Legion is unfriendly to returning players from previous expansions

[epLe]

I would have thought this was obvious: There is a big difference between farming for hours 11 years ago, and farming now. 11 years ago many people had more time. 11 years ago people may have been kids with no responsibilities but now that's not the case. Do YOU have as much time now as you had 11 years ago?

There is no difference in farming for hours now and then.

Time is always coming, and it is always constant. A matter of perspective.
But every person got exactly as much time now as they did 11 years ago, 24 hours a day.

And actually in your perspective I got more time now than 11 years ago.

[Sting]

I had three friends come back to the game this patch after quitting in the first month. They all had concordance, flying and their class mount within two weeks.

[Tahleris]

i cant stop laughing when anyone claims to play vanilla/tbc and claims to not have had a problem to grind all the shit in vanilla yet minimal farm in legion is suddenly problem for him - i wonder how you farmed resist gear back then if farming ap is too much .

Because back then, most of us had next to no real life commitments that amounted to our ability to work with other folks to QUICKLY farm AQ40 for nature resist so we could start farming Naxx 40...

[TheVaryag]

Little background on myself for context: I've be+en playing Warcraft games since 1996 and became a fan of the lore since I first opened the Warcraft 2 manual when I was 13. I missed launch but I started playing WoW in February 2005. Like many of us old-schoolers I was fairly hardcore playing with friends right up through Wrath, then started falling into a more casual playstyle during Cata-onwards with long breaks as content dried up.

I was disgusted with Warlords. Disgusted. Lazy, bad expansion. We all know that. Nothing new to say. On paper I love to see what's happened with Legion. Regular content updates, something for everyone, a return to dungeons, more raids, better world content in patches, MORE patches, a seemingly-infinite flow of new stuff to do. Shame it's too grindy.

Legion has WAY too much time-gating. Way too many single-expansion timesinks. Too many bars to fill. Too many Arbitrary Magic Fun Points to grind. Not enough things carried between characters or specs.

As an example: I'm someone who loves Story. I would love to complete the zones, unlock my flying, hit all the dungeons and do Suramar, hit LFR and get the story for all the raids and do the broken shore. Unfortunately I'd also have to get my artifact traits, click on mission tables, wait for timers to count down and daily limits on quest content to unlock. These things aren't fun. They get in the way of fun. And that's a shame.

If you made it through my wall of text do tell me, am I alone? Or is the barrier to entry just too high at this point? Should a grumpy old bastard like myself that spends too much time in front of a computer for work all day maybe just give up and move on?

WoW has never Been grindier, hell It's not been so bad In Vanilla you have to admit that. To me It feels the game doesn't respect my time and just wants to take more of It and waste It, LFR being gated every 2 weeks Is step number one, step number two was Broken Shore and the "Campaigns" as they Insultingly call them given to us weekly, which are really just weekly quests with grinding. 6.0 had a better "Campaign" than 7.2, so did 6.2, 5.1 and 5.3 patches. Saying "We ran out of content to give so here's some weekly quests" doesn't excuse leaving the label "Campaign" there to mislead people.

But I'm glad you get most of the point already, clicknig table missions, waiting for timers to countdown, that's not content. If we want more content to do we earn It, just like 5.1 Landfall did for example, you get reputation from daily quests, you get to unlock Campaigns, actual, good story campaigns with lore and shiz.

You aint alone man, It's just that WoW's been re-made for casuals and centered around them which Is the biggest mistake WoW has ever made, It's unfriendly to hardcore raiders and PvPers, RPers probably don't care as I'm one of them... I mean It would've been nicer If I had my real characters to play with but hey, blizzard things.

I liked WoD to a point, without the garrisons being so horrible and the non-existant content, Id' have lover It, possibly more than TBC. But no, It's now second worst expansion with -the- worst being Legion. Yes Legion Is worse, It only looks good to the rest of you cause WoD was so bad, think about It.

Legion and just WoW Is still heavily new player and returning player unfriendly, the previous expansion zones are forgotten, which could be easily fixed If you just re-work your heirlooms to not be so OP, spend developer time on re-working zones to be able to go through them much more smoothy rather than making even more Mythic + dungeons, aka speedrunning -the- dungeon which Is the most boring and lazy version of a dungeon. Here's a normal dungeon, here's a heroic dungeon, now here you do the same dungeons over and over again with a timer and different buffs on the mobs, enjoy. Like no, I won't enjoy that... If I wanted to speedrun something I'd play another game. Or just pull out my phone, ready my stopwatch and run through a dungeon on my own.

