Blizzard killed Mythic+ dungeons.

[Soulwell]

I agree with you with the statement about +15 being *relatively* easy now -- however even though my rating is fairly lower than yours this season, I did my fair share of dungeons last season and I also have a decent (albeit worse compare to you) gear.

That said I feel like need a reality check since you are forgetting few things here

1) You are judging the difficulty as somebody in 928 ilvl gear (+15 drops 910)
2) You have HC/Mythic T20
3) You obviously run enough dungeons to be rankwise among top 500 dps in your region

It's like accomplished and fully geared mythic raider flexing at casual raiders that HC is too easy... actually I think it's a bit worse.

Frankly the idea of a group in 910-915 ilvl without at least normal mode tier sets doing Upper KZ on +14 with tyranical is kinda ridiculous. Even this week -- when such group likely could finish a +15 -- they would likely not be able to get a key to +15 (unless they get really lucky with keys).

While I like the concept of M+ I have to say that there are a huge issues with loot/difficulty balance.

There's no balance issue at all. If you can't do it then don't try to do it then whine about it. Get better, get better gear and then try it again. Things have a difficulty for a reason. The games harder/hardest end game content isn't catered to people that play casually it never has been and never will be. Absolutely no point in having an end game if you want it to be some sort of socialist environment( oh he's a better player than me give me what he has earned even though I've done nothing). Onto not being able to do a 14 upper Kara on tyrannical, avoid it. You know the dungeon is bad so just don't do it there's a group of 5 people while farming m+ there's not a single chance in hell everyone of you has upper Kara.
ITT: stop whining about things being difficult when they aren't. Don't expect to do harder content when you play at a casual level it's your fault not everyone elses.

[Alphatorg]

I don't get the point of this thread.
So the supposed equivalent to mythic raiding isn't a loot pinata for nhc/hc raiders!? What a shocker.
Something that you can spam as much as you want doesn't drop the same ilvl as something that's on a weekly lockout!? What a shocker.

[Puri]

This is just false. M+ =/= raids. Because it is repeatable the reward is worse than the requirement, and you are essentially farming for titan forge. it is to create replayability. NEVER, EVER, in legion has anyone thought, or has blizzard conveyed, that m+ should be completed easily by people in lower ilvl than what drops from the dungeon.

Except that when the game was released you would easily run through normal mythics and m+ with significantly less itemlevel (talking 810-815 here) than the drops in those dungeons.
Actually during EN it was a real alternative gearing way, even better than raiding.

[kamuimac]

I don't get the point of this thread.
So the supposed equivalent to mythic raiding isn't a loot pinata for nhc/hc raiders!? What a shocker.
Something that you can spam as much as you want doesn't drop the same ilvl as something that's on a weekly lockout!? What a shocker.

if it is supposed to be eqivalent then it shoudl drop equal loot - i suppose nobody here who runs mythic + woudl have any problem with its current tuning if +15 was droping 930 itlv loot.

then the ones who would be whining would be mythic raiders how it "cheapens" their experience.

and thats why blizzard fucked over mythic + crowd.

[Alphatorg]

if it is supposed to be eqivalent then it shoudl drop equal loot - i suppose nobody here who runs mythic + woudl have any problem with its current tuning if +15 was droping 930 itlv loot.

then the ones who would be whining would be mythic raiders how it "cheapens" their experience.

and thats why blizzard fucked over mythic + crowd.

I know my post contained a lot of words, but maybe you could try really hard and read it till the end. Mythic raiding doesn't give you an endless supply of 930 items, usually you get like 0-2 per week. And what a shock, +15 - which has the difficulty of the first three bosses at most - gives you one guaranteed item per week.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

It's great for alts. My guild mates have ran my alts through 10-15 dungeons going up and down (depleting) and our alts are always going from 850/860 to 890-900 (depends on ur luck) same day.

[chronia]

if it is supposed to be eqivalent then it shoudl drop equal loot - i suppose nobody here who runs mythic + woudl have any problem with its current tuning if +15 was droping 930 itlv loot.

then the ones who would be whining would be mythic raiders how it "cheapens" their experience.

and thats why blizzard fucked over mythic + crowd.

Sorry but running a +15 is generally alot easier than progressing Mythic bosses., if M+ should drop Mythic ilvl on each run, instead of only the weekly chest that should only happen in much higher runs, i reckon like 18's/19s or maybe even higher since + is highly repeatable. Clearing a 15 feels difficulty wise alot more comparable to heroic raiding than it feels to mythic raiding.

[Korban]

Imo m+ was never worth the trouble. The item level is just SO low from the drops themselves. You need a high titanforge to somewhat compete with mythic raid loot.

The game doesn't revolve around Mythic raiding.

There's no balance issue at all. If you can't do it then don't try to do it then whine about it. Get better, get better gear and then try it again. Things have a difficulty for a reason. The games harder/hardest end game content isn't catered to people that play casually it never has been and never will be.

M15+ with 910 ilevel items is not end game content.

