EU Tries to fine Poland $75 Mil. Poland sends Germany $1Trillion bill for WWII

[Esotaric]

Immigrants built the world you live in. Your blatant xenophobia is what is destructive.

this is why Trump won. Blatantly accusing whoever you don't agree with a racist, bigot, w/e isn't adding anything to the dialogue

Assuming this guy posted in the heat of the moment. I think he meant migrants and illegal immigrants. If you put it in that context it makes sense. Illegals drain domestic resources and a nation loses its identity.

[Mehrunes]

Tell that to all those polish guest workers that can't get jobs in their own country. Let's see what happens if the unemployment rate skyrockets.

Except the main reason behind emigration was not lack of jobs per se, but lack of jobs that would pay as well as those in the west. And right now the unemployment rate in Poland is worrying EU economists because it's so low, so yeah...

What "bad" names?

It's a fact that these countries are quite poor compared to the West.
And it's a fact that their only progress comes from Western charity.

So you can't discern between "fact" and "abject bullshit I pulled out of my prejudiced ass"? Well, given your previous "contributions", not surprising at all.

It seems you too cannot handle the facts.
Even our welfare is twice your average income, so please.. Spare me the whining and come up with some arguments.

https://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/NL/LT

I like that page.

And how the fuck does that support your previous post?

They don't fund basic things?

The EU bloody funded the entire Eastern Europe infrastructure which is critical for any economy.

I've stayed in Poland for a while and quarter of the city had EU funded billboards, from simple roads to public transport all funded by EU money.
Bulgaria didn't even have proper roads before joining the EU

Reading whole sentences is a hard skill apparently. Unless you care to give a source for roads in Poland being privately owned for them to count as "people's anything" (in context of personal property akin to home ownership) that @Wikiy actually talked about?

[Malacrass]

I'm actually at a point where I want Poland to leave, for its own sake.
I used to think that freedom of movement will benefit them longterm, since people send money back home... and some do return one day with the skills honed abroad (see brexit). But when I hear some of our leading politicians openly suggest that we (in this case germany) should recruit nursing staff in East Europe to fix our deficiencies in that field of work I'm legitimately starting to worry.
I mean Poland has similar demographic issues, who takes care of their old people? Ukrainians?

[Mehrunes]

THIS SO MUCH!

Except that proves absolutely nothing of your xenophobic flailing. Plus ati87 apparently can't read for shit, so congrats on going THIS SO MUCH about a post like that, effectively creating a chain on inability to read for shit. A failure of such magnitude fits the theme of your posts here quite well.

But I have absolutely no idea why you people think you have the right to be this arrogant.

Which part of what @Digital Dream said to you was this level of arrogance exactly? Them correctly pointing out you fail at basic European geography knowledge?

There is no hate towards countries.

There is hate towards people who act so arrogant and nationalistic when they achieved nothing worthwhile.

So, self hatred then?

Yes, I also have the luck of living in a country that has been really wealthy for over 500 years.
That doesn't give you the right to act so arrogant and insulting, especially not when your countries get billions on billions.

Again, how exactly did @Digital Dream, or the people of Latvia (depending on which exactly you're acting all victimized about here) act so arrogant and insulting?

I'm not a nationalist.

Yelling that you're the best country ever and flipping the finger to other countries is quite stupid when those other countries are the ones paying your bill.

The bill, a sliver of the bill, what's the difference lel.

We don't treat people like trash, we give them billions.
And in return they act as retarded as Poland is doing now. Do you even know what this thread is about?
It's about Poland going full-retard because they don't want refugees.

If your reading skills weren't as as they are, you'd have noticed that @Digital Dream started that sentence with "I". From the context it's clear as fucking day (at least for the people who aren't too busy spewing ignorant, nation-bashing horseshit to pay attention to words) that they meant you as a person. Not only are you not plural (luckily for the world), you haven't given billions to any country.

So? They're exercising their national sovereignty and you have a problem with that, why? Do you think national sovereignty shouldn't exist?

You can't national sovereignty your way out of a legally binding deal that you accepted by exercising national sovereignty in the first place.