Or... I'd actually do Challenge Mode from WoD cause that's basically Mythic + but with AP rewards Instead of transmogs, It's nothing new or innovative and It doesn't make Dungeons relevant all across the expansion It just makes them even more pointless and boring to do. I doubt anyone going though half of the dungeons even looked UP, or just stopped and looked Into some cave for treasures or just explored It... speedrunning a dungeon Is like visiting a popular tourist city and taking a tour of the city on a bus, you'll see the city, sure. But you won't remember the ctiy, you won't remember the architecture, the people around, the shops, you won't notice the details and the Intrique cause a bus just drives around willy nilly and that's It.. you barely took anything from that experience, you don't even remember the path most likely or the places you visited unless you take It slowly and on your own two feet.

I'm not telling you to stop In a dungeon and smell the possibly dark and dreary roses you might find there, but that mythic + as an Edngame concept takes away from the enjoyment of running a dungeon, dungeons become irrelevant after a certain point If you've geared past It, the end. That's how It should be, that's how It was and It worked fine... blizzard are just too bloody keen on having you play one character It seems, and thinking you'll spend all of your time on that character and never heared of the concept of an alt.

[tikcol]

Are you done with the insults mate? now get off my back and go stalk someone else. Better yet go read about vanilla wow so next time you can get your act straight and you won't look like a fool pretending to be something that you never was. Even better yet, go get a job become a useful member of the society and then tell us about that. Ofc Im sure your window cleaning carreer won't impress but judging from your posts you are not capable of much better.

You're still behaving like a child. All this because I caught you on your bullshit.

[RuneDK]

i cant stop laughing when anyone claims to play vanilla/tbc and claims to not have had a problem to grind all the shit in vanilla yet minimal farm in legion is suddenly problem for him - i wonder how you farmed resist gear back then if farming ap is too much .

Um, most people who played Vanilla were 15-22 year olds with a lot of time on their hands....It's now 13 years later and life changes. We all have jobs and families we need to deal with.

[Shostradamus]

We were younger with a lot less responsibilities.

The game now is all of a sudden almost as grindy as tbc was (vanilla was still worse) while all the expansions between now and tbc kept catering towards an aging population with less time to give like me. It's a very jarring change despite the game being the best it's been in years.

Nailed it. Completely agree.

[RuneDK]

yes but that is the players fault, not the game designers

A good developer adjusts to their playerbase. The only reason Legion is the end of the spectrum is because everyone complained about wod having nothing to do(and rightfully so on people bitching about that). Blizzard still ends up going to one end of the spectrum to the other. There is either too much or too little. They need to adjust and go somewhere in the middle. WotLK is a fan favorite expansion, a lot of it has to to with the access to various kinds of content. There was enough stuff in the world to keep it from being boring outside of raids, but none of it felt like you had to do it to keep up. Fast forward to Legion, and it's the opposite...there's a lot to do out of raid...but if people don't do it they feel forced or they'll be behind. Yes that is on the player for that, but it is as much on Blizzard for creating a system like the legendary/ap systems. At least for people who care about raiding and numbers.

[HeiAggra]

A good developer adjusts to their playerbase. The only reason Legion is the end of the spectrum is because everyone complained about wod having nothing to do(and rightfully so on people bitching about that). Blizzard still ends up going to one end of the spectrum to the other. There is either too much or too little. They need to adjust and go somewhere in the middle. WotLK is a fan favorite expansion, a lot of it has to to with the access to various kinds of content. There was enough stuff in the world to keep it from being boring outside of raids, but none of it felt like you had to do it to keep up. Fast forward to Legion, and it's the opposite...there's a lot to do out of raid...but if people don't do it they feel forced or they'll be behind. Yes that is on the player for that, but it is as much on Blizzard for creating a system like the legendary/ap systems. At least for people who care about raiding and numbers.

What did you had outside in the world to do that you dont have now?

[mindpsyche]

Well I have returned after several years and have less time owing to my job, wife and kid

However, I am enjoying every moment of this as this is my escape from the real world. I game to take my mind off work and other pressure and WoW is doing a good job of it. Also, I don't care about which is the latest dungeon / raid to clear as I''m more focused on my character at the level I'm at and enjoying the content designed for my level (currently 96). I'm sure if I had to think of all the work necessary to take my character to 110 900+ item level, I'd go bonkers as well but I'm not doing that.

Also, this being my first character in Draenor, I don't have draenor flying but I'm not complaining, I'm just questing like I used to back in Vanilla and enjoying the new zones, mobs and my character is just leveling easily.

My advice to you is simple, you're not in a race, enjoy the game and enjoy the little things in the game. There is always a ton of shit to do even with all the gating.

