T20 vs T21 ilvls and bonuses - wtf?

[Deleted]

So .. I was simming around the tier bonuses, mainly because the T20 2 piece seems so be worth very much and according to my results, 4pc of T20 at 930 ilvl is actually better than 4pc of T21 at 960 ilvl. What is this bullshit, or are my sims wrong? Would be retarded to force into 2/4 pieces from last tier.

Also breaking the T20 2 piece seems to be worth only if the 2 pieces have +45-50 ilvl each.

Something seems very broken.

[Tigonas]

Yeah, I wouldn't look too deeply into it until 7.3.5 PTR does some class adjustments. Hopefully they'll take another look at it.

[Deleted]

So the main question is : What will you reroll ? I'm thinking about arm warrior

[Shirofune]

You're not wrong. T21 is a very big pile of poop.

What's wrong is that Blizzard didn't change it so far into the expansion.

If DHs go live like they're atm in 7.3.5, we're in for a veeeeeeeery rough ride.

[Deleted]

So the main question is : What will you reroll ? I'm thinking about arm warrior

Heh, I've rerolled to DH 2 months into the expansion after 10 years of playing a warlock. Guess it's time to return to it.

[Phantombeard]

Heh, I've rerolled to DH 2 months into the expansion after 10 years of playing a warlock. Guess it's time to return to it.

You never forget your first love, never.

[Waldor666]

You never forget your first love, never.

Hes not wrong - no matter how many times I reroll I always come back to my trusty lock

[sosleapy]

Good all you baddies leave the DH community so us good players can make a name for ourselves. This whole re rolling is stupid. Everyone was like omg re roll for ToS but i wonder how many actually did as DH are not that bad in ToS. I just find it funny.
Re-roll on!

[Shirofune]

Good all you baddies leave the DH community so us good players can make a name for ourselves. This whole re rolling is stupid. Everyone was like omg re roll for ToS but i wonder how many actually did as DH are not that bad in ToS. I just find it funny.
Re-roll on!

I mean, I'm one of the remaining DHs playing at high level and I consider myself to be a good player (I had a 100 parse in Goroth until a week ago, I think it's now a top 2 or smth) and I still think DH is trash and not worth of picking for raid.

If you're a good player and you're able to use another class, there's just no point using a DH because we don't excell at anything and we've to fight against mechanics other classes don't have to.

Biggest one being this shit called Nemesis. Which fucking class loses DPS the way we do when priority targets spawn?

And if DHs are not bad in ToS for you... you better get your facts straight, because yes, we are bad. We're only good in one fight, Maiden, because everything that happens there multiplies our burst, the only thing we're best at.

The reason I don't reroll? All my achievements are on this character. I don't want to go through the AP farming again and I don't want to go through all of the questlines and legendary farming again. If rerolling was as easy as it was in WoD, I wouldn't be a DH by now.

In fact, most of the best DHs in the world already rerolled. Kib, for instance, the maintainer of the DH Discord, rerolled to rogue a while ago.

[Deleted]

Don't worry, they'll nerf the shit out of t20 to make t21 useable

[Veiled Shadow]

You're not wrong. T21 is a very big pile of poop.

What's wrong is that Blizzard didn't change it so far into the expansion.

If DHs go live like they're atm in 7.3.5, we're in for a veeeeeeeery rough ride.

I don't understand why this is a concern. So far in Legion 7.1.5, 7.2.5 have been the patches where they do mechanical changes to classes (not much to Havoc in 7.2.5 unfortunately, but for other classes) and they certainly haven't seemed unwilling to revise tier sets (lots of examples of that, as well, the original Frost DK T20 comes to mind). So if we're into the 7.2.5 cycle and nothing has changed then sure, get your pitchforks, but there's no reason to think that they are "wrong" in not having changed it by now.

[Sylvaeres]

Heh, I've rerolled to DH 2 months into the expansion after 10 years of playing a warlock. Guess it's time to return to it.

I did the exact same, except with a mage, and if this is true, looks like I'll be doing the same

[Shirofune]

I don't understand why this is a concern. So far in Legion 7.1.5, 7.2.5 have been the patches where they do mechanical changes to classes (not much to Havoc in 7.2.5 unfortunately, but for other classes) and they certainly haven't seemed unwilling to revise tier sets (lots of examples of that, as well, the original Frost DK T20 comes to mind). So if we're into the 7.2.5 cycle and nothing has changed then sure, get your pitchforks, but there's no reason to think that they are "wrong" in not having changed it by now.

Because so far, at least half or more of the tiers have gone through changes.

Sublety rogue tier, for instance, was changed three times already. Waiting for .5 for changes is just bullshit at this point when Havoc is in desperate need of changes, both of its mechanics and the tier set.

[kaelleria]

And this is why I'm leveling a rogue...

[Arainie]

So the main question is : What will you reroll ? I'm thinking about arm warrior

You'll have to wait for something to show what the new FotM is. And you might as well make two backup classes in case it changes during the tier.

