Stop flipping tables about Dev Q&A

[Varitok]

There will always be people complaining about something. Fact is that the vast majority of the playerbase is satisfied with what Legion delivered and is about to deliver.

2 out of the 3 remaining subs do agree its good.

[Orby]

Is there a disconnect though, I mean I understand we all are not going to agree on everything, what is the disconnect on exactly? I am confused on what people are mad about? I watched the video, seemed pretty run of the mill Q&A they usually do.

I think it's a loud minority complaining, in which I hope Blizzard ignores, the last thing we wanna do is listen to people who think like this...

[yuca247]

Oh I understand it. I came back for a month to see Argus and am on a break now. I'll likely be on that break until 8.0 pre-patvch but there's a chance the break will become permanent.

What they and you and others who feel this way don't understand is that some percentage of people who go on break never come back. Any SaaS company that is fine with churn is, in the long run, doomed to lose customers unless they can replace the ones who don't come back and I'm not sure WoW is at the point in its life where it can do that. You can mask the revenue impact of this for a while by upselling loyal customer (server transfers, mounts, etc).but that doesn't last.

In Blizzard's case, though, it may well be that development of an expansion including all of its patches is covered by the box price. After all, $50 * 5m is $250m gross. Some of that goes to retailers but even if they only gross something like $175m that probably covers dev/qa/ etc costs for the entire 2 years. If that's even close to accurate then the subs and other fees are, more or less, gravy.

Oh believe me I understand it perfectly and so does Blizzard. They are almost counting on these players not coming back and they are not worried about it because they know that is not how the majority of the player base feels.

Yes they are at that point they have been at that point for a long time that is why they have said numerous times "if you don't like X and find X is boring and don't want to play X this game may not be for you" They are basically calling their bluff because we have several people here, even in this very thread, that have said numerous times they are done with WoW and yet don't let go. If people can't stop playing a game they swear they hate up and down every day in these forums that is their problem not Blizzards.

[Yunaqt]

Dude, I read like half your post, got tired. I will tell you why I am annoyed. I fucking love Legion, it's best expansion since mists imo, and mists is the best for me. In legion, we got amazing class weapons, and got encouraged to play different classes, yet I can't fucking play alts cause they keep getting shitty legendaries. I have all the bis ones on my lock, and I haven't even gathered all the leggos on my main specc yet. Let alone more than 2 on affli and demo. When I saw these legendary tokens datamined I thought 'Fuck ye, finally a way to reliably farm leggos for alts! It's still fucking RNG cause of the leggo being random, but still, far better than what we got now!'. And then he fucking says that you can only get them on a char that has gotten all the leggos for their class. Are you fucking kidding me?

After I got my bis leggos, I just sat back and played the game slowly on lock, I tried to enjoy the fucking game for once instead of grinding 24/7 old raids and m+. And now he is telling me that unless I triple up on my leggo acquisition efforts, I still have to rely on shitty RNG for my alts, even though leggos will be fucking useless in 10 months from now? I will flip as many tables as I fucking like at this bullshit. And no, I will not focus on getting legendaries on 3-4 different alts I like to play which by the time I have, Legion will have most likely ended, meaning I've been playing a disabled class for half an expansion. The power creep is too large. Going from 1.6 mil ST dps on my 930 ilvl lock to 925 retri 800k feels fucking horrible.

You don't need BiS leggos on your alt to make them 'viable' you're not magically going to find 800k dps from 2 bits of gear, I think if you're doing less dps than a healer is able to there's likely other avenues you can use to greatly increase your dps.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/123560/13#difficulty=5&class=Druid&spec=Restoration&metric=dps&boss=2032 - Said healer DPS

[Soon-TM]

You don't need BiS leggos on your alt to make them 'viable' you're not magically going to find 800k dps from 2 bits of gear, I think if you're doing less dps than a healer is able to there's likely other avenues you can use to greatly increase your dps.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/123560/13#difficulty=5&class=Druid&spec=Restoration&metric=dps&boss=2032 - Said healer DPS

Not 800k, sure, but 250k yes, I've seen it both in guildies and myself. Hyperbole is funny, though.

[Orby]

The disconnect is Ion constantly claiming that balance is fine on THEIR END.

Whilst also ignoring that on LIVE SERVERS... You know, where the players are. It is a complete mess. The same specs always over-performing and the same ones always in the dumpster.

