druid or Hunter to ping where Illidan is
6. Group compositions were 2/4/12 and 2/3/11. More than that and the groups ran the risk of having too many bads
7. The group re-tooling swiftly and without bias. If you could not perform (either dps-wise or mechanically) you were removed. Everyone had very short leashes.
8. Entire group on discord

I go with 2-3-11 aswell , is 2-4-12 any good? it might be hard to push intermission before 2nd armaggedon and skip the 2nd tank add on phase 2 but let me guess is it more safe on last phase?

I think i should learn to analyze skada better , whats a decent percentile for armaggedon rain damage taken?

[Marrilaife]

That's the problem with pugs, it's Trillax cake all over again "why should I bother to go and soak it lowers my big e-peen dps?" Either you manage to reign people in and get them to soak stuff, or they can stay and pad meters for the next 100 wipes.

There are raids like HFC ("there are adds, you need to kill them") where 3 geared & competent dps can carry the rest of the padlords, and then there are raids like TOS where people actually have to soak stuff and there are usually too many of these you can't just assign a handful of people to do all of them.

You can assign people to specific corners of the room and have specific groups responsible for specific sides of the room. If you repeatedly wipe to these, start checking who never ever soaked anything and unless they have a very valid reason, kick them.

Tbh hc Gul'dan pugs were the same level of clown fiesta but it was easier to pin point who didn't dps the eyes than pin pointing who was supposed to soak meteors on KJ but didn't.

[Allenseiei]

I seriously dont know what to do anymore , i killed guldan hc week 2 but kil'jaeden is the true aids , i have done few p3 on him and the times i didnt was a wipe to armaggedon , literally nothing else is hard about this fight , i gathered the best possible group 6 dps out of 11 were doing 920k+ and the others 800k+ and still wiped a ton to armaggedon , every now and then someone moves out too early or something is left unsoaked , i myself as a tank soak every single time and i help as much as possible , im close to get a mental breakdown to this ability , im almost immortal on felclaw and still losing to this shit , it has become unbearable , healers and tanks dont fail anymore but armaggedon does , congrats to blizzard for thinking such a shit ability which is impossible to coordinate properly and has a ton of rng in it aswell and also favors some classes over others.

Doing 800-1M dps is useless i people can't do simple mechanics.

15 is an easy number.
Go with 3 healers, since you don't want that extra tank add at the end of phase 2.
Demon hunters are really usefull in finding illidan with spectral sight.
Mages and hunters to deal with the fire ball in phase 3, and make sure everyone is far away from its spawn.
Most important, soak. If people can't soak, then its on them not on the game. It doesn't matter if tank or healers don't fail, the rest of raid fails.

[TheWorkingTitle]

I go with 2-3-11 aswell , is 2-4-12 any good? it might be hard to push intermission before 2nd armaggedon and skip the 2nd tank add on phase 2 but let me guess is it more safe on last phase?

I think i should learn to analyze skada better , whats a decent percentile for armaggedon rain damage taken?

The 2-4-12 group ended up being the better group, but it was also a slightly more geared group. We pushed intermission both kills, but one group had to stop dps at like 44% to kill off 2nd tank add before phasing. You either have to have the dps to push that phase or stop dps completely and take care of the add. You can't have that add up going into dark phase. Having DKs for gripping adds in dark phase is very helpful as well, and make sure everyone is completely topped off when transitioning into that phase.

No idea about what decent percentiles are for armageddon rain damage. Individually, players took 0.75% - 16.00% of the armageddon rain damage with an average of 7.25% per player.

Also, as Allenseiei said, have a rogue/hunter/demon hunter/mage for kiting the orb in phase 3 and call out/make sure everyone knows to get the hell away from the orb spawning so it doesn't accidently go onto someone else and get dropped right on the raid.

[Saverem]

KJ is like the culmination of the last 2 bosses, Maiden and Avatar.

It has the mechanics of Maiden in that 1 person can wipe the raid if they fuck up (instead of orbs, it's Armegedon)

It has the Avatar's raid damage going out so if you don't have the DPS or healers, you can't beat it.


