BDK "cheesable" mechanics

[Deleted]

Lol Bloodrinker not a common talent??? Why would you ever take anything else? Bloodrinker is better in AoE and ST fights: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ght&spec=Blood click on any one and you will see that blooddrinker is taken in about 90% of scenarios. I would argue that any fight outside of fallen avatar that anyone taking a different talent is probably making a mistake. The only reason it MIGHT be worthwhile on avatar is for extra RP for more DS because of how hard avatar and maiden hit.

Because if you went and read all the post, we conclude that in reality is not has simple has your putting, is good depending on fight and situation. For tomb of sargeras example the basis is most of the fight have low to no adds and high mobility, their all single target, for that purpose makes BD shine given it has higher out put. There is still the fact of healing potential value, it is higher then the other but it might come into over healing, but it does not contribute for soul drinker but it's potential dps and healing value in single target trumps that, this given current situations again. The other part of discussion was because of the devaluation of DK dps during MT and boost during OT, which from your post you probably didn't read.

This means that in mythic+ has an example, situations where you are MT constantly, in tyrannical you will prefer BD for the bosses and DPS push, in fortifing your gooing favor HS talent because it is rare to have less then 2 trash and cleaving is favored more.In addition your lack of dps during the run is explained by the fact that your currently missing the 20% damage from red thirst talent given our mechanics. Also dungeons/bosses that require more moving will also penalizing.

So to put it bluntly to you no, BD is picked 90% of the time given the current conditions of the raid, not because it is the best...., in mythic raiding it will heavily favor one or another depending of the fight, that's what we were discussing and what i was arguing is that BD value is not has higher has it looks or seems.
You had the conversation in front of you, i beg the question, did you bother to read it?

[Tehr]

I would still argue that Blooddrinker is more effective than Heartbreaker even in M+, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that between trash packs Heartbreaker is not benefiting you at all, but Blooddrinker's cooldown is still continuing. I think that there is never a situation where Heartbreaker is superior to Blooddrinker except in a hypothetical scenario where you have the Unholy legendary helm and are in a constant 5-target cleave situation, which does not exist.

[Deleted]

I would still argue that Blooddrinker is more effective than Heartbreaker even in M+, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that between trash packs Heartbreaker is not benefiting you at all, but Blooddrinker's cooldown is still continuing. I think that there is never a situation where Heartbreaker is superior to Blooddrinker except in a hypothetical scenario where you have the Unholy legendary helm and are in a constant 5-target cleave situation, which does not exist.

Well, i don't agree, on the mistress log's, it was shown that the lines becomes blurred between both the more adds you throw in the mix, considering that, no, in mythics is the other way around trash pack's of less then 1 or 2 are rare, and cleaving is important, fortified comes to mind, teeming second, you have fairly a large amount of targets that bloodrinker only power becomes DPS, but in a five man team the dps is shouldered heavily by your dpsers, plus your missing that extra ~25 less from being in MT, that all makes a difference in the long run.

The only situation i would consider BD is when ST is more important, tyranical comes to mind, their the dps and healing from BD shines, but i also noted that on adds, even not being fortified, necrotic week, BD felt weak barely holding it's ground, i am not seeing justification for it in fortified or teeming.

To mee it more looks like one is a AoE talent, the other is ST target, edging on cleave fight's, but mythics in some weeks is all about the trash not the bosses.

[Jastall]

Or the fact that all 9 Guilds that have killed Mythic KJ have all used double druid. Even after nerfs, they are still number 1 tank by a LONG way.

https://www.wowprogress.com

To be fair, that also has to do with the fact that dual Stampeding Roars are extremely powerful, close to essential sometimes, in that fight while a BDK's possible utility for mass gripping adds is rendered moot if you stack like Method does before the intermission happens.

[Tehr]

If Blooddrinker and Heartbreaker provide equal healing, and Blooddrinker does approximately 400% increased damage over Heartbreaker, mathematically Blooddrinker is always going to be superior.

Here is a guide written by Troxism; if you check the talents section, he says that you take Blooddrinker in all cases.