[kamuimac]

Sorry but running a +15 is generally alot easier than progressing Mythic bosses., if M+ should drop Mythic ilvl on each run, instead of only the weekly chest that should only happen in much higher runs, i reckon like 18's/19s or maybe even higher since + is highly repeatable. Clearing a 15 feels difficulty wise alot more comparable to heroic raiding than it feels to mythic raiding.

it is only easier if you go there in 930 itlv from ToS - go in there with 900 itlv and you will get smashed into ground - unless you are one of those people who run 5k dungeons and then claim how "easy" they are - which is just pathetic and sad not really reason to brag - its as if pro boxer would and smash into ground 15 year old - would that make you proud of yourself ?

[chronia]

it is only easier if you go there in 930 itlv from ToS - go in there with 900 itlv and you will get smashed into ground - unless you are one of those people who run 5k dungeons and then claim how "easy" they are - which is just pathetic and sad not really reason to brag - its as if pro boxer would and smash into ground 15 year old - would that make you proud of yourself ?

Where do you get this false info, lets get some facts here:

According to our guild audit spreadsheet i've ran 587 M+ since the start, nearly exclusive in guild / friend groups (different comps thoug, not a fixed 5 man team).
I'm in a mostly heroic raid guild, with a small dabble each tier in Mythic raid (since were talking 7.2.5 were 8/9 Heroic atm, so not even 1 mythic kill yet).

And still we complete 15's fine in guild even on alts that only raid normal and do M+, you no where need the ilvl you are mentioning to do 15's , 900 to 910's can easily complete 15's (timer might be hard) if you take the effort to do the runs, it shouldn't be a walk in the park though. But you really don't need to be in a Mythic guild to do M+. 15 is just not that hard, its not super easy also, but doable as a Normal / Heroic geared player? Yeah it definatinaly is. If were talking running 17+ or higher in time, then probably yeah, Mythic gear is very very helpfull.

[BannedForViews]

Except that when the game was released you would easily run through normal mythics and m+ with significantly less itemlevel (talking 810-815 here) than the drops in those dungeons.
Actually during EN it was a real alternative gearing way, even better than raiding.

This is just not accurate, and also ignores the reality of the design. Mythic dungeons are not supposed to be hard, they are supposed to be a way to gear up a fresh character. Even early M+ were never really meant to be too difficult, but the scaling of the dungeons quickly outpaces the gear, by design, so that a lot of people are able to get close to the top in terms of ilvl, but not actually at it. It is actually well designed, even though I firmly hate titanforging.

Just look how many characters are 920 or so now, but how many are over 930? 935? It's very difficult to get that max level gear. This is on purpose. You aren't supposed to just walk into it. You are able to gear up to attempt harder content, but you aren't supposed to be handed the best stuff for free.

And all of this ignores that l2p is still a large portion of the equation here. I didn't my first 15s in the new difficulty settings when i was in NH gear, around 912 or so, and the loot hadnt even been upgraded yet. I was doing that for 890 gear, which now would give 910 gear. It just so happens that due to raiding, I'm over 930 now, and it's even easier, but people in sub 910 ilvl can complete 15s. We do alt groups all the time in my guild.

[Puri]

This is just not accurate, and also ignores the reality of the design. Mythic dungeons are not supposed to be hard, they are supposed to be a way to gear up a fresh character. Even early M+ were never really meant to be too difficult, but the scaling of the dungeons quickly outpaces the gear, by design, so that a lot of people are able to get close to the top in terms of ilvl, but not actually at it. It is actually well designed, even though I firmly hate titanforging.

Just look how many characters are 920 or so now, but how many are over 930? 935? It's very difficult to get that max level gear. This is on purpose. You aren't supposed to just walk into it. You are able to gear up to attempt harder content, but you aren't supposed to be handed the best stuff for free.

And all of this ignores that l2p is still a large portion of the equation here. I didn't my first 15s in the new difficulty settings when i was in NH gear, around 912 or so, and the loot hadnt even been upgraded yet. I was doing that for 890 gear, which now would give 910 gear. It just so happens that due to raiding, I'm over 930 now, and it's even easier, but people in sub 910 ilvl can complete 15s. We do alt groups all the time in my guild.

I don't even get what you want to tell me. All I said is that you need to have in general higher gear for high m+ than what drops in those dungeons, and you pretty much confirmed that.
And what is possible and what not is not easily to tell. Someone sporting ilvl 900 but has tier set is vastly outperforming someone in 910 random non tier. Just because some guild is able to have a first kill with an itemlevel that even statistically is barely enough to kill a boss does not mean that this applies to the rest of the community.

[Soulwell]

The game doesn't revolve around Mythic raiding.



M15+ with 910 ilevel items is not end game content.

Clearly for the people that post here it's about +12

[hulkgor]

I agree with you with the statement about +15 being *relatively* easy now -- however even though my rating is fairly lower than yours this season, I did my fair share of dungeons last season and I also have a decent (albeit worse compare to you) gear.

