Russia: Americans Now Support Containment over Cooperation

[Crispin]

That vid is 90% commentator, 5% dead air, and 5% some Russian saying something. And all that commentary is critiquing an absolute fact: Russia could annihilate the US if it chose to launch a first strike. You would not have to look hard to find some pundit in the US saying similar things, and it is a fact the US could destroy Russia just as well. I am pretty old...and I lived through a significant period of time were we had these guns pointed at each other's heads. Why on earth are so many liberals trying to restart the cold war? I just don't get it.

There's an American goverment owned news channel that boasts about beeing able to annihilate Russia? Got a link?

And I also remember the Cold war, and Russian "fishing boats" that could be seen from the beach a few kilometers from my home, and I still do not think that Russia in it's current form can be trusted whatsoever. But I guess some people would rather be lied to and deceived if it Means that can dodge a conflict.

[jugzilla]

Um, no. We live like shit because we tried to be friends with USA in 1991, tried "democracy" and "free market", which were all big lies. Now Russia acts in Russia's interests, you go along with it or you get the fuck out of the way. Neither American nor European interests mean shit if they don't want to deal to mutual benefit like Asia.

I have to disagree with you on this the US being in a constant state of war idea. We had given up on the "civilized world," after WW1, and we were pretty content to just stick to own hemisphere. It's really complicated, but most of the wars you are likely going to complain about were proxy wars between Capitalism and Communism with Russia being heavily involved as well.

1991-1994 There really was a sense of cooperation between the US and Russia. There was even a moment were Russia opened up it's archives to western intellectuals. I remember watching on C-Span in the 90s, an American author who wrote a book on the Berlin wall. The Russians actually let her copy the communiques between Kruschev and Ulbicht. The GDR wanted the Berlin wall to prevent people from leaving their area, and Kruschev actually told them to fix the economy instead of building the wall, as the wall would create political problems.

From 91-94 there was also a lot of military tech cooperation. The US actually bought and jointly developed tech from Yakovlev that was used to develop the F35. The US also opened it's doors to Russian's and gave them unprecedented access to our aircraft manufacturing plants. It wasn't in the news, but I have family members that work for one of the major jet engine producers here, and they were shocked at the amount of access the Russians were given.

I still hold onto that romantic notion if people like Americans and Russians can get along, there is nothing that can stop mankind's progress. Seeing all that disrupted by old SJW's to distract from their failed policies...infuriates me.

There's an American goverment owned news channel that boasts about beeing able to annihilate Russia? Got a link?

And I also remember the Cold war, and Russian "fishing boats" that could be seen from the beach a few kilometers from my home, and I still do not think that Russia in it's current form can be trusted whatsoever. But I guess some people would rather be lied to and deceived if it Means that can dodge a conflict.

I don't even have to search for a link for a government news outlet...this is US policy. It is called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. Do you need me to send you a link to prove the internet exists too?

Why are you so hung up on trust? You are lucky if you can even trust your wife, let alone a foreign Nation.

[Machismo]

Who "they"? All the straight people who feel disgusted, myself and literally everyone I know included? Do you have any real examples?

Exactly. America has only seen several years it its entire existence without waging wars against some power or state that couldn't retaliate. Without wars that distract the populace and keep the wheels of war economy spinning, that state will quickly fall apart.


US doesn't fight "every now and then", it's been at war for its entire history almost non-stop, without any threat to itself. Only aggression. Russia, on another hand, has always been subject to invasions and attacks, mostly from the West, since Livonian and Teutonic knights' raids, Polish occupation, Napoleonic wars, WW2... It's amazing how much patience and benevolence Russia's been demonstrating throughout its history, when it should've pillaged the invaders' homes in return, burnt them down, exterminated the population and salted the ground. Now we have to pay for our ancestors' flirting with wolves.

Um, no. We live like shit because we tried to be friends with USA in 1991, tried "democracy" and "free market", which were all big lies. Now Russia acts in Russia's interests, you go along with it or you get the fuck out of the way. Neither American nor European interests mean shit if they don't want to deal to mutual benefit like Asia.

As far as my personal experience goes, there's nothing more radical and intolerant than a liberal you had the misfortune to disagree with.

You are disgusted by gay people? Good to know.