Here is the FinalBoss episode with Thorlefulz and Korumo; as you probably know, Thorlefulz is the #1 BDK in the world for Mythic+ dungeons, and both he and Korumo describe it as "the only option" in that tier of talents. Since half of the M+ weeks are Fortified, and he thinks it's the only option, I think we can conclude that it's better even in high-AoE scenarios.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, that also has to do with the fact that dual Stampeding Roars are extremely powerful, close to essential sometimes, in that fight while a BDK's possible utility for mass gripping adds is rendered moot if you stack like Method does before the intermission happens.

Also, Bristling Fur/Ironfur trivializes Felclaws even more than Rune Tap and Vampiric Blood do, and additionally you don't have to move Kil'jaeden at all for the Singularity knockback since you can just use Skull Bash to prevent yourself from getting knocked off the platform.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

HAHAHA holy shit nice one, specing into SD HAHAHA

Oh wait U serious ?



Sure, that's why 100% of guilds are using double bears on KJ. Cause BDK are indeed the best.

The ammount of stupid facts you throw in this thread is quite remarquable.

And don't get me wrong here. BDK are currently strong. But still clearly behind bear/monk in raids. Where they shine is MM+

He is 100 percent correct though. You are projecting other problems on to what he said. The fel claw mechanic is best handled by a Blood DK, because as long as you survive you will heal yourself to full in the next global. Store max RP and you'll have enough for a death strike after every one even though you have two globals between each.
That is an effective 100 percent reduction and no other tank can come close to that level of mitigation.

However, they are not as strong as monk and bears for other mechanics, and that is why they are weaker over all.

[Deleted]

If Blooddrinker and Heartbreaker provide equal healing, and Blooddrinker does approximately 400% increased damage over Heartbreaker, mathematically Blooddrinker is always going to be superior.

Here is a guide written by Troxism; if you check the talents section, he says that you take Blooddrinker in all cases.

Here is the FinalBoss episode with Thorlefulz and Korumo; as you probably know, Thorlefulz is the #1 BDK in the world for Mythic+ dungeons, and both he and Korumo describe it as "the only option" in that tier of talents. Since half of the M+ weeks are Fortified, and he thinks it's the only option, I think we can conclude that it's better even in high-AoE scenarios.

- - - Updated - - -



Also, Bristling Fur/Ironfur trivializes Felclaws even more than Rune Tap and Vampiric Blood do, and additionally you don't have to move Kil'jaeden at all for the Singularity knockback since you can just use Skull Bash to prevent yourself from getting knocked off the platform.

Ah yes, 1:44:00, "What do you spec for raids" then they discussed the first line, well sort off between BW and BD, also in 2:09:00 they keep talking about raiding scene, and funny enough one just validated that our DPS is less then the other tanks... also they never said that HS was better or worst then BD, they mentioned that it was nerfed and BD was buffed, also looking at it, their though process was from a raid perspective, putting single target ahead, possobly they already knew how most fight would shape up from testing, not wanting to put words in their mouth, but it felt more of raid boss tanking conversation, the setting is important, i don't think their talking of mythic+ but of the upcoming changes to talents for the raiding scene.

What you guys showed was inconclusive for multiple target's, and dominant for single. If you want to say it's the best it's on you, but i remain unconvinced, what the data showed a few pages back is the more targets the more HS value, which is normal starting low and moving up, on cleaving it closes up on BD, and 2/3+ it might or entirely surpass, but i will test on a fortified/teeming week if i manage time.

[Marrilaife]

Ok here we go, the post I replied to was talking about HC Maiden yes and was commenting on a Brewmaster doing 650k sustained. So here is one of my logs of HC maiden with me playing blood dk.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=rankings

As you can see both my DK and the Bear did more than 650k.

Well the problem in methodology is:
1. It's maiden. Your dps is fairly related to how good is the group on your side with picking orbs and the rng behind them.
2. You're comparing against a druid on a ST fight. Druids only shine when they can abuse thrash spam with luffa + elize + 3 thrash relics + incarn, so generally aoe fights, like Tich / Aluriel in NH, and in TOS except Host there isn't really any aoe padlord fight (on Harjatan the adds are too spread usually and on Mistress they die too fast).

