[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Immitis]

Yeah, this is why I asked earlier in the thread if anyone had read Cap America #25 yet.

The characters name is fuckin' Barf for christs sake!!!?!!

Nice writing Nick Spencer, you've really justified your patronizing and condescending tone on Twitter and all us fanboys should just shut-up and bask in the glory of your genius!

i dont know why anyone was expecting a different kind of ending.

did you really expect marvel to spend years "rehabilitating" evil nazi captain america, did you really think marvel would even ALLOW an evil nazi captain america to remain part of the permanent canon of marvel?

hell the ENTIRE REASON this whole thing happened was the same way. a "living" cosmic cube made captain america young again and for whatever reason that altered his history and made him a nazi.

the whole story happened because of a cosmic cube, they end it with a cosmic cube.

its about the journey, not the ending.

this would be like someone complaining about peter parker becoming spider-man again after superior spider-man.

what the fuck did you think was going to happen?

[Jotaux]

evil nazi captain america

Captain America is not a Nazi. Using the logic people do to attribute him as such I could easily prove Duke Thomas is a Nazi, or even the entirety of the Justice league are Nazis. Captain America is Hydra.

[Immitis]

Captain America is not a Nazi. Using the logic people do to attribute him as such I could easily prove Duke Thomas is a Nazi, or even the entirety of the Justice league are Nazis. Captain America is Hydra.

where do you think hydra came from

[cyberglum]

i dont know why anyone was expecting a different kind of ending.

did you really expect marvel to spend years "rehabilitating" evil nazi captain america, did you really think marvel would even ALLOW an evil nazi captain america to remain part of the permanent canon of marvel?

hell the ENTIRE REASON this whole thing happened was the same way. a "living" cosmic cube made captain america young again and for whatever reason that altered his history and made him a nazi.

the whole story happened because of a cosmic cube, they end it with a cosmic cube.

its about the journey, not the ending.

this would be like someone complaining about peter parker becoming spider-man again after superior spider-man.

what the fuck did you think was going to happen?

Maybe something a little better than a deus ex machina character who can vomit-up anything he pictures in his head..?

I mean, fucking really...I don't why anyone would feel compelled to defend this rubbish.

[Jotaux]

where do you think hydra came from

Ohhh, I thought you actually read comics, sorry I should not have assumed. Hydra comes from the Brotherhood of the Spear, around the time of the third dynasty of egypt. It's Nazi affiliation came about when the Red Skull took control but Hydra Cap was eventually able to restore Hydra to its former ideals.

[Immitis]

Ohhh, I thought you actually read comics, sorry I should not have assumed. Hydra comes from the Brotherhood of the Spear, around the time of the third dynasty of egypt. It's Nazi affiliation came about when the Red Skull took control but Hydra Cap was eventually able to restore Hydra to its former ideals.

hydra will ALWAYS have connotations with nazis. it doesnt matter if they changed things and made hydra older than it originally was it will always have that connotation.

cap may not be trying to kill all the jews but there was alot more to nazis then just wanting to kill jews and gypsies

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Maybe something a little better than a deus ex machina character who can vomit-up anything he pictures in his head..?

I mean, fucking really...I don't why anyone would feel compelled to defend this rubbish.

oh so like, a deus ex object? this was ALWAYS going to be cosmic cubed away, always. like i stated, the entire ARC was deused ex'd into the universe in the first fucking place.

whether its a dude who can create cosmic cubes, or a person cosmic cubes, or an infinity stone, or a "doctor strange made a mind bubble in everyones heads and everyone forgot" or a "professor x used super mind powers and changed everyones memories" or "someone went back in time and found the beyonder and he set things back the way they were, or "turns out evil cap was a robot and good cap was frozen in outside space"


there never was a "good" ending to this story. it was ALWAYS about writing a cool story about an evil steve and showing how smart and cunning an opponent steve was and if he didnt hold back he could pretty much fuck up everyone despite being weaker than most heroes.

it be the same thing as if dc did an evil batman storyline.

[Jotaux]

hydra will ALWAYS have connotations with nazis. it doesnt matter if they changed things and made hydra older than it originally was it will always have that connotation.

cap may not be trying to kill all the jews but there was alot more to nazis then just wanting to kill jews and gypsies

Originally Hydra didn't even appear until 1965 and was simply a criminal organization headed by Arnold Brown so if you want to go by the original incarnation they would still not be Nazis. I really like comics, you should give them a try, you might enjoy them too.

