Redraw the borders of the Middle East

[Techno-Druid]

Can't really speak on this conversation as the only Greek slave I'm familiar with in the history of the Ottoman Empire was Ibrahim Pasha.

The slavery in the Ottoman Empire was not chattel slavery as far as I know, but slavery nonetheless.

[Kalis]

In 16th century, there wasn't a concept of "own people". You are interpreting history with contemporary nationalistic concepts. It's a mistake. And yes, it was fluffy and nice compared to other forms of slavery.

Today I learnt that rape, beatings and brainwashing are fluffy and nice. Wow!

No, the Turks were brutal slavers. They were certainly not the only ones who did that, but to claim their slavery was somehow okay is disgusting. You are effectively saying that raping women due to their religion is fluffy and nice, that beating and killing men is okay if they happen to be Christians is fluffy and nice.

Perhaps in your view that is what constitutes fluffy and nice, to me it is abhorrent.



I am sure @Ataswin; would like to know that the Ottoman treatment of Greeks was a fluffy and nice form of slavery.

[Kuntantee]

Offered? Forced is a tad more accurate. You can compare Ottoman slavery to slavery, what you are describing is ahistorical fantasy, where the Turks never did anything wrong.

From wiki:

The Balkan peasantry tried to evade the tribute collectors initially, but some poor families started offering their children voluntarily as it offered them prospects not available to them in any other manner.[28] Conversion to Islam was used in Bosnia and Herzegovina to escape the system. Some Muslim families tried to have the recruiters take their sons so they could achieve professional advancement.[29]

Yeah, they did offered their sons. This passage mentions peasants but not only them. This guy was not a slave.

- - - Updated - - -

but to claim their slavery was somehow okay is disgusting.

Don't put words into my mouth. I am fairly sure I used the word "compared to". If you judge by today's standars, which is a mistake in history, sure it was shit but I'll take it over colonial slavery. There is a great canyon between Ottoman method of slavery and colonial slavery.

[Kalis]

From wiki:



Yeah, they did offered their sons. This passage mentions peasants but not only them. This guy is not a slave.

Your argument is that they were not all slaves, therefore they were not slaves and were treated okay?

Because it was believed that nobody who breathed English air could be a slave, using your style of argument there were therefore no slaves in English history ever. Of course that is bollocks, just like your argument.

[Kuntantee]

Can't really speak on this conversation as the only Greek slave I'm familiar with in the history of the Ottoman Empire was Ibrahim Pasha.

The slavery in the Ottoman Empire was not chattel slavery as far as I know, but slavery nonetheless.

Half of the grand vezirs are "slaves". Not to mention several "slave" girls were officially accepted into Ottoman dynasty. It tells you something, doesn't it?

[Kalis]

Don't put words into my mouth. I am fairly sure I used the word "compared to". If you judge by today's standars, which is a mistake in history, sure it was shit but I'll take it over colonial slavery. There is a great canyon between Ottoman method of slavery and colonial slavery.

Compared to other forms of slavery, Ottoman slavery was just as barbaric. It was not nicer unless you were very lucky, which was also true of slavery by the European powers, where occasionally a black man was freed and did well for themself, but those cases are the exception and not the rule.

There is no great canyon between Ottoman slavery an colonial slavery. Both were barbaric, both involved extreme physical and mental abuse, untold people lived and died in misery as a result of both.

You are parroting Turkish nationalist nonsense, as if they are somehow the A-Team of slavers and they never did anything wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Half of the grand vezirs are "slaves". Not to mention several "slave" girls were officially accepted into Ottoman dynasty. It tells you something, doesn't it?

Considering the number of slaves taken, how many hundreds of thousands of grand vezirs were there exactly? It tells you that sometimes people struck it lucky, it says absolutely bugger all about Ottoman slavery for most of those affected.

[Gaidax]

Someone gotta propose this to Donald, he can do it.

[D3thray]

I'm for many separatist movements in Western countries; Catalonia, the Basques, Scotland, Quebec, etc.

It's also not segregation as much as it's the building of nation-states. I'm actually pro-immigration in most aspects.

I mean maybe it's not segregation in the sense of two peoples separated in one country, but instead on a grander scale. To me it seems odd that we can have rather casual discussions about what are essentially cultural clashes and come to the conclusion we should put them in separate countries, but for our own we preach multi-culturalism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander wouldn't you say? (Western countries being the goose)

[Deleted]

Compared to other forms of slavery, Ottoman slavery was just as barbaric. It was not nicer unless you were very lucky, which was also true of slavery by the European powers, where occasionally a black man was freed and did well for themself, but those cases are the exception and not the rule.

