EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[Flarelaine]

How about all eastern block rips from EU at once, installing them borders back.

Just what borders are you talking about? I can understand if you don't like the present ones. Go back a century, maybe?

[Mayhem]

Dude, we forgave billions of pounds of Germany's WW1/WW2 debt because they were in no shape to pay it and we wanted to help them rebuild, and THEY were the aggressors/villains.

Dude, i'm talking about british colonies which you happily exploited for decades, jamaicas slave trade, or for example the iraq war and of course brexit.

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Yes, in fact it was Poland who turned the tide at the siege of Vienna, saving Austria/Germany (then the first reich) from the Ottoman Empire and marking the end of the Islamic conquest of Europe.

It was a coalition of german/austrian and polish forces, i mean 47.000 germans/austrians and 27.000 polish soldiers together formed the relief force.

But yes, poland at that time was one of the big players in europe.

[Flarelaine]

Nope the USSR declared that on their behalf, it's not the same. Also Germany actually paid some money towards Poland after WW2, it gave it less than 1% of what it gave other countries despite doing more damage to Poland than anywhere else. So they admitted guilt/culpability at the time, just never made proper remunerations.

Germanys attitude to paying it's debts ot Poland, Greece, etc can pretty much be summed up as so:

Pre-reunification: Speak to us after reunification.
Post-reunification: Too much time has passed, America and the others say we don't need to pay.

Again, factually wrong. Poland declared they expect nothing more from Germany back in 1953.

You may argue they were pressured by the Soviets but it was nevertheless the act of the internationally accepted Polish government.

And if you claim whatever Communist governments do isn't valid - the same government gladly accepted a huge chunk of Germany.

[Raakel]

Just read this article of Polish-American Anne Applebaum for some giggles:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1164039.html

Skip the first paragraph...

While a litte OT this is an interesting view of Germany from an outside perspective that has a lot of truth in it.


caervek must be someone with Polish roots. No disrespect but often times this leads to a kind of over-romantic view of the country of your forefathers and hinders objectiveness.

[Daedius]

You want a bold solution? I got one for you, one that should have been enacted 15 years ago: dissolution of national parliaments. That's the only long term solution to this nationalistic bullshit.

Yeah, let's get rid of countries... just make all of it the United States of Europe...

Sod off. Countries should be having their own interests first and foremost before being dictated on what to do by the EU.

The EU can go rot in hell, and I honestly hope it falls apart in my lifetime. You can thank that bitch Merkel for making a lot of people hate the EU. No country should be obligated because of that moron.

[Mayhem]

Yeah, lets get rid of countries... just make all of it the United States of Europe...

Sod off. Countries should be having their own interests first and foremost before being dictated on what to do by the EU.

The EU can go rot in hell, and I honestly hope it falls apart in my lifetime. You can thank that bitch Merkel for making a lot of people hate the EU. No country should be obligated because of that moron.

It stops at countries? Or do you feel the same about federal states within those countries? What about counties within those federal states?

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

It stops at countries? Or do you feel the same about federal states within those countries? What about counties within those federal states?

Trust me, the governing body of Texas is a much easier beast to contend with than the governing body of the United States. Significant difference there. In fact, if we didn't have to spend the majority of our time contending with the U.S. government we'd be much better off in dealing with our own.

I mean you can already tell that Germany is damn near calling the shots anyway. You think it'll be any better under a more authoritarian-based, all-controlling regime?

Again, this is not an anime nor Star Trek. I know they love to always make these immense world governments seem amazeballs but human nature dictates otherwise.

[Pannonian]

I mean you can already tell that Germany is damn near calling the shots anyway. You think it'll be any better under a more authoritarian-based, all-controlling regime?

As i said, best way to dissolve this imagination (because lets face it, its just imagination): Get rid of the german government and any other national government. Why should the spanish government talk to the EU about regional development when the small basque town can directly communicate with the EU?

Get rid of the middle man!

[Mayhem]

Trust me, the governing body of Texas is a much easier beast to contend with than the governing body of the United States. Significant difference there. In fact, if we didn't have to spend the majority of our time contending with the U.S. government we'd be much better off in dealing with our own.

I mean you can already tell that Germany is damn near calling the shots anyway. You think it'll be any better under a more authoritarian-based, all-controlling regime?

Again, this is not an anime nor Star Trek. I know they love to always make these immense world governments seem amazeballs but human nature dictates otherwise.

That's pretty tough talk for the second most indepted state in the country. So going by this logic california is calling the shots in the US?

[Ettan]

Poland has accepted over 2 milion Ukranian refugees (note refugees, not fortune seekers) since the krimea conflict begun.
Germany does not even have a thousand of them.

With that in mind, this strikes me as extremly petty of the Eu. They want to punish Poland for not accepting illegitimate refugees.
I find it rather amusing as this clearly demonstrates that even the bureaucrats of the Eu looks upon these "refugees" as the burden they are.

1. Poland is a neighbouring country of Ukraine
2. They are fleeing an actual war.
=Legitimate refugees

1.Ventureing beyond the neighbouring countries of the conflict zone (see first safe country principle).
2.While the actual syrian refugees are fleeing from conflict; the vast majority are fortune seekers from both africa and the middle east.
=Illegitimate refugees

[Mayhem]

Poland has accepted over 2 milion Ukranian refugees (note refugees, not fortune seekers) since the krimea conflict begun.
Germany does not even have a thousand of them.

Nope it hasn't.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

That's pretty tough talk for the second most indepted state in the country. So going by this logic california is calling the shots in the US?

We also house several military bases and NASA while having the largest GDP only second to California.

