"Alt Right" activist asks for Lenin Statue to be removed

[Flarelaine]

Boiling the Civil War down to just slavery versus abolition is an oversimplification that does nobody any good.

Excising it, however, is outright falsification. You argue with more nuance than most on this issue, but just in the last few days, many have denied slavery was ever a factor.

[Mihalik]

So let's say you go to Area 51. That's government property. Are you free to go there? Or would you say it's more... private.

Apples to oranges stupid comparison. While military bases restrict access to the public, their use remains regulated by US laws and what it can be used for remains restricted in the sense that it's use is also restricted to uses related to public benefit, in this case the defense of the United States.

The US Government is still not allowed to do whatever the fuck it wants on that property, constitutionally speaking.

But the reason why the comparison is stupid that there is a subset of state property specially set aside for public use. This includes things like sidewalks, parks, green areas, courthouses etc.

[-Nurot]

You tell me if it's serious or not, I asked you the same (remember?) and just took your reasoning further.


You can't seriously believe that everyone not liking that statue being demolished, "the right" as you put it, have anything what-so-ever to do with the actual protesters (or the guy hitting people with his car). So why try to link the statue to them only? Why am I defending them, for finding the toppling of the statue idiotic, criminal, and way over the top? It's not like I in any way, shape or form, defend either the rally, or the car hitting people (of-fucking-course not).

That's where the analogies come in - going at it that way, which is a very popular move for extremists on either side (not saying you are one) one can simply, for example, add every muslim that protested Muhammad-drawings together, and let them all be responsible for the actions of any of them. Ie, basically all terrorists, and hundreds and hundreds of murders. Picking that example to show that using such false equivalences to vilify 'the right' as a whole ('the right' isn't a race either, btw), does more damage than good. Destroying the statue was criminal, and everyone involved have to be punished as severly as the law states they can be. I can say that while also finding the protest extremely distasteful, and wanting everyone involved committing crimes to be likewise punished.

You said and I qoute-

As far as tolerance goes, in terms of statues (and property rights, for that matter), the right certainly seems to have won this one, don't they.

I genuinely can't tell if you're serious with that statement. Or the mental gymnastics you tried to apply to me, because of my valid response afterwards. If all statue incidents are being treated equal or even based in any sort of reality.

They demolished a statue, arrest them for vandalism.... it's not like hundreds showed up screaming insults aimed at every group they could think of and one plowed into people.

I wasn't the one claiming the "right" won in tolerance or otherwise....

My reasoning is, looking at this statue being toppled as some sort of moral "victory" for the right because another alt-right troll is fake protesting the Lenin statue and they didn't pull it down while they were trolling, isn't really comparing like events....

Not that it's right, but did you consider the statue toppling was a reaction to the events of the first protest?

Go ahead and, anyone who has done anything wrong in any of these events, prosecute them. That still doesn't doesn't resolve the white supremacy problem. They are disgusting individuals. Taking that to extremes, I'd say they all fucking suck. Do white supremacists hate Muslims? Absolutely. What that has to do with my logic? Not a clue why or how you were trying to change, what I said, but maybe we should drop all the white supremacists off in ISIS territory. That's my logic to the extreme and that's how we'd solve a problem.

I only even brought up the original protest because for some reason you were keeping score between the left and the right and statue protests and were trying to use a trolling protest by another alt-right as some kind of imaginary victory.............

Nothing has been won, it only makes this country a little scarier and a littler more dangerous, for those who aren't bat-shit crazy.

[Dsc]

Excising it, however, is outright falsification. You argue with more nuance than most on this issue, but just in the last few days, many have denied slavery was ever a factor.

The USA's Civil War I was an illegal, unconstitutional war. It was fought not over slavery, but over states rights, thios was after an economic war was waged by elites on the other side of the pond, and some power mad, money hungry elites in the North against the poorer people in the South via underrepresentation, tarriffs, and a double standard, as the non-southerners held African slaves, and had white slavery also.

[Mihalik]

Boiling the Civil War down to just slavery versus abolition is an oversimplification that does nobody any good.

Horseshit.

While Emancipation wasn't the issue that set it of, the hostility of the Federal government towards the Southern economic model was. Issues were related to Federal restrictions on slave trafficking, the opening up of Western territories to small landowners while restricting the expansion of the plantation system (reliant on slave labor), the refusal of the Federal government to enforce Southern "property rights" (right to own human beings) across state lines etc.

Yes the differences were cultural, economic and political, but literally every single element boiled down to the singular issue of slavery and how the institution shaped the culture, economics, and politics of Southern states.

How about we don't pretend the South wasn't just a fucking horrible shithole that was on the wrong side of history and human decency from every single imaginable stand point.

- - - Updated - - -

The USA's Civil War I was an illegal, unconstitutional war. It was fought not over slavery, but over states rights, thios was after an economic war was waged by elites on the other side of the pond, and some power mad, money hungry elites in the North against the poorer people in the South via underrepresentation, tarriffs, and a double standard, as the non-southerners held African slaves, and had white slavery also.

/whisper Bullshit, so much bullshit.

[Sama-81]

They demolished a statue, arrest them for vandalism.... it's not like hundreds showed up screaming insults aimed at every group they could think of and one plowed into people.

I responded to the OP, and that particular topic was about statues only. Nothing else. If you wanted to talk about the march, or which side that is overall 'worse' than the other, then that is fine - that however has noting to do with what you were originally responding to, per the topic of the thread. No other "score" between the right and the left was being kept, not by me at least, I only pointed out that the right only protested in front ot the Lenin-statue, and as far as I'm concerned I have no issues with your ISIS-solution either, as long as we drop both right- and left wing extremists off in ISIS-territory. Well armed, so they can kill off some of the closest thing to actual Nazis this world has to offer this day and age, ISIS.