[Highwhale]

I'm new to MCU (and Marvel at all) - it is possible to introduce Blade into MCU through DR.STRANGE? I love original trilogy and back in 1998 didn't even knew Blade was comic book character.

[Immitis]

Originally Hydra didn't even appear until 1965 and was simply a criminal organization headed by Arnold Brown so if you want to go by the original incarnation they would still not be Nazis. I really like comics, you should give them a try, you might enjoy them too.

this is THE most well known hydra member



you can try and sound condecending and pretend i dont read comics all you want, nothing will ever change the fact that in both real life and in the marvel universe, hydra is seen as nazis.

do you think if someone went up to spider-man and was like "hey are hydra nazis?" he would be like "no no no, theyre very different, totally not nazis anymore!"

[Stormcall]

Originally Hydra didn't even appear until 1965 and was simply a criminal organization headed by Arnold Brown so if you want to go by the original incarnation they would still not be Nazis. I really like comics, you should give them a try, you might enjoy them too.

Yes, a brief appearance that wasn't really associated with the majority of their comics history. Just like how Batman used guns in his very early appearances, and just like how Superman couldn't originally fly(he truly did LEAP tall buildings, he didn't fly over them). But, that was very, very quickly changed into the history that basically every fucking person associates with them. You know, the history of Batman not using guns, Superman being able to fly, and...yes, Hydra being a Nazi group.

So no, pretty much any COMIC reader is gonna associate Hydra with Nazis, no matter how you try to pretend otherwise.

[Immitis]

“We never even looked at it as a big reveal necessarily but more of just a fun homage to his past adventures and his past love. She's not Mary Jane Watson. She never was Mary Jane Watson. She was always this new high school character, Michelle, who we know there's an "M" in Michelle and an "M" in Mary. [laughs] So we're so clever and we thought, "Wouldn't it be neat if her initials were MJ?" And then I think it leaked that she would be playing MJ and then it became a whole headache for Zendaya to have to navigate,” Feige revealed. “It was never a big, "Oh my God, it's a big reveal!" There are big reveals in the movie. That's not one of them.”

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/07/...a-michelle-mj/

[Dhrizzle]

Are people really surprised that Marvel used a deus ex machina to restore the status quo after making a huge dramatic change? Is barfing a cosmic cube really any worse than stasis bullets, deals with the devil, time-travel to undo mistakes or Molecule Man being really grateful for an old cheeseburger?

[Gallahadd]

oh so like, a deus ex object? this was ALWAYS going to be cosmic cubed away, always. like i stated, the entire ARC was deused ex'd into the universe in the first fucking place.

I don't know why anyone thought this would end any other way than "And then they got a cosmic cube, and fixed everything". There was about a 90% chance that was going to happen from day one.

or Molecule Man being really grateful for an old cheeseburger?

That is still one of my favourite resolutions in any Marvel plotline... The Almighty God Doom, that stomped so many brutal characters, brought down by a stale cheeseburger XD.

[Jotaux]

this is THE most well known hydra member



you can try and sound condecending and pretend i dont read comics all you want, nothing will ever change the fact that in both real life and in the marvel universe, hydra is seen as nazis.

do you think if someone went up to spider-man and was like "hey are hydra nazis?" he would be like "no no no, theyre very different, totally not nazis anymore!"

I thought your argument was their original incarnation? Now its popular opinion? Keep moving those goal posts I guess. And it doesn't matter what popular opinion is, because its just plain wrong, Hydra being Nazis is like looking at modern germany and calling them Nazis. Just because you don't read comics doesn't mean you have to make it up.

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Just like how Batman used guns in his very early appearances, and just like how Superman couldn't originally fly(he truly did LEAP tall buildings, he didn't fly over them). But, that was very, very quickly changed into the history that basically every fucking person associates with them.

Yes and its been very quickly changed that Hydra dates back to the third dynasty of ancient Egypt.

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I don't know why anyone thought this would end any other way than "And then they got a cosmic cube, and fixed everything". There was about a 90% chance that was going to happen from day one.

I think the reason people thought it would end different is that Nick Spencer said that the cosmic cube wouldn't return everything to normal.

[Gallahadd]

I think the reason people thought it would end different is that Nick Spencer said that the cosmic cube wouldn't return everything to normal.

There's a lot of wiggleroom in that statement. The Cube can return Cappy to a good guy again, but leave everyone with the memories of everything that went down, leave all the injured and dead people still injured and dead. Spencer's statement is still the truth, it DIDN'T return everything to normal...

But it did make Cappy boring again.

