Russia: Americans Now Support Containment over Cooperation

[Shalcker]

Yeah, I've heard that before. "There are more pressing issues!!1!11". That's not a valid argument unless governments are incapable of doing more than one thing at a time. Interestingly enough that argument has always been used by people seeking to prevent the advancement of equality.

Why is that "not a valid argument"? Argument for or against what exactly? :/

You want to advocate for them - you do it; i feel no desire to.

Got news for ya -- you are virtue signaling as well. And that's ALSO an argument used by people seeking to prevent advancement of civil rights.

Well, then we're the same - both human. It's just cultural differences due to decades of systems being separate with USSR/USA rivalry.

In the end systems might or might not converge; i'm not convinced convergence is desirable at all.

Oddly enough it really isn't hard to not look down my nose at other people as inferior.

What, you think "bigots" are equal to you? Really?

You don't look like it so far.

In the US? Yes it is. The majority of people support gay rights. In Russia, nope. However civil rights shouldn't be decided by public opinion. If that was the case the majority would always oppress the minority.

Majority in which states?

[Cthulhu 2020]

People seem to forget that "virtue signaling" is just waving your arms and going "THIS BEHAVIOR IS GOOD" or "THIS BEHAVIOR IS BAD!"

Everyone participates in doing it pretty much constantly on these forums. One of the biggest users of it as some kind of insult *cough*Theodarzna*cough* is more guilty of virtue signaling than anyone else she accused of doing it.

[Lenonis]

You want to advocate for them - you do it; i feel no desire to.

I'm not really talking about you at this point, but rather these types of arguments. I hear them all the time and they all have the same theme. It's just like when people equate homosexuality and bestiality or pedophilia.

It's just cultural differences due to decades of systems being separate with USSR/USA rivalry.

I'm not arguing there are cultural differences. I'm saying that the root of the desire to keep gays as a second class citizen has a root in bigotry and hatred -- not matter how nicely you dress it up.

That's all. I think we'd all be better off is we just called things as they are.

In the end systems might or might not converge; i'm not convinced convergence is desirable at all.

You'd have to provide evidence as to the harm that would be caused by giving people equal rights vs harm that would be caused by keeping a group of second class citizens. But that's driving this waaaay OT so this is probably that last I'll say on it.

What, you think "bigots" are equal to you? Really?

Well...I'm talking about legal rights so sure, bigots are equal, or in some cases even better off. If we are talking about morally...that's a complicated question to answer. Everyone has issues -- someone holding an irrational hatred of someone they don't even know personally strikes me as a moral failing. Does that make me better than them? I don't think that's an answerable question as I have failings of my own.

Majority in which states?

The US Supreme Court made it federal law. The opinions of people within each state are irrelevant. The majority of people in the US support gay marriage. Let's not move goalposts eh?

Anyway this has been fun, but it's also been OT. Until next time.

[Shalcker]

I'm not arguing there are cultural differences. I'm saying that the root of the desire to keep gays as a second class citizen has a root in bigotry and hatred -- not matter how nicely you dress it up.

I am arguing those are cultural differences.

Gays are in no way "second class citizens" in Russia; they have exactly same freedoms as everyone else. And no more. No special treatment.

It's just that in Russia, for historical reasons, marriage is only registered as between man and woman. And the rest isn't marriage.

You'd have to provide evidence as to the harm that would be caused by giving people equal rights vs harm that would be caused by keeping a group of second class citizens. But that's driving this waaaay OT so this is probably that last I'll say on it.

They have equal rights; what they didn't get is right for special treatment.

That is, they aren't considered defective as far as functioning in society goes, and capable to deal with society on their own without need for any special protection or pandering. Existing laws are sufficient against most forms of harassment; and as long as they don't shove "I'M GAY, SEE!!!" into people's faces most people will not go harassment route anyway.

Live and let live.

The US Supreme Court made it federal law. The opinions of people within each state are irrelevant. The majority of people in the US support gay marriage. Let's not move goalposts eh?