The devsirme, which is the blood tax I'm assuming you're refering to, was abolished in late 16th century. At the time it was abolished as a practice, the British Empire had just started importing slaves from colonies, in fact. That was the most slavery-like thing in the Ottoman Empire, and it was a truly horrible tradition, I admit. Only thing worse than it through history were the various genocides, regardless of opportunities that arose from it. Funnily enough, it was abolished due to Janissaries being way too competent for the average Ottoman to compete with...

You can't, with a straight face, say one Empire was better than the other, and if you do, that's your national pride getting in the way. Empires don't get to where they are because they play nice. Point in question is that in the late 18th - early 19th century, most of the nations in the Ottoman Empire lived significantly than most non-British Isle subjects of the British Empire.

Enslaving Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians or whatever, in 19th century, chattel style, is something that never happened.

[Kalis]

The devsirme, which is the blood tax I'm assuming you're refering to, was abolished in late 16th century. At the time it was abolished as a practice, the British Empire had just started importing slaves from colonies, in fact. That was the most slavery-like thing in the Ottoman Empire, and it was a truly horrible tradition, I admit. Only thing worse than it through history were the various genocides, regardless of opportunities that arose from it. Funnily enough, it was abolished due to Janissaries being way too competent for the average Ottoman to compete with...

You can't, with a straight face, say one Empire was better than the other, and if you do, that's your national pride getting in the way. Empires don't get to where they are because they play nice. Point in question is that in the late 18th - early 19th century, most of the nations in the Ottoman Empire lived significantly than most non-British Isle subjects of the British Empire.

Enslaving Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians or whatever, in 19th century, chattel style, is something that never happened.

I never said the British Empire was better, however the lack of acknowledgement of Ottoman atrocities - even going so far as people trying to claim their form of slavery was somehow benevolent by quoting a handful of examples of ones who did okay - is nationalist historical revisionism of the worst sort.

It smacks of the whole "When Europeans do it then it is bad, when anyone else does it is good" nonsense that is pervasive amongst Turkish (and other) hyper-nationalists and, more bizarrely, European left wingers - they have some strange bedfellows.

Well no, the Ottomans are not going to get a free pass on slavery, and to bring it back to the original conversation, the Middle East has been rife with slavery and sectarian violence for millenia. The last century is no different to any other period in Middle Eastern history and their problems do not stem from European interference, as they had the same problems before there was such a thing as a European state, let alone a power capable of exerting much influence in that region.

The Middle East is, and always has been, the centre of ethnic/cultural/religion based violence, for the simple reason that there are so many different ones crammed into the same small space.

[Deleted]

I never said the British Empire was better, however the lack of acknowledgement of Ottoman atrocities - even going so far as people trying to claim their form of slavery was somehow benevolent by quoting a handful of examples of ones who did okay - is nationalist historical revisionism of the worst sort.

It smacks of the whole "When Europeans do it then it is bad, when anyone else does it is good" nonsense that is pervasive amongst Turkish (and other) hyper-nationalists and, more bizarrely, European left wingers - they have some strange bedfellows.

Well no, the Ottomans are not going to get a free pass on slavery, and to bring it back to the original conversation, the Middle East has been rife with slavery and sectarian violence for millenia. The last century is no different to any other period in Middle Eastern history and their problems do not stem from European interference, as they had the same problems before there was such a thing as a European state, let alone a power capable of exerting much influence in that region.

The Middle East is, and always has been, the centre of ethnic/cultural/religion based violence, for the simple reason that there are so many different ones crammed into the same small space.

On this, I can completely agree with you - except to add that pre-WW2 and the post-war agreements, Europe was just as much of a centre for that kind of violence. . I wasn't trying to be an Ottoman apologist, by any means, or defending the course Turkey is taking. It's basically spitting on Ataturk and his principles, which is abhoring, considering he's one of the greatest politicians of the 20th century (IMO).

I guess we need to wait and see, but I do hope Turkey-EU relations improve and expand to the level they were before - Turning more and more authoritarian and non-secular is bad for everyone.

[Kalis]

On this, I can completely agree with you - except to add that pre-WW2 and the post-war agreements, Europe was just as much of a centre for that kind of violence. . I wasn't trying to be an Ottoman apologist, by any means, or defending the course Turkey is taking. It's basically spitting on Ataturk and his principles, which is abhoring, considering he's one of the greatest politicians of the 20th century (IMO).

