Blue responded about BM

[Dracodraco]

Then there are those of us who have all the legendaries for all the specs, yet just don't get off watching aimed shot cast bars followed by a big crit while pretending to be superior playing a "harder spec". Most of your post was pretty solid, but definitely ended in a big fucking thud.

You think all mages enjoy playing both fire and frost, or all locks enjoy Affliction and Destro? The playstyles are very different, but there's nowhere near this amount of QQ when they have to play one or the other. I'll restate: You play a CLASS, if you choose to stick with a single branch of that class, you're going to suck at what the other branch does better. You can't expect every spec to be master of all.

[Biomega]

Complex? No.

Nowhere near as Braindead or free from any consequence as BM? Most of them.

I wouldn't call BM "free from any consequence". If you don't prioritize correctly and use your CDs well, you will do poor DPS - the same as any other class. Most of what people perceive as "braindead" in BM is the fact that you don't have to account for most fight mechanics because you are 100% mobile. It gives the spec a sort of "ranged Rogue" feeling that people seem to equate with the stereotypical faceroll button-mash, but the reality is that you still have things to keep track of and use in the correct sequence, and that you can still mess up easily.

In fact, given the proc-heavy nature of many BM setups, it's more reliant on player awareness than some other specs. MM, for example, is almost entirely static in its rotation - the times where you don't have a proc when you need it to follow the rigid cyclical rotation are very rare. All you have to do is time your damage windows around movement phases.

And in the end, it's a matter of degrees. I am on board with the general paradigm of "easier to play = lower DPS", but we're moving at levels where such things are very difficult to just determine. It's easy to compare things like DH talent choices, where you can essentially replace one ability with a passive, in the same talent tier - trading ease-of-use for performance. But who's to say what is objectively easier between BM's mobile, proc-reliant style and MM's less mobile, rotation-heavy style? And how high should the difference be? That is the question, really.

You play a CLASS, if you choose to stick with a single branch of that class, you're going to suck at what the other branch does better. You can't expect every spec to be master of all.

I'm confused why this keeps coming up. No one is asking for BM to be the "master of all". No one is asking for it to do as much or more than MM. What people are asking for is to CLOSE THE GAP SOME MORE, which exists now and will only widen in the near future due to scaling issues. That's what it's about. Not becoming the lulfaceroll numbah 1 leet deeps. That's unnecessary, and frankly harmful, hyperbole.

[Blamblam41]

It really feels to me like their stance is "BM is at the bottom, but people still play it because they like it. If we buff it, people who like it will still play it, but people who DON'T like it will feel forced to play it". The same goes for some of the other classes as well, I think.

Sounds like they need to stop balancing what is viable around what is perceived to be popular/unpopular.

Mages, Warlocks and Rogues have the same issues where Blizzard can't decide whether or not they like the representation of X, Y or Z spec in A, B or C difficulty.

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You think all mages enjoy playing both fire and frost, or all locks enjoy Affliction and Destro? The playstyles are very different, but there's nowhere near this amount of QQ when they have to play one or the other. I'll restate: You play a CLASS, if you choose to stick with a single branch of that class, you're going to suck at what the other branch does better. You can't expect every spec to be master of all.

I expect Blizzard to atleast get each spec within 500 dps of each other within the same class, with differing AoE utility, support utility, mobility utility and thoroughput buff utility.

Why you as a consumer don't expect that from a multi-million dollar AAA gaming company is pretty questionable.

[Eapoe]

Sounds like they need to stop balancing what is viable around what is perceived to be popular/unpopular.

Mages, Warlocks and Rogues have the same issues where Blizzard can't decide whether or not they like the representation of X, Y or Z spec in A, B or C difficulty.

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I expect Blizzard to atleast get each spec within 500 dps of each other within the same class, with differing AoE utility, support utility, mobility utility and thoroughput buff utility.

Why you as a consumer don't expect that from a multi-million dollar AAA gaming company is pretty questionable.