What does Supreme Court has with "majority of people"? :/

Is that same majority as Hillary vs Trump - coastal areas vs inner states?

Because statistics linked upthread definitely show quite sizeable portion of people in US who consider homosexualism moral issue - and also wrong.

[Elegiac]

I am arguing those are cultural differences.

Gays are in no way "second class citizens" in Russia; they have exactly same freedoms as everyone else. And no more. No special treatment.

It's just that in Russia, for historical reasons, marriage is only registered as between man and woman. And the rest isn't marriage.

We heard this bullshit in the West; you repeating it here does not make it any more valid.

[Shalcker]

We heard this bullshit in the West; you repeating it here does not make it any more valid.

You got your point successfully lobbied in West; that doesn't make it "the only possible way to deal with situation" nor "the only right way to deal with situation".

[Elegiac]

You got your point successfully lobbied in West; that doesn't make it "the only possible way to deal with situation" nor "the only right way to deal with situation".

The fact it was the ethical thing to do based both on logic and the available evidence is what makes it right.

So, no. Russia's attitudes are still objectively wrong, especially if it is making a pretense at being a member of the developed world club.

[jugzilla]

I
It's just that in Russia, for historical reasons, marriage is only registered as between man and woman. And the rest isn't marriage.

Marriage, for historical reasons, has always been between a man and a woman. This was even the policy of Barack Obama and the Democrat party until about 5 years ago. To think that people want to renew the cold war over gay marriage...would be funny if it wasn't so scary.

The opinions in expressed in this forum in no way represent the real world, and we should all remember that.

[Crispin]

You said "it's possible to not enjoy gay sex yet not care if people are attracted to the same sex and wether they have sex with eachother"

Haven said:
I am disgusted by gay sex, not by people. As long as it's not being shoven in my face, live and let live. I'm opposed to the idea of making holy cows and higher race out of minorities.

Let me ask you, do you enjoy gay porn? Because if not, you're just as homophobic as I am.

Exactly the "not-caring" you talked about.

No, not the not-caring I was talking about, for the exact same reasons as lenonis points out.

And is this guy a member of Putin's party "united" Russia?

[Xarkan]

and as long as they don't shove "I'M GAY, SEE!!!" into people's faces most people will not go harassment route anyway.

And that is one of the places equality fails because stating you are straight is perfectly allowed, showing heterosexuality in peoples faces (within reason, not saying having sex on the dinner table while having guests) is perfectly fine. But gays kissing.. that is offensive right?

[Crispin]

And that is one of the places equality fails because stating you are straight is perfectly allowed, showing heterosexuality in peoples faces (within reason, not saying having sex on the dinner table while having guests) is perfectly fine. But gays kissing.. that is offensive right?

I don't think he gets it tbh. Gay's kissing in public is "propaganda"

[Haven]

Heterosexuality is shoved in everyone's faces all the time.

And you find it offensive or disgusting?

Well I don't live in Russia so I have no idea

That is clearly seen.

Do you guys have nothing better to do than to argue about completely irrelevant crap?

SJWs are always relevant.

[Shalcker]

The fact it was the ethical thing to do based both on logic and the available evidence is what makes it right.

It is/was considered morally wrong in many cultures - Western included. You can change morality within culture - as West more or less successfully done - but it isn't necessarily easy to do.

So, no. Russia's attitudes are still objectively wrong, especially if it is making a pretense at being a member of the developed world club.

"My moral judgement is different from your moral judgement, you're OBJECTIVELY WRONG!" ?

Well, you're no different from hardcore bible-thumpers then. Or those who say "abortion is murder".

Changing common judgement against anything is long and hard work with many problems. And you cannot just declare "i'm right, you're wrong" to win.

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No, not the not-caring I was talking about, for the exact same reasons as lenonis points out.

What did you say then though? What did you mean by "not caring" exactly?

And is this guy a member of Putin's party "united" Russia?

Do you think any of us posting on this forum are members of United Russia?