[gyrados]

Why? Why do they want it removed- because they disagre with Lenin's policies that had next to nothing to do with their lives or history?

All this statue toppling is goddamn nonsense. Those people kicking and punching the statue in Durham was the dumbest shit I have seen in a while.

Motherfuckers, you're enemy is the system that keeps you enslaved to debt and ignorant. That statue is nothing!

Arrgh.

exactly its sad to see some people dont realize they are being played both sides its classic divide and conquer

[Mihalik]

We (conservatives) did not start this fight. We WILL finish it.

Uhu... So how long did your last Thousand Year Reich last?

[kasuke06]

Hey they can put their money where their mouth is and buy the property and melt it down publicly. If I had money and felt as strongly as them that's what i'd do. I'd crowd source that, but I don't really care about Lenin and realize his views of communism isn't what people associate it with.

Buy it, melt it down, build more confederate statues out of it. Preferably ones giving people the finger.

[-Nurot]

I responded to the OP, and that particular topic was about statues only. Nothing else. If you wanted to talk about the march, or which side that is overall 'worse' than the other, then that is fine - that however has noting to do with what you were originally responding to, per the topic of the thread. No other "score" between the right and the left was being kept, not by me at least, I only pointed out that the right only protested in front ot the Lenin-statue, and as far as I'm concerned I have no issues with your ISIS-solution either, as long as we drop both right- and left wing extremists off in ISIS-territory. Well armed, so they can kill off some of the closest thing to actual Nazis this world has to offer this day and age, ISIS.

Except the Lenin protest was a fake protest.

The toppling protest was probably in response to the first pro-white protest (which was the initially chosen location because of the issue involving the statue)

"Per the topic thread" Would that not be protests involving statues? I mean the topic thread had nothing to do with the protest that toppled the statue.......

Using a false dichotomy to declare a proverbial win seems hollow at best, especially only when comparing 2 out of the 3 this past week, when 1 wasn't even a legitimate protest.

[Shibito]

I dont see a problem with tearing down one of the founders of one of the worst killing sprees in human history.

But i guess lenin is a hero and a idol to atleast the antifa folks.

[Darkeon]

If one can be taken down and attempted to be destroyed, due to who the statue was based of - the other statue can also be targeted of a proposal to be removed.

[NihilSustinet]

I dont see a problem with tearing down one of the founders of one of the worst killing sprees in human history.

But i guess lenin is a hero and a idol to atleast the antifa folks.

lol what? you realize that lenin and stalin are two completely different people right?

[Deleted]

lol what? you realize that lenin and stalin are two completely different people right?

You know Lenin let the uprising that led to at least Thousands of Deaths right?

[Taso]

Huh? I recommend you look up the meaning of "private property".

If a statue is owned by the government it does not give the people the right to tear it down without permission. That's my point.

[Sama-81]

Except the Lenin protest was a fake protest.

Well, if it was fake, then that doesn't change much as far as statues go. The OP only talked about a protest against a statue, I pointed out that a protest was rather benign, seeing the other side tearing one down just the other day. That was all. It being torn down as some sort of response to a pro-white march is no excuse what-so-ever (here in my country, counter-protests are usually the ones committing most violent acts, including violence against the police and innocent bystanders), even though the march itself obviously would be the 'big thing' if we simply compare 'protests'. Noone is defending it, nor trying to downplay it. If you want me to point the bad guys out, I'll happily reinforce your view that the pro-white rally was the main show of disgusting extremism here, and obviously noone even remotely unbiased would ever claim otherwise.

[volescue]

It's art it shouldn't be torn down because they don't like what it represents. This goes for both sides.

I think communism is a horrible political stance but I don't want to see the statue destroyed over it.

To quote our nation's leading warrior archaeologist, "It belongs in a museum!". Though if this is a privately owned statue, that is a different thing.

History is important, statues can be great for showing the likeness of someone from History. However, you shouldn't name a street after after them or have a monument dedicated to their memory. It is what pisses me off about the Antifa group when they were walking through the museum pointing out what they thought were racist displays. Our history is full of racism, it is important to remember that. If the history is wrong, by all means correct it, but don't try to hide it because it makes you feel uncomfortable.

[-Nurot]

Well, if it was fake, then that doesn't change much as far as statues go. The OP only talked about a protest against a statue, I pointed out that a protest was rather benign, seeing the other side tearing one down just the other day. That was all. It being torn down as some sort of response to a pro-white march is no excuse what-so-ever (here in my country, counter-protests are usually the ones committing most violent acts, including violence against the police and innocent bystanders), even though the march itself obviously would be the 'big thing' if we simply compare 'protests'. Noone is defending it, nor trying to downplay it. If you want me to point the bad guys out, I'll happily reinforce your view that the pro-white rally was the main show of disgusting extremism here, and obviously noone even remotely unbiased would ever claim otherwise.

I suppose my ultimate point was more that, nobody is winning when it comes to "right" or "left" division especially as of late and certainly when it comes to anything to do with statues.

[Kiri]

It's funny. That statue is up for purchase, so if it really offended those guys that much they can just buy it and do whatever they want to it.

[Wildtree]

Im sorry that it doesn't sound clear cut I am trying to say its owned by the government but not the people like you cant access a military base without permission because its private/government property.

Everything the government owns is automatically the property of the people.
That military base, you might not have access to as an individual, but, point and fact, you're still a part owner of it.
You even have a say what happens at that base, just like every other member of your society.
That's why we elect officials that act in our stead.