[Tehr]

Ah yes, 1:44:00, "What do you spec for raids" then they discussed the first line, well sort off between BW and BD, also in 2:09:00 they keep talking about raiding scene, and funny enough one just validated that our DPS is less then the other tanks... also they never said that HS was better or worst then BD, they mentioned that it was nerfed and BD was buffed, also looking at it, their though process was from a raid perspective, putting single target ahead, possobly they already knew how most fight would shape up from testing, not wanting to put words in their mouth, but it felt more of raid boss tanking conversation, the setting is important, i don't think their talking of mythic+ but of the upcoming changes to talents for the raiding scene.

What you guys showed was inconclusive for multiple target's, and dominant for single. If you want to say it's the best it's on you, but i remain unconvinced, what the data showed a few pages back is the more targets the more HS value, which is normal starting low and moving up, on cleaving it closes up on BD, and 2/3+ it might or entirely surpass, but i will test on a fortified/teeming week if i manage time.

The changes in 7.2.5 didn't affect our T1 talents except the buff to Death Strike damage slightly increases the damage output of Heartbreaker (but it is still FAR behind Blooddrinker on damage), and you can see from Thorlefulz's videos that he takes Blooddrinker always.

On Teeming weeks and on certain dungeons, like Halls of Valor, Lower Kara, or similar, I can see that Heartbreaker might pull ahead if all you care about is a tiny increase to survival; however, Blooddrinker would still be a much higher DPS choice, and tank DPS is not irrelevant.

I want to reiterate probably the most important argument, however: if Blooddrinker and Heartbreaker provide equal or otherwise similar healing in AoE, and Blooddrinker does much more damage than Heartbreaker in AoE, that means that - objectively and mathematically - Blooddrinker is superior in AoE.

[Deleted]

Right, I guess I didn't fully explain "cheese" in my post and I apologize for that. Coming from a Warrior Tank, to me "cheese" is any mechanic that would typically require an external cooldown but a BDK can use his own CDs to cover the mechanic. Because through the past two expansions the warriors have been the most reliant on other external CDs.

I feel like there are more things that can be spell reflected atm then there are things where AMS does something amazing. though i might be biased and include to much 5 man stuff. They also did a good job of making stuff blockable in ToS.

I do with they made AMS not work on goroth when they made spell reflect not work anymore lol. that was a fun week.

[Deleted]

The changes in 7.2.5 didn't affect our T1 talents except the buff to Death Strike damage slightly increases the damage output of Heartbreaker (but it is still FAR behind Blooddrinker on damage), and you can see from Thorlefulz's videos that he takes Blooddrinker always.

On Teeming weeks and on certain dungeons, like Halls of Valor, Lower Kara, or similar, I can see that Heartbreaker might pull ahead if all you care about is a tiny increase to survival; however, Blooddrinker would still be a much higher DPS choice, and tank DPS is not irrelevant.

I want to reiterate probably the most important argument, however: if Blooddrinker and Heartbreaker provide equal or otherwise similar healing in AoE, and Blooddrinker does much more damage than Heartbreaker in AoE, that means that - objectively and mathematically - Blooddrinker is superior in AoE.

Like i said, the data provided showed different results, it validated single target and i have to decline on the Aoe part, the math you pointed out like, me and spritz(apologies if i spelled wrong brother) was giving different values and we both concluded different to you, the mistress log one and that's just one where he was hitting 2 targets (fine 1.88 if you wish to be picky, although in math looking at this you don't say 1.88 you round up to 2 cause there aint no 1.88 targets its either one or 2 and you attribute that has error margin and or variance ), it was already closing the gap, considering extra target's the question isn't that BD is better, it's what is the break point from when HS becomes superior.

It's curious your so adamant on pushing this has the best talent, has in previous threads, you have stated that you should give a comprehensive response for those trying to learn the class, my thought process is that. This talent has a break in situation of x amount of adds, it is pointing that when you have scenery of large amounts of constant targets it will come on top, the other favors more single targets and DPS.