I guess we need to wait and see, but I do hope Turkey-EU relations improve and expand to the level they were before - Turning more and more authoritarian and non-secular is bad for everyone.

I said in an earlier post that mainland Europe had the same problem, for the same reason. In Britain we had nearly two centuries of relative peace internally, between Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Irish War of Independence, which was something of a rarity and possibly due to our attention being focused on building Empire.

It seems to be human nature that when one group comes into contact with another, they beat the shit out of each other, the closer they are and the more groups there are, the more shit beating out happens. The Middle East has had millenia of this, it will likely have a lot more, for those trying to lay the blame on the Sykes-Picot borders, that fails to explain the previous thousands of years of the exact same crap happening.

And to the person calling for a resurgance of Zoroastrianism, of all the things the Middle East does not need, more religion is pretty much at the top of the list.

[Logwyn]

Sadly, the solution to the ME problem is and always has been to wait until they run out of oil.

Then they will have no easy source of wealth and it's a god damn desert. The average summertime temperature in Saudi Arabia is 112 degrees. No one will want to live there. Also, the westerners who they all hate will disappear because they are only there for the oil.

How long till this happens???

[Deleted]

A while, but that's the endgame. Maybe by the time we're old men.

And what will you do when after 50 years, they will own half of all properties in your country? Will you beat them to death? Might as well start with it now.

[Mormolyce]

I don't think there's a problem on earth that you can solve by drawing a line on a map.

[Auxora]

The main conflict going on/building in the ME (beyond the obvious arab-Isreali) is Sunni vs. Shia which this fantasy redrawing is totally oblivious to. It's not going to be redrawn, but if for armchair theory kicks we want to ponder it the redrawn borders would be this cut in 2 large lands in the graphic below (Sunni purple, Shia green) with the third being Israel where they are.

This also explains why it's hard to look at the ME problem with a Western mindset of borders, when the people there think of it much more in terms of this map. That's why the Saudis and Iran are effectively fighting a proxy war in Syria, it's why the Saudis are fighting the rebels in Yemen, and it's why Saudi Arabia and Iran are always on the brink of war directly. Both the Sunnis and Shia hate Israel but the conflict between these 2 religious groups goes back hundreds of years and goes beyond borders.

[xChurch]

It would be nice if the people there could get together and agree on their borders since much of the ME pretty similar terrain wise. Good luck getting anyone to agree to it though. The time to draw the map correctly was when a long time ago and it's way to late to change it peacefully now.

[Stelio Kontos]

I am sure @Ataswin; would like to know that the Ottoman treatment of Greeks was a fluffy and nice form of slavery.

Someone should have told my grandfather. As I've said in other topics, he was born in Ottoman-occupied Epirus just before the Greek army liberated it in 1913. He was born with the legal status of livestock. He only became a full-fledged human with attending rights once the region was free.

Fluffy and nice indeed. That's why it's so fondly-remembered by Greeks. Truly a golden age.

[Gref]

On a more serious note, redrawing borders now after they've been set for almost 70 years would probably just lead to even worse violence than now.

OH man with that Turkey would be a complete tourism heaven. Its better than my artificial canal project that connects black see to Mediterranean while splitting it from the shitland using Turkeys borders.

[Kuntantee]

Considering the number of slaves taken, how many hundreds of thousands of grand vezirs were there exactly? It tells you that sometimes people struck it lucky, it says absolutely bugger all about Ottoman slavery for most of those affected.

Grand Vezir is not the only title. You have hundreds of Pashas and Aghas (military commanders) and other administrative positions. The rest were used as "er" (foot soldier). And unlike popular belief, ethnic Turks (Sipahis) did the bulk of the fighting. Ottoman Army had like 12k - 15k jannisaries (conscripted -- "enslaved" -- European peasants) and the rest (~80k or so) sipahis. The figures depended on the year and power of the empire, obviously. And to be fair, we hardly ever enslaved Greeks. It was mostly your Eastern neighbors. We let Greeks to run/teach in the navy and do their craft. Same for Armenians.

There is no great canyon between Ottoman slavery an colonial slavery.

Yes there is, whether you accept it or not. It's implied by the very practices.
Is it barbaric to today's standards? Yes. Is it better than colonial slavery? A great canyon between the two.

- - - Updated - - -

OH man with that Turkey would be a complete tourism heaven. Its better than my artificial canal project that connects black see to Mediterranean while splitting it from the shitland using Turkeys borders.

Only if we didn't have radiation problem tho.