The best reward of grinding and patiently working towards something is not the end goal but actually putting in the effort, not just in game but also real life

[RuneDK]

What did you had outside in the world to do that you dont have now?

I think you missed the point, it's more of the stuff outside of raids feels mandatory(it's not but for a raider it feels that way). gotta get a weekly m+ in for the 930 loot, gotta do the AP WQs at a minimum, have to do broken shore WQs for the legionfall resource, got to do emissary quests every three days, need to do M0's for bad luck protection....none of this is required to do...but for a raider you feel you have to do it otherwise you feel you're behind. The big thing is adjusting your mentality and that's hard for a raider. There is a lot more to do outside of raids now that we didn't have then...the difference is to a raider none of what we had during wotlk felt like I had to do it to stay relevant.

[HeiAggra]

I think you missed the point, it's more of the stuff outside of raids feels mandatory(it's not but for a raider it feels that way). gotta get a weekly m+ in for the 930 loot, gotta do the AP WQs at a minimum, have to do broken shore WQs for the legionfall resource, got to do emissary quests every three days, need to do M0's for bad luck protection....none of this is required to do...but for a raider you feel you have to do it otherwise you feel you're behind. The big thing is adjusting your mentality and that's hard for a raider. There is a lot more to do outside of raids now that we didn't have then...the difference is to a raider none of what we had during wotlk felt like I had to do it to stay relevant.

See you just said it! It's NOT MANDATORY. You said you yourself.
I pay to play a game so i do all that. Some ppl don't and it's not the end of the world.
In Wrath you had daillies that was it.
Legion you have toons of stuff to do, pick whatever you like.

[RuneDK]

See you just said it! It's NOT MANDATORY. You said you yourself.
I pay to play a game so i do all that. Some ppl don't and it's not the end of the world.
In Wrath you had daillies that was it.
Legion you have toons of stuff to do, pick whatever you like.

Yes, it's not mandatory....but if you like raiding it may as well be. Get all the shit legendaries....your dps will be noticeably lower than an equally skilled/geared player who got bis legendaries. Which pushes people to feel like that have to do shit. It's not mandatory at all...but if you don't do it you feel behind thus making it feel mandatory to raiders....again it isn't but the mind of a raider is i need to be up to snuff on everything.

[MasterHamster]

I think you missed the point, it's more of the stuff outside of raids feels mandatory(it's not but for a raider it feels that way). gotta get a weekly m+ in for the 930 loot, gotta do the AP WQs at a minimum, have to do broken shore WQs for the legionfall resource, got to do emissary quests every three days, need to do M0's for bad luck protection....none of this is required to do...but for a raider you feel you have to do it otherwise you feel you're behind. The big thing is adjusting your mentality and that's hard for a raider. There is a lot more to do outside of raids now that we didn't have then...the difference is to a raider none of what we had during wotlk felt like I had to do it to stay relevant.

And explain why is it is a bad thing you have these things to do? You know why these things are "mandatory" (a term I absolutely despise in this topic)? It's because they are REWARDING and thus RELEVANT.

These things we call mandatory didn't really exist during WoD and guess what, not having these repeatable, sometimes boring but rewarding tasks outside of raids is ESSENTIAL to keep players occupied outside of raids

For the game as a whole, it's a million times better that people bitch about having these "mandatory chores" to do, than to not have them at all, because we've already witnessed what happens when they're removed from the game. During WoD, Blizzard tried to design the game around;

The players who hate 'chores' and non-raid content that rewards player power,
and
The players that can't adjust their expectations and put limits on themselves, and the game lost 4-5 million players as a result as you could raid heroic/mythic in single digit hours spent every week. Either learn to accept that you're leaving some AP on the map, some bosses unkilled, and maybe even miss an emissary cache, and enjoy the game instead of making the entire batch of non-raiding content into a gigantic bucket list you "must" do every week.

Yes, I understand the feelings of being "forced" to do content to stay competitive. But Blizzard can't design the game around those who can't sleep at night because they are 1 Concordance rank below the top 5 dps in their roster.

[DarkAmbient]

The AP is so fast now that you can have a character maxed out with minimal effort in a week.

This is a blatant lie.

[HeiAggra]

And explain why is it is a bad thing you have these things to do? You know why these things are "mandatory" (a term I absolutely despise in this topic)? It's because they are REWARDING and thus RELEVANT.