Has for the mythic argument, funny thing is the more you climb, the more survival is an issue, tyrannical hits the tank fairly hard, fortified is also deadly, combine one of those 2 with one that affects healing or heavily pressure healing and you have a perfect storm for your survival. And yes tank dps matters, it was one of the things i pointed before on this post, but in the mythic situation your going to be behind the other tanks, with or with out BD, so your survival has to trump more things, like i said i am seeing in bolster/tyrannical it to be a good talent given it's DPS potential. Also lets not mix things, BD healing is theoretical and a HOT, HOT tend to always net has over healing, their healing prevent's damage, if your using at half health like on the fat boss enterview the DK is dead due to lack of inate DR, that leads it to be used in situations close to full health, DS is more reactive to damage and heals upfront(ignoring the sheild) plus it buffs your HP buffer against spiky damage.

But it really does not matter, if you wish to use in AoE fight's use it. I see it in a different way.

One the of things i am looking for, is for example to see the world competition for mythic clears to see the tank line ups of the best of the best, and see why and what they choose and see first hands how it works.Now that will be an interesting experiment.

[Deleted]

...

Have you read the comment from Trox guide? He has already done the math for HB vs BD:

More strictly: If you are ALWAYS hitting 5 targets with your HS (ie you have 100% DnD uptime which is impossible) and there are always 5+ enemies to hit, yes post hotfix Heartbreaker would win by a small amount (about 5% more DPS and about 10-50% more healing although that depends HEAVILY on DS size ie damage intake). But the moment some targets die/anytime you aren’t hitting 5 targets/anytime DnD isn’t down (which will always happen sometimes even if you have enough targets), Blooddrinker skyrockets ahead. Even 4 target sustained 100% uptime DnD aoe puts it comfortably ahead on damage and about break even on survival (again heavily depends on exact damage intake, ie DS size). Which basically means in all realistic situations Blooddrinker is always better (as long as you cast it on CD more or less) as you can’t maintain 100% DnD uptime and even in aoe situations you are never actually hitting 4-5+ targets the entire duration of combat (mobs die off, or adds come in waves, ect).

The dmg buff and t20 4p proably shift this a bit more to HB, but even in M+ you cant always hit 4-5 Targets. The avg. amount of Targets hit by HS is extremly important to decide its power. If the fight with the most adds only results in 1.88 Targets hits this only Proofs the Point trox is making. You tend to overestime the avg amount of Targets.

Also Keep in mind in the log he only casted 11 out of 16 possible Blooddrinkers, which is very ineffective.

Ive just picked a random m+ log, might be interesting to check more of them, here is a lvl 23 arcway fortified key:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4

Avg. Target hit is only 1.55

[Deleted]

Have you read the comment from Trox guide? He has already done the math for HB vs BD:



The dmg buff and t20 4p proably shift this a bit more to HB, but even in M+ you cant always hit 4-5 Targets. The avg. amount of Targets hit by HS is extremly important to decide its power. If the fight with the most adds only results in 1.88 Targets hits this only Proofs the Point trox is making. You tend to overestime the avg amount of Targets.

Also Keep in mind in the log he only casted 11 out of 16 possible Blooddrinkers, which is very ineffective.

Ive just picked a random m+ log, might be interesting to check more of them, here is a lvl 23 arcway fortified key:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=4

Avg. Target hit is only 1.55

Arcway is a good balance of adds, their is a few corridors where you only have 1 to 2 adds, and the number of big pack is a lot more uncommon, also some of the pulls don't play to cleave because it's dangerous, also depends how cautions the groups is going, bolster forces to do it one group at the time, necrotic forces kiting(well i do it at least but it's not proof other's do).

But if you head for darkheart thicket/valor halls/ black hold etc the number of adds go up, but it still depends on the group and whats up, also the higher the key, kiting can become relevant, passed my week dungeons kitting due t necrotic because it's simply easier on the healer and i am doing it very casually with 3 affixes. Court stars is another where its more common pulling 1/2 adds, i think upper kara fals on that category, (lower kara depends on the route, but in general it has big packs).