[Saverem]

immigrants are parasites that destroy everything they come in contact with. just take a look at greece, sweden and france. germany is on the same path and any other nation that lets them in. only idiot would approve of it

Although I don't agree that they are "parasites that destroy everything" I will acknowledge that people are a product of their environment and when these immigrants are brought up in a shitty "I must scam/harm/steal/kill/rape/cheat in order to survive" 3rd world culture, they tend to bring those morals over to the country they immigrate to. They think that just because people do those things in their shitty 3rd world county, that it's OK to do it in the 1st world country so they can get ahead there.

This is the main reason why I also support closing the Mexican boarder to the USA. Though it may already be too late. Canada is cool, they have the same mentality as us in terms of honesty and such, they don't need to cheat steal and kill to get ahead in their culture, so we don't need to close our boarders to them.

[Mehrunes]

What's that even supposed to mean? You don't have to even help them, you certainly don't have to take them. You want to help them, you want to take them. There's a big difference there. A governments moral responsibility is towards its own people, not people outside the nation.

As per international refugee law (that all EU member states are bound by), they have at least a legal responsibility to accept refugees, if not a moral one.

Since we're not Eastern European countries we aren't going to shoot them.
So it's not like we have much of a choice.

Because Slovakia shooting and wounding one refugee and Bulgaria killing one, both cases happening after people failed to comply after verbal warning and warning shots totally represents the entirety of Eastern Europe. OK then. Using your glorious measure, wouldn't that mean though that Western Europe ignores the shit out of hundreds sinking at sea just because Italy did so?

Not that any of it matters.
In the end we decided to help them, and you're part of the union so you better give some damn help or we will just hand you over to Russia. It's that simple /s

Netherlands have zero authority whatsoever to hand any country to anywhere.

[Dreknar20]

This is the main reason why I also support closing the Mexican boarder to the USA.

whole point of legal immigration and so you can weed through the ones you want and don't want

[Mehrunes]

Erm, when there's millions of people who have literally nowhere else to go but to the EU (and don't expect countries west, south or east of Syria to take in refugees, they're quite poor as well and mostly ruled by people who don't really have morals, or good ones), and if EU not taking them in entails them dying, then yes, by the moral standards of current Western society (and the EU specifically), the EU is morally obliged to take those refugees in, give them food and some sort of settlement on the short term. On the long term, the EU should also be obliged (and it's in its own interest) to provide them with jobs and permanent settlement. But this latter part is obviously a bit harder to achieve.

As far as west from Syria goes, it's just Lebanon and Isreal. And while Israel didn't do much, Lebanon took at least as much as EU, if not more. To the point that around a quarter of its population are refugees.

I'm actually at a point where I want Poland to leave, for its own sake.
I used to think that freedom of movement will benefit them longterm, since people send money back home... and some do return one day with the skills honed abroad (see brexit). But when I hear some of our leading politicians openly suggest that we (in this case germany) should recruit nursing staff in East Europe to fix our deficiencies in that field of work I'm legitimately starting to worry.
I mean Poland has similar demographic issues, who takes care of their old people? Ukrainians?

Well, it is one of the leading jobs for Ukrainians in the country...

[Saverem]

whole point of legal immigration and so you can weed through the ones you want and don't want

I'll open it to Selma Hayek and close it to everyone else.

[Freighter]

Out there in the real world, when you send them home - which you pay for, by the way - they're back the next day and you can start "sending them home" again next morning. Your strategy? Doesn't actually work unless you literally shoot people that cross the borders illegally or wash up on your shores.

I've had this conversation before, let's see if you actually stick to your gun...do you think it's okay to shoot people by the hundreds at the borders?

If your government can't or is unwilling to exercise control of your territory then they are illegitimate.

Do you think that every border in the world looks like the one between SK and NK?

Do you even know how those people arrive to SK? By plane. Asylum seekers at airports, waiting for denial or being accepted as refugees, most get denied. They don't arrive by going over the border between SK and NK, they would be unlikely to even get past China by foot and they'd certainly be shot at sight if they passed into NK or be imprisoned and then having to perform slave labor.