Maybe it's their desire to shut down websites of political rivals, or to silence gay people and their supporters. It could be their attempts to silence dissent of the administration. It could also be their control over news networks, and their violence towards political opponents.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...ld/2016/russia

You may not feel oppressed, but those other people sure as shit do. Let me guess, you want to know why you should care about the oppression of others? The answer is clear. If you don't care about the oppression of others, then you don't get to complain when it happens to you.

[Shalcker]

You may not feel oppressed, but those other people sure as shit do. Let me guess, you want to know why you should care about the oppression of others? The answer is clear. If you don't care about the oppression of others, then you don't get to complain when it happens to you.

How long were homosexual oppressed in US?

Was it some kind of authoritarian society all the time while they were, up to the point where they got their gay marriage in, what, 2012?

Should we have cheered for US system of oppression to fall entirely to free all those people suppressed by US society all this time?

Did you?

[Machismo]

How long were homosexual oppressed in US?

Was it some kind of authoritarian society all the time while they were, up to the point where they got their gay marriage in, what, 2012?

Should we have cheered for US system of oppression to fall entirely to free all those people suppressed by US society all this time?

Did you?

They were oppressed for a very long time, what's your point? Yes, it was an authoritarian society. Yes, I did support the legalization of gay marriage, and have since I learned it was illegal for gay people to get married. Consistency is a wonderful thing, don't you think?

Now, why is Russia still oppressing gay people?

[Shalcker]

They were oppressed for a very long time, what's your point? Yes, it was an authoritarian society. Yes, I did support the legalization of gay marriage, and have since I learned it was illegal for gay people to get married. Consistency is a wonderful thing, don't you think?

Do you think US is still authoritarian society then?

That should be fought against at every opportunity?

I mean, Trump just "oppressed" transgender people with his transgender ban in military, why does US still do that, can you tell me?

Then we can contrast and compare it to Russia.

[Machismo]

Do you think US is still authoritarian society then?

That should be fought against at every opportunity?

I mean, Trump just "oppressed" transgender people with his transgender ban in military, why does US still do that, can you tell me?

Then we can contrast and compare it to Russia.

Yes, they are an authoritarian society, just not as authoritarian as Russia.

Unlike you, I do not support authoritarianism and oppression.

[Shalcker]

Yes, they are an authoritarian society, just not as authoritarian as Russia.

Unlike you, I do not support authoritarianism and oppression.

But why US is still authoritarian, oppressive society?

Surely Trump isn't the cause?

You asked "Why Russia still oppresses gay people", can you tell why it happens in your own country?

[Machismo]

But why US is still authoritarian society?

You asked "Why Russia still oppresses gay people", can you tell why it happens in your own country?

It's simple, people are oppressive bigots who wish to force their beliefs onto others. I support freedom, but most people are like you, and support oppression and authoritarianism. I'll stick with freedom, thanks.

Why do you support oppression?

[Shalcker]

It's simple, people are oppressive bigots who wish to force their beliefs onto others. I support freedom, but most people are like you, and support oppression and authoritarianism. I'll stick with freedom, thanks.

And yet you wish to force your beliefs onto others? Or you don't?

Why do you support oppression?

Because unlike your "freedom" it provides better outcomes for most people rather then select "oppressed" categories. People like me, as you noted.

I prefer utilitarian approach to human happiness - having most people happy most of the time rather then striving to have everyone happy all the time - which i find nor desirable nor practically attainable.

[Machismo]

And yet you wish to force your beliefs onto others? Or you don't?

Because unlike your "freedom" it provides better outcomes for most people rather then select "oppressed" categories.

I prefer utilitarian approach to human happiness - having most people happy most of the time rather then striving to have everyone happy all the time - which i find nor desirable nor practically attainable.

Where have I shown that I wish to force my beliefs onto others. Any act of government is an act of authority. I simply want far less authority than most.

How is banning gay marriage making other people free? How does it provide a better outcome for most? Like I said, I'm going to go ahead and stick with freedom on this one, thanks.

[Shalcker]

Where have I shown that I wish to force my beliefs onto others. Any act of government is an act of authority. I simply want far less authority than most.

And I wish for more then you. Simple.

How is banning gay marriage making other people free?

Where did i say "free"? "Free" and "happy" are independent things; you can be happy without being free, and you can be free without being happy.