[Immitis]

I thought your argument was their original incarnation? Now its popular opinion? Keep moving those goal posts I guess. And it doesn't matter what popular opinion is, because its just plain wrong, Hydra being Nazis is like looking at modern germany and calling them Nazis. Just because you don't read comics doesn't mean you have to make it up.

red skull
baron strucker
arnim zola

and then theres baron zemo who is also a nazi

all of the most famous members of hydra and all of captain americas most famous enemies are nazis, and now HE is hydra. and you REALLY are trying to say hydra isnt inherently tied to nazis and their ideals.

and why is it SO important to you that we make it super duper extra duper clear that a storyline about captain america becoming evil and taking over the world ISNT labelled as a nazi? ive never seen someone so fervently deny something is a nazi outside of alt right people trying to take a moral highground about getting punched in the face

[Stormcall]

Yes and its been very quickly changed that Hydra dates back to the third dynasty of ancient Egypt.

1)It took them quite a while to make that change, actually. As in, it was "revealed" in 2009, after hundreds of appearances...as a Nazi group. That's hardly a "very quick" change. For comparison, the "original" Hydra appeared in 1 issue, and was never actually mentioned again, even in the "History of Hydra".
2)Even according to Marvel's own history of Hydra, the "Hydra" of that time has nothing to do with the modern Hydra. Red Skulll and Strucker simply co-opted the name for his NAZI ORGANIZATION in WW2 which is what it has been ever since, it what everyone knows it as, thinks of it as, and the vast, vast majority of the Marvel Universe(and in turn, comic readers) ONLY know of them as a Nazi group.

Wanna see what Marvel's own description of Hydra is? Take a look at their own page on the group:http://marvel.com/universe/Hydra#axzz4pc9ccDrk
You'll note they mention Nazis and Nazi characters like Red Skull and Strucker many times, but that whole Ancient Egyptian thing? Doesn't come up.

You can argue this all you want mate, but Hydra=Nazis.

[GennGreymane]

So was capt always a Nazi or was his past altered or was his past altered and thus restored

[Gallahadd]

So was capt always a Nazi or was his past altered or was his past altered and thus restored

The way I see it... The Cosmic Cube didn't turn cap into a Nazi. It created a world where he'd always BEEN a Nazi, and had been changed to be the cappy we know, and was then reverted to his "Original" Nazi mode.

[Jotaux]

red skull
baron strucker
arnim zola

and then theres baron zemo who is also a nazi

all of the most famous members of hydra and all of captain americas most famous enemies are nazis, and now HE is hydra. and you REALLY are trying to say hydra isnt inherently tied to nazis and their ideals.

and why is it SO important to you that we make it super duper extra duper clear that a storyline about captain america becoming evil and taking over the world ISNT labelled as a nazi? ive never seen someone so fervently deny something is a nazi outside of alt right people trying to take a moral highground about getting punched in the face

Because your argument is plain wrong. I would have no issues with Hydra Cap being a Nazi if that was what he was like I have no issues with Red Skull being a Nazi. There are also tons of people in Hydra that are not Nazis. Is Thor a Nazi now? Dr. Octopus? Madame Hydra herself was fuming that Hydra allied themselves with the Nazis. The whole of the plan of Captain America for the last two years was formulated around removing the Red Skull from Hydra. Maybe I should go into more detail because you obviously have not been reading comics.

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So was capt always a Nazi or was his past altered or was his past altered and thus restored

Its up to interpretation whether he was always Hydra. In the retcon, he was Hydra from a young age, which was then taken over by the Red Skull. The allies were losing the war so they altered reality with a cosmic cube to win making Captain America on their side (they did not know he was always secretly working for Hydra but it was an added bonus). The cosmic cube was then used to restore his true self, something Madame Hydra foresaw. The only thing that makes me think he was always Hydra is the existence of Madame Hydra and her knowledge of all the events. Captain America's first goal was to remove Red Skull, he even talks about how Red Skull has perverted Hydra in the comic where Cap kills him. Theres even a scene when they first meet where Cap is pissed at the Red Skull for allying with the nazis.

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1)
Wanna see what Marvel's own description of Hydra is? Take a look at their own page on the group:http://marvel.com/universe/Hydra#axzz4pc9ccDrk
You'll note they mention Nazis and Nazi characters like Red Skull and Strucker many times, but that whole Ancient Egyptian thing? Doesn't come up.

You can argue this all you want mate, but Hydra=Nazis.

That article does not even mention Captain America, the supreme leader of Hydra. Hardly an up to date source.