Warcraftlogs, real data from inside their own game. On live servers..... Is apparently wrong.

Oh so it's a high end thing, fair enough, I don't really care about that shit personally...

[Kagthul]

Looks like people are learning a new word today.

oh no, pointing out flagrant logical fallacies like you're spouting is a hobby of mine around here.

What you're doing is a literal textbook Appeal to Authority fallacy.

And you've been called out on it.... and replied by doubling, trippling, quadrupling down.

Lulz.

[Kallisto]

I'd love to hear him talk about the reasons that brought him to saturate the game with RNG mechanics. Or to timegate the hell out of new content (Broken Shore anyone?). Or how they deal with outsourcing, since every new patch breaks the game. He is a terrible communicator at best, and a corporate zombie at worst. Imo he should have stayed designing raids, which he rocks at.

Simple the WoD whiners did. WoD is a response to MoP whiners.

People bitched about nothing to do and Raid or die. So Blizzard turned around and said "Here you crybabies have loot everywhere. Now you no longer have to raid.". Simply put everyone whines no one comes up with an idea that would work for everyone and the so called happy medium will piss off everyone. How as a dev are you going to win?

[Traveler Voltin]

my question got answered finally so i am good.

[callipygoustp]

Passionate is fine.

Unreasonably angry at a minor change that for the most part doesn't affect their gameplay experience whatsoever isn't passion no matter how much gold you paint over it to make it look all shiny and nice - It's still unwarranted hatred.

Passion is NOT the same as unreasonably angry: who knew! I was speaking of passion.

[callipygoustp]

Most responses I see in regards to the dev Q&A are far from passionate responses. If that wasn't what you were talking about, I don't see how it's relevant in a thread regarding the response to the dev Q&A.

Of course you don't see. You're probably too "unreasonably angry" to be rational about it.

Take a breath, re-read my first comment, and then think about your response to it. I was talking about passionate gamers. You shifted to a description of "unreasonably angry": an unreasonable, and unnecessary, shift.

*No, I don't actually think you are angry, unreasonably or otherwise. Merely hoping to make a point about the distinction between what I said and what you tried twisting it into.

[callipygoustp]

I'm not twisting anything you said.

What, huh, how the fu... I commented on passion.

It is absolutely ridiculous that players are passionate about the games they play.

You quoted me and then referred to anger. I didn't even give an example. I merely alluded to the fact that passionate gamers are going to give feedback. Giving feedback is, to me, inherent in being passionate.

You came into a thread about the response to the Dev Q&A, and brought up passionate gamers.

Yes, I did. How is the existence of passionate gamers not a given? Further, how is it not a given that passionate gamers are going to give feedback? What isn't a given is that a passionate gamer is an "unreasonably angry" gamer. All passionate gamers are not "unreasonably angry". All "unreasonably angry" gamers are passionate.

Not liking or not agreeing with someone's feedback does not make them "unreasonably angry". But a lot of fan boys, on both sides of the fence, like to think that is the case.

Do you have an example of a 'passionate' gamer responding to the dev Q&A? Or are you saying the response to the Dev Q&A has instead been by passionate gamers instead of the vile swill that the OP is talking about?

If it is the first, you have yet to provide it.

If it is the latter, you're incorrect.

There is no better way of clarifying exactly what type of poster you are than to resorting to name calling: vile swill. Yes yes, of course, all passionate gamers are vile swill!

With regards to the question:
Are you implying that you are not aware of the volumes of feedback given by passionate gamers on this very forum? This thread alone, the OP itself, is feedback from someone who is passionate about the game.

Are you fucking with me with this question or are you truly ignorant of this? Or maybe you're just being purposefully disingenuous.

[digichi]

the problem is that any attempts to understand the point of view of blizz and their limitations/reasoning leads to 'blizz shill' 'ooo blizz can do no wrong'

so

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you cant catch'em all

(as a side note, id hope everyone already DOES the stuff OP just wrote about. right?? everyone tries to understand eachother?? logical thinking??? anyone??? ok..)

[Deleted]

Imagine if all legendaries were all utility

Then i would not give a single fuck about this system, but as it stands right now it's not the case, hence me saying that ion's statement is fucking stupid.