That said I feel like need a reality check since you are forgetting few things here

1) You are judging the difficulty as somebody in 928 ilvl gear (+15 drops 910)
2) You have HC/Mythic T20
3) You obviously run enough dungeons to be rankwise among top 500 dps in your region

It's like accomplished and fully geared mythic raider flexing at casual raiders that HC is too easy... actually I think it's a bit worse.

Frankly the idea of a group in 910-915 ilvl without at least normal mode tier sets doing Upper KZ on +14 with tyranical is kinda ridiculous. Even this week -- when such group likely could finish a +15 -- they would likely not be able to get a key to +15 (unless they get really lucky with keys).

While I like the concept of M+ I have to say that there are a huge issues with loot/difficulty balance.

Hey, i do agree with you in some regards.

What people seem to forget is how quickly (vastly faster actually) you can gear up doing m+s. Even starting at 12-14s, you get a LOT of drops with a very decent base itemlevel. Hell, most of the people i run m+s with are not raiders whatsoever, and have similar gear than mine. The only difference being the new tier from ToS. Just today, i saw 940 and 950s dropping (not for me ofc ).... 17-18s usually drop 4 items. That's a loot of loot. A raid gives out 1 item per 5 players, with a weekly cap. M+ have no limits\caps whatsoever.

Whilst raiding drops start at a higher base level, sure, you can't farm those. A farming session on m+s will yield vastly more loot per player (with the chance for awesome items) than raiding, without the hassles, the delays and even the coordination.

I actually think m+s reward too much loot right now, but that's the main reason people actually run them, so, have at it.

[rogoth]

They fucked the loot so bad, I don't care to do them anymore.

the loot is fine, the chance of getting a meaningful upgrade on the other hand, that's where the problem lies, it takes on avg hundreds of runs to see your first really decent ilvl piece of loot not counting item trading from others, and as a supplement to raid drops, it's just ludicrous the amount of effort needed vs reward given, and not really worth the hassle unless you have a premade team that can clear any 10/15 dungeon in an efficient time scale to class it as 'farming'.

[BannedForViews]

I don't even get what you want to tell me. All I said is that you need to have in general higher gear for high m+ than what drops in those dungeons, and you pretty much confirmed that.
And what is possible and what not is not easily to tell. Someone sporting ilvl 900 but has tier set is vastly outperforming someone in 910 random non tier. Just because some guild is able to have a first kill with an itemlevel that even statistically is barely enough to kill a boss does not mean that this applies to the rest of the community.

You claim it was easier to get complete m+ early in legion with low ilvl gear but nothing has changed. It is still easy to complete mythic dungeons which drop 865 with far lower than 865, it's just nobody has to. It is also easy enough to complete low M+ say sub 7, or eve sub 10, with lower than what drops from them, but once again, very few people are in the position to legitimately progress on that shit this late in the xpac. but 10+ was a LOT harder early on in legion. very few bothered doing it.

tl:dr, nothing has changed, at all. It's still a lot harder to do the highest level dungeon dropping gear than the stuff just right below it.

[Puri]

You claim it was easier to get complete m+ early in legion with low ilvl gear but nothing has changed. It is still easy to complete mythic dungeons which drop 865 with far lower than 865, it's just nobody has to. It is also easy enough to complete low M+ say sub 7, or eve sub 10, with lower than what drops from them, but once again, very few people are in the position to legitimately progress on that shit this late in the xpac. but 10+ was a LOT harder early on in legion. very few bothered doing it.

tl:dr, nothing has changed, at all. It's still a lot harder to do the highest level dungeon dropping gear than the stuff just right below it.

Yes, but then you replied completely out of context.

[nidosarg]

Puri so you are saying just becouse is "M+ dungeon": you can do keys 15+ with 895+ ilvl and get 915 ilvl for free? And the chance of Titanforge?

Thats dosnt make no sense dude, YOU HAVE 895 ILVL DO 10+ TILL YOU GET MORE ILVL TO DO 15+ = 915+ ILVL

People want to gear faster as hell, and 0 effort to do this.. BUT when that happens they say: ITS TOO EASYYYY. M+ SHOULD BE REMOVED, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[kamuimac]

What people seem to forget is how quickly (vastly faster actually) you can gear up doing m+s.

yes i would love to hear from you how quickly - because unless you have 4 other people ready and willing to carry you that process is as far away from "quick" as possible- starting with the fact that if you are low itlv nobody in group finder will invite you to anything - which means that maaaybe if you are lucky and find people willing to carry your key you can do +2 +5 +8 +10 +12 +14 - whole amazing 6 dungeons having low chance to drop loot for you class/spec and low chance it will be actual upgrade per week. even normal tos has bigger chnces because its 9 chances to drop something not 6 -_-

it is only fast if stable group with keys is willing to carry and gear you up - stop spreading nonsense that average joe will gear up quickly in group finder becaue you are insulting your own inteligence by doin so -_-

[seraknis]

it is only fast if stable group with keys is willing to carry and gear you up - stop spreading nonsense that average joe will gear up quickly in group finder becaue you are insulting your own inteligence by doin so -_-

There is a limit at how many raid bosses you can kill in a week, there isn't a limit for m+