These things we call mandatory didn't really exist during WoD and guess what, not having these repeatable, sometimes boring but rewarding tasks outside of raids is ESSENTIAL to keep players occupied outside of raids

For the game as a whole, it's a million times better that people bitch about having these "mandatory chores" to do, than to not have them at all, because we've already witnessed what happens when they're removed from the game. During WoD, Blizzard tried to design the game around;

The players who hate 'chores' and non-raid content that rewards player power,
and
The players that can't adjust their expectations and put limits on themselves, and the game lost 4-5 million players as a result as you could raid heroic/mythic in single digit hours spent every week. Either learn to accept that you're leaving some AP on the map, some bosses unkilled, and maybe even miss an emissary cache, and enjoy the game instead of making the entire batch of non-raiding content into a gigantic bucket list you "must" do every week.

Yes, I understand the feelings of being "forced" to do content to stay competitive. But Blizzard can't design the game around those who can't sleep at night because they are 1 Concordance rank below the top 5 dps in their roster.

Great answer. 5 stars.
Ppl need to do what they want, what they like and what they can.
Period.

[RuneDK]

And explain why is it is a bad thing you have these things to do? You know why these things are "mandatory" (a term I absolutely despise in this topic)? It's because they are REWARDING and thus RELEVANT.

These things we call mandatory didn't really exist during WoD and guess what, not having these repeatable, sometimes boring but rewarding tasks outside of raids is ESSENTIAL to keep players occupied outside of raids

For the game as a whole, it's a million times better that people bitch about having these "mandatory chores" to do, than to not have them at all, because we've already witnessed what happens when they're removed from the game. During WoD, Blizzard tried to design the game around;

The players who hate 'chores' and non-raid content that rewards player power,
and
The players that can't adjust their expectations and put limits on themselves, and the game lost 4-5 million players as a result as you could raid heroic/mythic in single digit hours spent every week. Either learn to accept that you're leaving some AP on the map, some bosses unkilled, and maybe even miss an emissary cache, and enjoy the game instead of making the entire batch of non-raiding content into a gigantic bucket list you "must" do every week.

Yes, I understand the feelings of being "forced" to do content to stay competitive. But Blizzard can't design the game around those who can't sleep at night because they are 1 Concordance rank below the top 5 dps in their roster.

I dont disagree with anything you're saying. Once I personally stopped the mentality of I need to do all this shit I myself started enjoying the game more and started playing other stuff. Raiders outside of the top 100, need to do the same and then people will probably stop bitching. The only problem, and it's not even a problem really, is I don't play my alts which prior to this expansion I loved to do. The only thing I honestly hate about this expansion is the legendary system...They've made the AP part much easier now(1000 resources for rank 40 AK, hell yes!) So getting alts concordance is like a week of some effort...the legendary system though...that just sucks.

[Otaka]

i cant stop laughing when anyone claims to play vanilla/tbc and claims to not have had a problem to grind all the shit in vanilla yet minimal farm in legion is suddenly problem for him - i wonder how you farmed resist gear back then if farming ap is too much .

Except you dont even know what you are talking about... in vanilla/tbc you had no timegating, you didnt need to wait 1 day or a week to be able to do something as a casual player.
You talk about resist gear? guess what, ONLY raiders needed to worry about that... and most people were not raiders. The OP doesnt seem to be either.

Whats wrong with you? you really think people needed resist gear while leveling and doing max level pvp or dungeons? no, you never needed to do that...

You are laughing by being clueless, im afraid.

[Osmeric]

Legendaries are the only really serious grind now.

[Cassidin]

yes but that is the players fault, not the game designers

Totally agree - but my comment was in response to an implication (at least that's what I inferred - I may have been incorrect) that "If you could do it then, you can do it now. I doubt you really did farm back in Vanilla/TBC or you would be doing it still".

As I say - I may have inferred that when it wasn't implied - but that's what I got from it. It is also very true what others have said that there simply isnt the need to farm like you did in Vanilla/TBC. I never raided in Vanilla - I only got to 60 a couple of months before TBC came out and I think I was still farming gold for my epic mount for some time! However, I remember a lot of farming for items in TBC, not to mention the attunments required to get anything done. These arent needed now either.

I returned to the game not long ago after giving up at the end of WOD, must say it didnt take me long to get back in. I don't raid atm (apart from LFR) but thats just down to choice and time requirements - not any lack of catchup mechanisms.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no difference in farming for hours now and then.

Time is always coming, and it is always constant. A matter of perspective.
But every person got exactly as much time now as they did 11 years ago, 24 hours a day.

And actually in your perspective I got more time now than 11 years ago.

You may have - but many people (particularly those what were in their early teens when the game was new) do not have as much time.

Clearly time itself is the same as it was then yes, but the amount of FREE time people have usually decreases as they get more responsibilities. If that isnt the case for you - congratulations!