I'm not sure if that was said with negativity

Not really:
You see the legendary rng drop situation with the lens of a game developer, meaning you probably think it makes the player play more (please do tell me if you dont).
I see the legendary rng drop situation with the lens of a player, meaning i know i cant be as good as i could be because i'm not lucky enough, and that is fucking stupid.

Do you really think game developers know what players want ? all the time ?
Need i remind you the WoD legendary ring they had in mind for ALL of the development and the reaction the player base had to that ?

The gamble RNG is what is keeping this game alive though. People don't seem to understand that.
You can act like idiots all you want, but titanforging, legendaries, and AP keep people playing. Many of them do it begrudgingly, but they are playing and that is healthy for the game.

I'm not a game developer, but if my players kept playing my game because they were frustrated, i would ask myself some questions.
I do have a question though, what kept this game alive in vanilla ? BC ? Wrath ? MoP ? WoD ?
Was it farming 2000 dungeons in 6 months to get the right legendary ?
Was it clearing Molten Core to get items that were higher item level than Naxxramas ?
Or was it because the game was fun and rewarding without it becoming a series of coinflips à la Hearthstone ?

[Talvindius]

If devs know how to make games, unnecessary comma and the players don't, unnecessary comma I'd argue that in some ways, unnecessary comma the players know how to play games (or, rather, how the game is played),unnecessary comma and the devs don't.

You and the vast portion of MMOC that don't know how commas work need to be held down and taught grammar.

Also players have very biased individual experiences which are not always perfectly conformed to by the devs. Devs make a game for a bigger audience than a few players, and while those few players may have different insight conforming to each individual player's every desire is not how you make a good game.

If that was how development was done MMO-C wouldn't be a forum, it would be customer service for Blizzard. Not to mention the loud majority of shitposts complaining about this and that in WoW are not always problematic to more than the OP.

- - - Updated - - -

the problem is that any attempts to understand the point of view of blizz and their limitations/reasoning leads to 'blizz shill' 'ooo blizz can do no wrong'

so

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you cant catch'em all

(as a side note, id hope everyone already DOES the stuff OP just wrote about. right?? everyone tries to understand eachother?? logical thinking??? anyone??? ok..)

There is no reason here, only mindless violence and anger.

Blood for the blood gods, you know the drill.

[Deleted]

Question: "Is X going to be a thing?

Ion: "Well see the thing about X is that it is X so we will look at it and we like X and we also like Y so just you wait. Soon^tm"

[Deleted]

I don't see how anyone can look an Ion's responses to spec representation and the new legendary tokens and think his responses were anything other then asinine.

[Deleted]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

I'll take your long-winded "as a game developer I see where Ion is coming from" as a sort of confession you're making on behalf of all game developers based on your own capabilities and your assessment of what bliz with its multimillion budget can do.
Too bad well-made MMOs prove blizdevs every bit as incompetent as the least merciful MMOC troll ever named them.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I do have a question though, what kept this game alive in vanilla ? BC ? Wrath ? MoP ? WoD ?
Was it farming 2000 dungeons in 6 months to get the right legendary ?
Was it clearing Molten Core to get items that were higher item level than Naxxramas ?
Or was it because the game was fun and rewarding without it becoming a series of coinflips à la Hearthstone ?

should be /thread, tbh

[Armourboy]

Really the biggest disconnect in my mind is how players during testing say " X is going to be a problem ", they disagree, X becomes a problem and then we sit and watch as they spend the entire expansion slapping bandaids on something rather than actually fixing the problem. This isn't new to Ion and this batch of Devs, it's been going on with Developers since this type of gaming started.

Legendaries are a good example. When they introduced them in Beta people told them it was going to cause problems. In fact, some people were even praying they cut them altogether. What did Blizzard do? Absolutely freaking nothing. Eventually they started slapping bandaids on the system rather than fixing them. What should have been the solution? Change all of the DPS ones to Utility. They are stats, they adjust them on things all the time, so they could have actually solved the problem easily. But they didn't. Why? Because it is someones pet project, and when Blizzard gets one of those not even an act of God will get them to change it most of the time.

Don't get me wrong, players can fuss about some pretty petty things, some of them things that they are basically forcing themselves to do. However, there has been more than one occasion where Blizzard just goes full bore on an idea even if the players give them some very sound reasoning. That's where the disconnect and frustration comes in.

Players may not know how to code, but you don't need to know how to do that to know you aren't enjoying something.