As Draco pointed out previously, it's easy to say make them equal or close, but in a raid setting, with multiple mechanics, the gap widens. If they are within 500 dps of each other, the difference on a movement heavy fight could actually put BM at 100-300k dps over MM, simply due to movement interrupting MM hard casts.
BM is still competitive and used on progression, but MM pulls ahead due to current scaling, tier bonuses, and raid boss designs.
Yes, the gap will widen later in the game, but Blizz has stated that buffs will reappear to line BM back up to what it is; however, that doesn't translate into Bm being the best spec for raids.
I don't like the idea of hybrid/movement taxes, but as it stands, if BM and MM are damn near equal standing still, then BM will destroy MM on any type of movement designed fight simply by being completely mobile. I understand why it is that way.
It's also very possible that by the last raid BM will be the highest damaging spec in game, simply due to possible set bonuses, legendary interactions, stat scaling, and encounter design. Is it likely? Who knows. Just keep in mind this is also a game that sees power shifts spec to spec almost every raid tier, especially where Hunters are concerned.

[Illana]

Just getting a bit bored of BM now tbh, we all know the skill ceiling is pretty low and every raid is feeling the same now. Think I might finally go over to the dark side

[HAK]

I've made the switch already with 7.3 and I'm not regretting it. Had to push my artifact from 53 to 58 in few days and I must admit, I'm liking it so far. Very challenging and rewarding! I should've put more artifact power earlier...

I look at it this way, I have now 2 geared up specs that I can switch to/from based on what raid demands. It is more complex, no doubt, easy to mess up, a better way to put it and its penalizing when you do mess up.

I really don't find a reason for all this, just put some effort into learning the spec and you'll end up with options to chose from.

[Purpleisbetter]

Boomkin has similar mobility to BM?

There speaks someone who has never played either spec in a raid, especially the turret-tastic Moonkin spec...

Potentially he's right because with Oneth you sneak free proc'ed Starfalls in ST rotation as well.

Problem is that people forgot Starfall is now a ground target aoe so you rarely take advantage of it because of the distance between the druid and the circle of the spell itself.

Frost mages and Koralon Fire Mages are on a different universe of "being mobile" compared to owls

[Sar-]

Nah, with BM you can move constantly during a fight and never need to stand still for a single second. Boomkins are completely immobile when they have to cast their AP builders, and only have SS, SF and Sunfire/Moonfire that are instant cast and can be cast on the move. Boomkins spend at least 50-75% of a fight casting their AP builders (Solar Wrath/Lunar Strike), so to say it and BM have the same level of mobility during a fight is completely wrong. Boomkins get punished severely by prolonged movement and having to do mechanics. It's why I switched from Druid to Warlock for ToS, and glad I did.

My hunters are my main alts, and I've mained them prior to Legion. Not a huge fan of the class redesign mind, and still think BM has been pruned a bit too much, and it would be boring af to main, but I do love how it's now the most mobile Ranged class atm.

[Aesde]

I think no one will argue, that's if one spec is really superior, then nobody plays other (gimped) spec.

For example, literally all hunters played in MM in HFC.

But what do we see in TOS? There are more bm-hunters, then mm-hunters, even with current dps difference. How can it be, if BM-hunters are "bad"?

Maybe because it's a BS.
Bm has better utility, full mobility, simple rotation, better switching, better soloing, less proc-dependent then MM. BM doesn't need BiS leggos to play well. BM can't fck up his dps, because shit pops up under him. Because blue BM is green MM.

So if the dps gap will decrease, all hunters will be pushed to play BM.

No thx

[Biomega]

But what do we see in TOS? There are more bm-hunters, then mm-hunters, even with current dps difference. How can it be, if BM-hunters are "bad"?

Maybe because it's a BS.

Or maybe because Legion has been the expansion with THE worst spec-switching in the history of the game? It can take someone literally two months to get the right BiS legendaries for a new spec, if they choose to reroll. Faced with that, many people just say f it I cba.

[Aesde]

Or maybe because Legion has been the expansion with THE worst spec-switching in the history of the game? It can take someone literally two months to get the right BiS legendaries for a new spec, if they choose to reroll. Faced with that, many people just say f it I cba.

1. Then how do you stuck in BM-spec, if MM was a raid spec to go in EN, and you can't switch the spec because "reasons"?
2. ToS released earlier then 2 mouths ago, so you had all your time to farm MM leggos.
3. In current patch 52 artifact trait can be reached nearly instantly.

So we have no reasons to buff BM even harder then now.