[kaelleria]

It's less about FoTM and more about damage and utility in my case. If netherwalk functioned like Cloak of Shadows, I'd probably stay DH.

DH have roughly double the number of players as a class like rogue. That number has dropped from like 3:1. They're never going to fix DH until class representation evens out.

[NecroVane]

It's not really that crazy if you think about it, think of the set bonuses like so:

T20 -
2pc: 24% damage increase to blade dance(20% crit on an ability which does 120% crit damage), which with first blood hits slightly harder than a chaos strike. So, basically, once every 7-8 seconds you get a half-cost chaos strike that does 24% extra damage.

4pc: every time you blade dance, you get 2/3 of a chaos strike worth of fury(average fury cost of chaos strike at 50% crit rate is 30). Or, looked at another way, you get one extra chaos strike every 10-11ish seconds based on haste.

so, all in all, in a 45 second window, you're gaining roughly 2 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 2pc, and roughly 4 chaos strikes worth of fury from the 4pc, both of which scale very favorably with haste and gear in general.

T21 -

2pc: eye beam deals 30% extra damage. Eye beam's actual base damage does almost identical damage to chaos strike, except it does not scale with the best artifact trait that we are itemizing for so it scales much worse. But for the sake of argument, lets say 1 eye beam = 1 chaos strike, on average. This means once every 45 seconds, you get approximately 1/3 of an extra chaos strike worth of damage.

4pc: 15% haste for 8 seconds after eye beam. This is just garbage, its 10% less haste than meta, and even 5% less haste than a sephuz proc. 15% haste for 8 seconds, after diminishing returns, is ROUGHLY one extra GCD/auto attack. so, one extra gcd every 45 seconds.

just comparing the two in terms of our made up currency of chaos strikes:

t20 gives you: approximately 2 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 2pc, and 4-5 chaos strikes worth of damage from the 4pc, both scale very favorably with haste, for a total of, lets say, 6 extra chaos strikes worth of damage in a 45 second window.

T21 gives you: 2pc gives you 1/3 of a chaos strike, and 4pc gives you one extra gcd, lets call it a chaos strike assuming no resource starvation, every 45 seconds. so, 1 1/3 extra chaos strikes every 45 seconds.

conclusion: the t21 set bonuses are approximately 5x worse than the current set bonuses, and scale very unfavorably with stats in general. eye beam does not scale with crit, our best stat, or haste, or second best stat, while blade dance and chaos strike scale very well with both. The 2pc bonues, in comparison, are: roughly 8 extra chaos strikes versus 1/3 of a chaos strike, which is 26x worse. the 4pc of t21 is likely to do almost nothing most of the time, as it will be up during meta or bloodlust a good chunk of the time and amount to a tiny amount of extra haste after gear + bloodlust/meta, making its value actually less than i generously predicted it at being.

Since set bonuses make up a much larger contribution than ilvl increases, particularly given that secondaries scale particularly poorly with ilvl, and are way more valuable than agi, it's likely that you'd need a very, very large ilvl increase on your t21 gear to make it better than old t20 gear. With titanforging and all that, my guess is unless these set bonuses see some major, major buffs or reworks, we'll be going back to TOS to get t20 gear for the entire tier. More likely, bliz will just nerf the crap out of t21 and force us to use their awful new tier set bonuses. Even more troubling is the nature of these set bonus changes, which include nothing that generates or discounts resources, like generating 20 fury on a blade dance or making blade dance a really good button to press at a discounted 15 fury, so we are likely to have serious resource starvation issues once again in t21 which, more so than any damage gains/losses, will make the playstyle way more awful.

[bbj]

Where are you seeing all class T19 T20 and even T21 sets? Where can I see that?

[Enentari]

If rerolling was as easy as it was in WoD, I wouldn't be a DH by now.

In fact, it's a good time for rerolling. It litteraly rains AP on Argus and in class hall missions, AK level is now weekly (and a reroll automatically hit 110 with the actual AK), 1st and 2nd leg come very fast, and if you try hard a little bit, you can expect a legendary every week or so (and if you're lucky enough, you got your BIS), tokens give 910 baseline gear... And not to mention that Antorus' release is almost in 2 month.

I came back to my old Rsham some weeks ago, and even leveled a drood. Got 926 gear for both, 67 traits, and 3 legs each with not a huge effort.

[Kobor]

I don't like the T21, thinking to keep current set as long as possible.


Funny that most of you complaining DH damage, while I am about to leave retri for DH.
Maybe its based on players, I like DH's mobility and usually doing more dps with her when having same gear and simmed numbers.

The longer I see logs I see retri going lower, while DHs are not that bad, like here.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=25&dataset=90

I know we can find lot of different statistics, but rarely seen retri over havoc. Not remember log where lower number seen from spec whe don't have other dps choice in the class.