You can't national sovereignty your way out of a legally binding deal that you accepted by exercising national sovereignty in the first place.

Yes, you can.

As per international refugee law (that all EU member states are bound by), they have at least a legal responsibility to accept refugees, if not a moral one.

International law doesn't mean shit. SK and Japan have signed the refugee convention but we barely take any either way, most get denied. Rate of acceptance is far below the average of OECD countries.

Not if everyone agrees to doing it anyway. Is there a world police to enforce it? No. Do countries still care about their credibility? Yes, they do. And that's why they keep these treaties.

So, do you think SK and Japan has lost their credibility for their low rate of accepting people as refugees?

[ati87]

you dont mean to bash but you call names all the time!! you are no better than the countries here, you just had the luck to be protected after ww2 instead of ussr taking control over your country

Huge difference between randomly bashing and being critical when some people try to downplay everything the EU did to improve the country.

Poland getting allot of money isn't a huge problem, we choice to be in the EU because we think having strong neighbors is a good thing or else we wouldn't have Eu funds to begin with.

But being the biggest receiver and then given the finger is something else entirely which has nothing to do with the USSR.

[Pucek]

Huge difference between randomly bashing and being critical when some people try to downplay everything the EU did to improve the country.

Poland getting allot of money isn't a huge problem, we choice to be in the EU because we think having strong neighbors is a good thing or else we wouldn't have Eu funds to begin with.

But being the biggest receiver and then given the finger is something else entirely which has nothing to do with the USSR.

Well, fairly sure he meant that had Poland not been under USSR occupation for half of last century they wouldn't have to be the biggest receiver, were it your country it would be just as poor.

[ati87]

Well, fairly sure he meant that had Poland not been under USSR occupation for half of last century they wouldn't have to be the biggest receiver, were it your country it would be just as poor.

huge assumption on his part and a pointless what if argument, could as well be that Poland would be worse of because ''reasons'' you don't know and neither does anybody since we can't really revisit the past now can we.

Fact is Poland is the biggest net receiver
The EU has nothing to do with Poland being taken over by the USSR, Western Europe was hardly in any position of power after 2 major wars to dispute Sovjet Union expansion
Poland right now is being a ungrateful brat acting like it has been doing the rest of the EU favors, given that they are the biggest net-receivers from the EU funds and largest group of immigrants working abroad it's outright dishonest to claim that they haven't gotten the better part of the EU deal.

[Slant]

If your government can't or is unwilling to exercise control of your territory then they are illegitimate.

Do you even know how those people arrive to SK? By plane. Asylum seekers at airports, waiting for denial or being accepted as refugees, most get denied. They don't arrive by going over the border between SK and NK, they would be unlikely to even get past China by foot and they'd certainly be shot at sight if they passed into NK or be imprisoned and then having to perform slave labor.

So, do you think SK and Japan has lost their credibility for their low rate of accepting people as refugees?

You're hardly the one that can make the call if a Government is illegitimate. You seem to swing yourself up to the role of official world legitimizer of Governments. Fortunately, you're not. Our Governments are quite legitimate. And they keep being legit, because we vote for them every few years. They have absolute control over their territory, so what you're claiming is outrageously wrong. Try invading any European country and see what happens.

Even more so, I might argue that they're so comfortable in the absolute control they exercise, that a few refugees don't disturb them whatsoever. Syrian refugees do not question the power of our Governments. And while you seem to be majorly affected by internet myths like "Muslims are taking over Germany" (hint: they're not, not in the slightest), our core identity, culture and daily lives are not affected by them. We've had 500k or so asylum seekers and people coming into Germany annually for decades. A lot of people leave Germany, too. So no, we're not going to crumble tomorrow. Thanks for your concern. It's time you told someone else how to run their country. How about, hum, NK?

Most people reaching SK actually go from NK to China and then SK. So I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Yes, they'd get past China. It's the #1 way of getting into SK for them, seeing as the actual SK/NK border is a death trap and tunnels are dangerous projects.