[Deleted]

Arcway is a good balance of adds, their is a few corridors where you only have 1 to 2 adds, and the number of big pack is a lot more uncommon, also some of the pulls don't play to cleave because it's dangerous, also depends how cautions the groups is going, bolster forces to do it one group at the time, necrotic forces kiting(well i do it at least but it's not proof other's do).

But if you head for darkheart thicket/valor halls/ black hold etc the number of adds go up, but it still depends on the group and whats up, also the higher the key, kiting can become relevant, passed my week dungeons kitting due t necrotic because it's simply easier on the healer and i am doing it very casually with 3 affixes. Court stars is another where its more common pulling 1/2 adds, i think upper kara fals on that category, (lower kara depends on the route, but in general it has big packs).

BRH LVL 21: 1,99 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=3

DHT 22: 1,54 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=1

HOV 22: 1,38 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=2

In lower keys the numbers seem to be even lower, checked some +15 keys, but seems obv because trash dies even faster.

Even in Dungeons with a lot of trash, the numbers dont go up significantly. there are probably some packs / short aoe fights where HB outperfroms BD but over the Course of a complete dungeion it always performs worse than BD.

[Deleted]

BRH LVL 21: 1,99 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=3

DHT 22: 1,54 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=1

HOV 22: 1,38 Targets
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=2

In lower keys the numbers seem to be even lower, checked some +15 keys, but seems obv because trash dies even faster.

Even in Dungeons with a lot of trash, the numbers dont go up significantly. there are probably some packs / short aoe fights where HB outperfroms BD but over the Course of a complete dungeion it always performs worse than BD.

Yes possibly because of that that you see the values moving to those numbers, has adds die, the effective targets dope, i was a reading the trox guide, i had previously read but had missed the 3 jun update, there's a few things of interest.

Now this what he says:

"More strictly: If you are ALWAYS hitting 5 targets with your HS (ie you have 100% DnD uptime which is impossible) and there are always 5+ enemies to hit, yes post hotfix Heartbreaker would win by a small amount (about 5% more DPS and about 10-50% more healing although that depends HEAVILY on DS size ie damage intake). But the moment some targets die/anytime you aren’t hitting 5 targets/anytime DnD isn’t down (which will always happen sometimes even if you have enough targets), Blooddrinker skyrockets ahead. Even 4 target sustained 100% uptime DnD aoe puts it comfortably ahead on damage and about break even on survival (again heavily depends on exact damage intake, ie DS size). Which basically means in all realistic situations Blooddrinker is always better (as long as you cast it on CD more or less) as you can’t maintain 100% DnD uptime and even in aoe situations you are never actually hitting 4-5+ targets the entire duration of combat (mobs die off, or adds come in waves, ect)."

Few points, BD is always a DPS win. HS is a survival win in 4 more targets (possibly the break point is 3), but the 4 or more targets have to consistently be alive to this be realistic in 5 :"about 5% more DPS and about 10-50% more healing although that depends HEAVILY on DS".

Considering environment it's not always possible to see this happening, but note that he points out that given the right conditions HS can move ahead of of BD in both DPS and survival. So he just validated that side of what i was saying, given right situation HS will be ahead, the point i had completely forgotten and made me rethink for teeming was the AoE cleave cap.

The other interesting bit is that it seems that DPS is being given more value then survival, he says that even at 4 is a survival gain(potential again) and a dps loss, the way it explain's it seem's to point that line of thinking, where i come from a age where the though of a tank dps was ignored, it seems dps from the tank gained a lot more traction, guess the role i love is truly turning into a glorified DPS... Anyway, food for thought that is for sure.

[Deleted]

It gets hard for me to follow your Points. The situations you are describing are highly theoretical and do not exist in reality, Even in trash heavy dungeons we are far away from an avg. of 3 Targets. The important part is this:

Which basically means in all realistic situations Blooddrinker is always better (as long as you cast it on CD more or less) as you can’t maintain 100% DnD uptime and even in aoe situations you are never actually hitting 4-5+ targets the entire duration of combat (mobs die off, or adds come in waves, ect)."