- - - Updated - - -

And that is one of the places equality fails because stating you are straight is perfectly allowed, showing heterosexuality in peoples faces (within reason, not saying having sex on the dinner table while having guests) is perfectly fine. But gays kissing.. that is offensive right?

You can complain about man and woman simply kissing in public if you find it offensive. And it is actionable on complain - almost anything that creates complains can be considered "disruption of public order". Just like gays kissing.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think he gets it tbh. Gay's kissing in public is "propaganda"

Those who pushed it as propaganda (undeniably) used this "loophole" with no regard to others; it was closed. That is all.

[Crispin]

Not caring should be pretty fucking obvious, dont tell me you're so dumb that I have to paint it for you, stop acting ignorant.

[Shalcker]

Not caring should be pretty fucking obvious, dont tell me you're so dumb that I have to paint it for you, stop acting ignorant.

We don't care yet for some reason you think that isn't right "not caring".

If you think "it should be obvious" you're tapping into your own culture for "obviousness"; please be so kind to describe it in words anyone can understand.


What I see is "we shouldn't care that homosexual lobby gets their marriage written into laws". Well, we honestly don't care! ...but in Russia they tried and failed. Russian "traditionalist" lobby happened to be stronger. That's all.

[Crispin]

We don't care yet for some reason you think that isn't right "not caring".

If you think "it should be obvious" you're tapping into your own culture for "obviousness"; please be so kind to describe it in words anyone can understand.


What I see is "we shouldn't care that homosexual lobby gets their marriage written into laws". Well, we honestly don't care! ...but in Russia they tried and failed. Russian "traditionalist" lobby happened to be stronger. That's all.

Perhaps you personally do not care, but as a society you do.

[Shalcker]

Perhaps you personally do not care, but as a society you do.

Look, society consists of people.

Some people want preferential treatment - for their group to be protected from any negative persecution/discrimination, or even being discriminated positively. We have plenty of competing groups for such positions - and associated funding.

As results of decades of identity politics, Hollywood support, and lobbying Western legislators got around to idea that homosexuals need to be protected, and that their union should be considered marriage.

Decades that were missing in Russian case. Homosexualism was de-criminalised in early 90's (it was criminal offence with jail time) and that was the extent of "pandering to West" in that regard.

Instead we had "Russian Orthodox Church" as "new Russian identity" to replace old Soviet one - praised by all as "return to traditions". It won "positive discrimination" war - we had things like "communists destroyed churches, let's return EVERYTHING that was church ever to being church property and let them build many more - to make up for all their discrimination in the past" - like Cathedral of Christ the Saviour or, literally just a few months old case, Saint Isaac's Cathedral. Also see "Pussy Riot" case.

Church responded to this positive discrimination with solid support to current ruling powers. Thus they got into positive loop - politicians visit church and pay at least lip service to them (even freaking communists), church supports them, politicians pass laws benefiting them.

And Russian Orthodox Church has not-quite-bright view on homosexuality.

Homosexual lobby, on other hand, is both weak and their entire support is mostly external. Their only hope was that "cooperation with West" goal would take priority - but even then activists relentlessly kept criticising current powers.

2-3% minority that is anti-power vs 60+% that "identify as believers" AND pro-power? Plus collapse of Western cooperation and investments, undercutting only venue through which homosexuals had any hope of getting preferences?

It is quite obvious why homosexuals don't have a chance.

[Crispin]

You do not have to explain to me that your countrymen have the mentality of Europeans in the dark ages, we know.

[Shalcker]

You do not have to explain to me that your countrymen have the mentality of Europeans in the dark ages, we know.

It is same mentality as the one driving preferential treatment of homosexuals or blacks in US.

Certain group "was persecuted" and so preferential treatment is "justified", while their views are given priority over "old thinking" (Soviet atheism in our case).

[Haven]

You do not have to explain to me that your countrymen have the mentality of Europeans in the dark ages, we know.

Ooooh, nation bashing! What else have you got to say about less-than-enlightened Russians? Anything to add to Goebbels' research?