[Notshauna]

this is why Trump won. Blatantly accusing whoever you don't agree with a racist, bigot, w/e isn't adding anything to the dialogue

Assuming this guy posted in the heat of the moment. I think he meant migrants and illegal immigrants. If you put it in that context it makes sense. Illegals drain domestic resources and a nation loses its identity.

Trump won because the american political system is fundamentally broken, where the combination of the two party system, the electoral college, gerrymandering and a general anti-intellectual culture leads to politicians that merely rouse up populist rhetoric. It's not because people are calling racist people racists, and as long as people keep up this distraction tactic the real problem will go unresolved.

[Mehrunes]

huge assumption on his part and a pointless what if argument, could as well be that Poland would be worse of because ''reasons'' you don't know and neither does anybody since we can't really revisit the past now can we.

Given how all countries prospered hardcore under communism, it's a huge assumption indeed It's not like economic unsustainability was one of the reasons it fell or anything. And while we can't revisit the past, we can observe it and make these things called "conclusions".

[Deleted]

This makes me proud of my Polish ancestry

You're proud of a country that demands benefits and financial aid from an organization they're a part of, but refuses to follow the rules of that organization and never gives anything back in return? Sure sounds like something to be proud of, if you're 13 years old. Yeah! Badass Poland!

[Pucek]

huge assumption on his part and a pointless what if argument, could as well be that Poland would be worse of because ''reasons'' you don't know and neither does anybody since we can't really revisit the past now can we.

Fact is Poland is the biggest net receiver
The EU has nothing to do with Poland being taken over by the USSR, Western Europe was hardly in any position of power after 2 major wars to dispute Sovjet Union expansion
Poland right now is being a ungrateful brat acting like it has been doing the rest of the EU favors, given that they are the biggest net-receivers from the EU funds and largest group of immigrants working abroad it's outright dishonest to claim that they haven't gotten the better part of the EU deal.

It was just a logical thought, everyone outside USSR was doing better, more or less but they were all better off, sure there is a number of unknown variables, but generally I'd say it was a fair assumption.

No one in their right mind is claiming that Poland is not the biggest beneficiary of EU structural funds and free movement and for those Polish people are very grateful (don't associate Polish people with the government since the situation there is that currently there are no good candidates, if you go to vote, you vote for the lesser evil and for a lot of people they just vote for the party that they hate the least, bar old people). But let me just set you straight here, because its not all daisies and roses, the EU while being great in many areas, did not help Eastern countries create capital, along with structural funds and free movement came free trade and by no means any Eastern or Central companies could compete with their richer Western competitors. So now while you pump money in CEE they have to buy German/French cars, do groceries in German or French shops (in Polish case that'd be German and Portuguese) etc. In general having business in those countries is difficult since foreign competition is strong (and because of the government).

By no means am I saying that EU is bad, as I've pointed out that Poland can enjoy a lot of structural funds and the free movement of people and those things made the country much much better that it could do on its own (like when you hear those crazies saying that Poland could be better off outside of EU), but a lot of people here seem to think that Poland is literally living off EU while the people just slack around. It also does not help when certain *someone* calls out literally everything east of Berlin a shithole that's ungrateful for godlike charities of the West.

[Noradin]

International law is already void and has no legitimacy due to its inability to be enforced.

So you say "national sovereignty" in your mind means the inability to make international deal, because according to you, these are void anyway since the interantional law they depend on is unenforcable.
Now in my eyes, what you describe there is a country lacking sovereignty if I ever saw one, because that is what national sovereignty is all about: "dealing with other sovereign countries on the same level. If you cannot enter and uphold international treaties as a nation then that nation is not sovereign at all. It is barly a nation at all, in fact.

[Mayhem]

The bizarre thing is that we're all Western.

The bizarre thing is that you don't understand the difference between billion and million.

- - - Updated - - -

No, it isn't. Ethnic nationalism is about ethnicity, which often correlates with race. Ethnic nationalism is not the only form of nationalism. Deeming your country superior to others and wanting to kick out the countries deemed inferior from an union, like Kangodo is doing, is nationalism. It's not ethnic nationalism but it's still nationalism.

That's not what he's saying, like not at all.