It's both a mechanics check AND damage/healing check. Can't beat him without meeting those. So even if you take the best DPS doing 1m DPS on him, if they're too dumb to do mechanics, you won't even make it past P1.

[sleepingforest]

In my experience it's usually someone confusing bursting dreadflames for Armageddon finishing. Using voice chat and calling out when people can move would probably fix your issues.

[Deleted]

If people is dumb enough to don't know how to get into a circle and stay for a few seconds until they see a debuff they don't deserve the kill, period. The boss is hard on pugs? yes it is, it was about time we had bosses that needed more coordination than "move out with debuffs, stack at X". Our guild needed 11 trys to know how not to move, once that was done the boss is tank and spank.

[Tang0]

Took 68 pulls with my 10/10M guild, I expect pugs to have a few hurdles if it's not people who did progression before.

So many soaking failures, and then tank deaths in P3...

took us 30~ish pulls in a pug. Mileage may vary i guess. How you can fail soaking in a coordinated raid is beyond me.

[Deleted]

Literally the easiest end boss on NM and HC they have made in ages.

Boss is so unfathomably boring and easy.

Yeah if you outgear it.. it is a boring and easy Fight. The Mechanics arent hard and easy to Deal with but the Numbers still kill you

[Tech614]

Literally the easiest end boss on NM and HC they have made in ages.

Boss is so unfathomably boring and easy.

Can't take this post serious. Xavius was a glorified tank and spank.

[Zarvel]

Literally the easiest end boss on NM and HC they have made in ages.

Boss is so unfathomably boring and easy.

Over-exaggerate much?

Certain mechanics like Armageddon are quite simple yes, but heroic KJ is still a challenge for any group without voice comms.

Not everyone is a world rank 1 raider with 725+ ilv going into the fight.

In-fact gul'dan was a joke comparatively since there wasn't much personal responsibility. Kill any adds, nuke eyes, run out of storm, soak souls, gg ez kill.

[Deathquoi]

Lmao yes if you can't kill the end boss of a heroic raid in a pug by the end of the second week it's out obviously give up and also delete your account, no way you'll ever be able to do it.

What is wrong with you?

[casserole]

There are literally only two reasons the raid can fail Armageddon.

1) Someone moved earlier than they should (probably confused by one of KJ's other abilities that they thought was Armageddon)
2) One or more people in the raid aren't making an effort to get to one of the soak spots.

There is one Armageddon during phase 2 which overlaps with Rupturing Singularity which may cause a wipe due to RNG (for example, if few swirleys appear right next to the corner where the singularity spawned and the raid lacks high mobility classes). Apart from this, it's ALWAYS the incompetence and/or lack of diligence by one or more people in the raid that cause Armageddon to fail

- - - Updated - - -

Following on from my post, you can check who aren't consistently soaking by checking the damage taken from the Armageddon tick damage.

Obviously use the aggregate data from a few attempts. If there are people who haven't taken any Armageddon tick damage over 5 or more attempts, you should replace them.

[PointerToAddress]

We use a WeakAura for the soaks with a big icon in the middle of the room with the words "Don't get baited" with the CD on when the meteors land. Has helped quite a bit. I don't expect for everybody to use WA in a PUG but that's the nature of PUGs, sometimes you have a group that pays attention other times you don't.

[Arainie]

Took my guild 20-25 proper tries to kill him and I think we had 918 average ilvl and 26 members on the kill (2-5-19 if you want to put it that way). Sadly it took me a few tries of ear pinching those who weren't soaking but after that the only issues we had were a couple of tries with tank add in darkness phase and some terrible last phase tries (orbs, obelisks). I wouldn't say it's incredibly difficult, probably actually a bit easier than Gul'dan for an organized group, but the more selfish players you have in your group the harder it will be to kill. And believe me even every single guild struggles with selfish people who don't switch to adds or do mechanics if they're a DPS loss and "someone else can do it".