How does allowing gay marriage makes most people happy? Most people aren't gay, after all, and there is significant amount of traditionalists (christian or muslim, mostly) who would be unhappy if it was allowed. And there are more of those (and those who listen to them) then gays.

And as utilitarian i got to go with act that leaves most people happy. Which is not allowing gay marriage.

This calculation might or might not be different in US - from what i've seen in many states they had to get around actual opinion of people to pass it, with significant protests.

How does it provide a better outcome for most?

By following tradition, duh. By keeping current laws intact, and society not having to deal with new challenges.

Like I said, I'm going to go ahead and stick with freedom on this one, thanks.

And you're "free" to do it :P

[Machismo]

And I wish for more then you. Simple.

Where did i say "free"? "Free" and "happy" are independent things; you can be happy without being free, and you can be free without being happy.

How does allowing gay marriage makes most people happy? Most people aren't gay, after all, and there is significant amount of traditionalists (christian or muslim, mostly) who would be unhappy if it was allowed. And there are more of those (and those who listen to them) then gays.

And as utilitarian i got to go with act that leaves most people happy. Which is not allowing gay marriage.

This calculation might or might not be different in US.

By following tradition, duh. By keeping current laws intact, and society not having to deal with new challenges.

And you're "free" to do it :P

So, you would support slavery, if it made people happy? Good to know.

[Shalcker]

So, you would support slavery, if it made people happy? Good to know.

Obviously. If both slaves and owners are happy there are no problems with that.

And would you support freedom if it meant living in a ditch?

[Machismo]

Obviously. If both slaves and owners are happy there are no problems with that.

And would you support freedom if it meant living in a ditch?

No, you said if it made most people happy. Therefore, so long as the majority wanted something, you wouldn't give a shit if the slaves were happy or not.

I support a person's freedom to live how he or she sees fit, so long as he or she does not harm others. Freedom is awesome.

[Shalcker]

No, you said if it made most people happy. Therefore, so long as the majority wanted something, you wouldn't give a shit if the slaves were happy or not.

And you don't give a shit if slaves want to be free or not, or have means to live freely.

I support a person's freedom to live how he or she sees fit, so long as he or she does not harm others. Freedom is awesome.

Some people think living in a ditch is awesome as long as they are free; i do not agree.

[Machismo]

And you don't give a shit if slaves want to be free or not, or have means to live freely.

Some people think living in a ditch is awesome as long as they are free; i do not agree.

Of course I care if slaves want to be free. You are the one who wants to enslave people at the whim of the majority.

If someone wants to live in a ditch, good for them. That is a choice they are making freely.

[Shalcker]

Of course I care if slaves want to be free. You are the one who wants to enslave people at the whim of the majority.

But you don't care when people say "We don't feel oppressed at all in Russia" right in this very thread.

You're not very convincing here that you care. You look like someone who would kill slave owner and say to slaves - "You're free now, the rest isn't my problem".

If someone wants to live in a ditch, good for them. That is a choice they are making freely.

And if someone chooses to live under regime you consider authoritarian happily, that's great for them too.

[Machismo]

But you don't care when people say "We don't feel oppressed at all in Russia" right in this very thread.

You're not very convincing here that you care. You look like someone who would kill slave owner and say to slaves - "You're free now, the rest isn't my problem".

And if someone chooses to live under regime you consider authoritarian happily, that's great for them too.

It's a matter if ANYONE in Russia feels oppressed, not just the guy who supports the oppression. Now, if you can say that nobody in Russia feels oppressed, then you would have an argument. Is that the argument you want to make?

Is everyone in Russia happy with the authoritarianism and oppression? Nope.

[Shalcker]

It's a matter if ANYONE in Russia feels oppressed, not just the guy who supports the oppression. Now, if you can say that nobody in Russia feels oppressed, then you would have an argument. Is that the argument you want to make?

There is no country in the world where noone feels oppressed, so it's meaningless distinction.

You yourself confirmed that you're fine with oppression of those acting against others. How you cannot see the same thing with "people chosen to live under authoritarian regime willingly given alternatives" -> "opposition encroaches on that particular desire by trying to destroy their happy life"?

Should they or should they not suppress them? This opposition is threatening their life after all, they aren't making choice on how only opposition themselves should live...