Secondly, if we had an absolute Democracy, then California ironically would be by and large calling the shots. Fortunately, we don't, we're a republic.

Thirdly, how are your cheap shots at all relevant to our current conversation besides only feeding me ammunition for a return fire? I was arguing that large governments make it HARDER to focus on home. You're constantly funneling your energy into the centralized body which also helps to siphon off taxation as well that could go back towards the state.

Then ironically, you get stand-up guys like yourself, trash talking how we take and take yet don't calculate for the fact that we also give. Not only of our money in the first place but also of our land, of our citizens, and most importantly our time and sovereignty. All the while, you sit there gawking like a neanderthal without a clue as to why we might be hesitant to trust in larger power structures. Maybe your very attitude is why. Because by the end of it, even though we ultimately helped to create the very power in question, it comes back to bite us and belittle us. Inevitably. Every. God. Damn. Time.

[Pannonian]

Nope it hasn't.

Maybe he is talking about this:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eur...efugees-claim/

Government data, however, shows that despite a jump in the number of Ukrainians trying to settle in Poland since the outbreak of war in eastern Ukraine, Poland hosts a mere three Ukrainian refugees and has granted some protections to around 200 more. Another 65,000 Ukrainians hold residency permits in Poland.

[caervek]

Again, factually wrong. Poland declared they expect nothing more from Germany back in 1953.

And like I said before it didn't, the USSR did on it's behalf.

To put it in perspective, Poland was invaded in WW2 (by both Russia and Germany), then occupied entirely by Russia, it wasn't freed from Russian control until after Germany had reunified and so never got it's own say at the time.

caervek must be someone with Polish roots. No disrespect but often times this leads to a kind of over-romantic view of the country of your forefathers and hinders objectiveness.

Nope native British, I just don't have the anti-Polish sentiment that many of the English do.

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Maybe he is talking about this:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eur...efugees-claim/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...genous-society

Lol, there are a lot more Ukrainian refugees in Poland than that:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...genous-society

Just because refugees can speak the language and actually have useful skills/training doesn't stop them being refugees XD

[Puri]

Nope the USSR declared that on their behalf, it's not the same.

With the same reasoning Germany could deny any payments by saying: It wasn't us, it were the Nazis.
You either accept the full responsibility of the actions and therefor both the obligations and contracts of your predecessor country, or none of them.
Cherrypicking what contracts you like or don't like - especially 60 years later - will never stand before any international court because chaos would ensue then when every country could onesidedly revoke any international treaty they signed, violating the first principle of civil law pacta sunt servanda.

[Pannonian]

Lol, there are a lot more Ukrainian refugees in Poland than that:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...genous-society

Just because refugees can speak the language and actually have useful skills/training doesn't stop them being refugees XD

You should read your own article maybe?

"Last year Poland issued 331,000 permits for short-term work to Ukrainians, up 50% on 2013"

While we're still miles away from 2 millions, these are migrant workers, not refugees. So poland getting 300k Ukrainians to boost their economy, doesn't equate them taking in 300k refugees.

Maybe there are more refugees now, the only number i found was from the polish government from 2014 - those 3. Do you have any newer source? Would be interested.

[caervek]

You should read your own article maybe?

"Last year Poland issued 331,000 permits for short-term work to Ukrainians, up 50% on 2013"

While we're still miles away from 2 millions, these are migrant workers, not refugees.

I'm not the guy who said there were two million refugees, I was just pointing out it was in six figures and the guy trying to claim they didn't exist was blowing hot air.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

That's pretty tough talk for the second most indepted state in the country. So going by this logic california is calling the shots in the US?

Also... "In 2016 it is “guesstimated” that New York State had the highest state and local debt as percent of GSP."

http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/compare_state_debt

Look at California's debt. It appears that, for the most part, debt is almost comparative to one's production and overall population. Which to some degree, makes sense. Of course some take more, some take less regardless of this but that comes down to, again, what your population is exactly made up of.

For instance, West Virginia likely takes in inordinate amount of government aid for what it produces HOWEVER it has also suffered the hardest due to heavy reliance on a singular industry that is in a near constant decline. WV is a prime example of why unions are great, they can shore up weaknesses such as that.

They can also, overreach and become oppressive. Our federal government is already there. This is not the same governing body that helped to win the day back in WWII and set the world stage for future prosperity and peace. It was much smaller then, as powerful as it may have been. There is balance to be struck and it's not easy.

So even if we wanted to argue semantics, you're not right either.

[Deleted]

Yes, not much time till we can have the 100 years anniversary and everyone gets to blame Germany once more. Isn't that something to look forward to. Oh, the joy.

Next anniversary is 75 years. Gotta remind them about what they did.

[caervek]

With the same reasoning Germany could deny any payments by saying: It wasn't us, it were the Nazis.

That's not the same, the Nazis were the elected government of Germany and it wasn't just the Nazis that invaded poland and massacred millions, regular Germans helped too. The fact that Poland remained occupied following WW2 and didn't gain its freedom back until the 1990s doesn't void any of Germany's wrongdoing or legal responsibility for its actions.

Personally I think it's disgusting that Germany treats Poland (and Greece) with a "we ignored you for so long so we win" attitude, but the cherry on the cake is that it is fining countries for not obeying it's will, when it still owes billions to those countries which it has no intention of paying. If it had actually paid it's debts instead of shirking them then those countries wouldn't be in the state they're in.

Germany is going to have a shock too when it presents the UK with it's "punishment for leaving the EU" bill because some of our politicians have hinted the they want to simply subtract it from Germany's WW2 debt lol.