[Biomega]

2. ToS released earlier then 2 mouths ago, so you had all your time to farm MM leggos.

It's not about it being POSSIBLE. Many people just don't WANT to do it.

3. In current patch 52 artifact trait can be reached nearly instantly.

AP is not the problem, legendaries are.

[Aesde]

It's not about it being POSSIBLE. Many people just don't WANT to do it.

Dude, you don't want to farm legendaries (and you don't need to farm it, you just need to play the game), Blizz don't want to buff BM (even for 2 extra weeks before we activate The Crucible).

It's a dead end.

[Biomega]

Dude, you don't want to farm legendaries (and you don't need to farm it, you just need to play the game), Blizz don't want to buff BM (even for 2 extra weeks before we activate The Crucible).

It's a dead end.

There's farming, and then there's farming. What people don't mind is getting legendaries doing stuff they do anyway. What some people DO mind is doing every single old raid on normal, heroic, mythic, and LFR, and doing every single M+0. Every week. Because that's what would have been required to quickly switch to a different spec. Look at streamers like Quin who were forced to reroll and went absolute BALLS on the leg farming, and still don't have every BiS leg they need.

And it's not like every player has all the legendaries by now either. Just looking at my own guild, out of our ~30 people raid roster, there's 7 people who've played the same character since Legion release. In my SO's guild on EU, it's only slightly more. Outside of the highest tiers of raiding, that's just a reality for many people.

But whatever the numbers, "lots of people still play this class" is not per se an argument for it to be underperforming.

[Mavick]

Quoting legendaries as a gating factor was legitimate pre-7.2.5. Saying that's a limiter at this point you're not doing any content at a rate where it matters anyway.

[Aesde]

There's farming, and then there's farming. What people don't mind is getting legendaries doing stuff they do anyway. What some people DO mind is doing every single old raid on normal, heroic, mythic, and LFR, and doing every single M+0. Every week. Because that's what would have been required to quickly switch to a different spec. Look at streamers like Quin who were forced to reroll and went absolute BALLS on the leg farming, and still don't have every BiS leg they need.

And it's not like every player has all the legendaries by now either. Just looking at my own guild, out of our ~30 people raid roster, there's 7 people who've played the same character since Legion release. In my SO's guild on EU, it's only slightly more. Outside of the highest tiers of raiding, that's just a reality for many people.

But whatever the numbers, "lots of people still play this class" is not per se an argument for it to be underperforming.

1. It's up to you.
Yes, you can do all this stuff and receive leggos every CD or play in your pace and have it every 3th CD.

2.
Ok, I think I grasp your PoV.
Lots of BMs reroll in the middle of expansion and don't want to farm leggos.
That's why Blizz need to buff BM-hunters and force all MM to reroll to BM and farm their BiS leggos again, right?
It's kinda flawed logic, imho.

3. I do agree, that's legendary system requires significant improvements.
Cross-spec legendaries like huntmaster ring is the step in the right direction.

[Biomega]

2.
Ok, I think I grasp your PoV.
Lots of BMs reroll in the middle of expansion and don't want to farm leggos.
That's why Blizz need to buff BM-hunters and force all MM to reroll to BM and farm their BiS leggos again, right?
It's kinda flawed logic, imho.

It's flawed because you are making a ridiculous assumption (one that, I might add, I have repeatedly explicitly condemned), i.e. that somehow buffing BM equates to it outperforming MM. Which is not what anyone wants, or calls for. This isn't a binary world of two options BM < MM or MM < BM. It's a matter of DEGREES, not absolutes. Why people so consistently refuse to even consider that in their thinking is beyond me.

Looking at the statistical data, BM is just not in a good spot. When the supposedly "easy to play" spec is second from the bottom even on the shit-tier percentiles, the supposed trade-off just isn't happening.

[Trapstarz]

so what spec should be bottom then ? or at least acceptable to be bottom, since they will always be a top DPS and bottom DPS.

[Biomega]

so what spec should be bottom then ? or at least acceptable to be bottom, since they will always be a top DPS and bottom DPS.

Okay, let me rephrase, then.

It's second from the bottom, with too large a gap between it and MM, even on the low percentiles. That gap should be smaller - for BM as much as for other classes.

[Trapstarz]

But in reality, in your current progress roster, does this "humongous" gap really shine ? Are you really at the bottom of the recount ?