[Deleted]

It gets hard for me to follow your Points. The situations you are describing are highly theoretical and do not exist in reality, Even in trash heavy dungeons we are far away from an avg. of 3 Targets. The important part is this:

Yeah, well i tend to overthink, it's also my job to overthink, hehe. But yes, from start to finish every position i gave was theoretical, it's how you build and understand something and it's limit's for it to be accepted, you theorize circumstances even the extreme, it's how you test, you test it by proving it and trying to disprove it, ofc they have to be something between the realm of sanity so i would not consider impossible, a fight with constant adds or tough dps requirement's it's not impossible, it might happen you dunno, there were examples in the past.

Anyway, i loved discussing with you guys, it gave me some food for thought for months to test, yeah months, i don't have much time . Overall i enjoy class, but i do not enjoy the overall role direction that blizz is taking, guess it's evolution...

[Spryte]

Well the problem in methodology is:
1. It's maiden. Your dps is fairly related to how good is the group on your side with picking orbs and the rng behind them.
2. You're comparing against a druid on a ST fight. Druids only shine when they can abuse thrash spam with luffa + elize + 3 thrash relics + incarn, so generally aoe fights, like Tich / Aluriel in NH, and in TOS except Host there isn't really any aoe padlord fight (on Harjatan the adds are too spread usually and on Mistress they die too fast).

You are reading out of context, I was referring to post commenting on a BREWMASTER dps on MAIDEN.

[Tehr]

The other interesting bit is that it seems that DPS is being given more value then survival, he says that even at 4 is a survival gain(potential again) and a dps loss, the way it explain's it seem's to point that line of thinking, where i come from a age where the though of a tank dps was ignored, it seems dps from the tank gained a lot more traction, guess the role i love is truly turning into a glorified DPS... Anyway, food for thought that is for sure.

When doing any high level content where the damage requirements are not trivial (e.g. where you can't be carrying anyone), Tank DPS matters. Last night my guild had an 8% wipe on Mistress Sassz'ine at the enrage (granted we had 2 DPS dead for 2 minutes and several deaths in the 45 seconds before enrage), but I'm now looking at ways I can increase my own damage by ~10% to help beat the damage check (also granted that the likely cause of low DPS is inefficient usage of the Bufferfish, but we all need to do our part).

The way I look at it, a tank's #1 job is to stay alive, #2 job is to allow others to maximize their damage (by positioning and by maintaining aggro), and #3 is to maximize their own damage. If you're surviving well enough while also not causing your healer undue stress then you should focus on damage.

[Panetale]

Blooddrinker is used in 75% of Mythic Sisters of the Moon logs. Sisters of the Moon, Mythic, 95th percentile, all tanks, rated on damage:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...050&dataset=95
BDK Talents, same data:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...ntinfo=Talents


Heartbreaker is a noob trap talent almost as much as Bloodworms are. Blooddrinker beats Heartbreaker even in constant 5-target cleave (which is impossible anyway since you can't have 100% uptime on DnD) in all metrics, as Tojara said.

Let's look at the #1 Mythic Mistress Sassz'ine logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...9&type=summary

In this fight, for perspective, Lynathel got rank 1 DPS and rank 2 Healing as a BDK, so the logs aren't skewed in favor of either DPS or Healing.

If Lynathel had used Heartbreaker, he would have gained 286 additional RP from Heartbreaker, which equates to 8 extra Death Strikes, assuming he had Gravewarden and Ossuary up for every one. Eight additional Death Strikes would have been 8.18m additional damage, using his averages, whereas Blooddrinker did 25.90m damage. Now for healing, those 8 additional Death Strikes would have healed him for an additional 16.12m, whereas Blooddrinker healed him for 16.84m. So nearly equal healing from Blooddrinker and Heartbreaker, but over 3x the damage, and that's ignoring the fact that he only cast 11 Blooddrinkers in the fight out of a maximum of 16. If he had cast all 16, he would have dealt 37.67m damage and healed for 24.49m, which is 4.5x damage and 1.5x healing, respectively.

There are the data. Heartbreaker isn't terrible if the player is not comfortable with Blooddrinker, by all means, but Blooddrinker is definitely the best talent to take.

I took his place as #1, the same pattern can be seen here. Can approve BD > else.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1Zk6M#fight=13