What Ruined World of Warcraft

[Deletedaccount1]

The only difficulty left in the vanilla system is the logistics created to arbitrarily increase the time invested needed. So basically it's "hard" because of gear being scarce, not because the bosses themselves are hard.

There are definitely plenty of gear checks but bosses like Huhuran, Twin Emperors, C'Thun and the Four Horsemen are/were incredibly complex mechanically for 40 man raids. C'Thun was impossible to complete when he was first put in the game and the Four Horsemen would wipe an entire raid if a tank missed a taunt.

[Allenseiei]

There are definitely plenty of gear checks but bosses like Huhuran, Twin Emperors, C'Thun and the Four Horsemen are/were incredibly complex mechanically for 40 man raids. C'Thun was impossible to complete when he was first put in the game and the Four Horsemen would wipe an entire raid if a tank missed a taunt.

So you are saying that those bosses were complex? Yes, 12 years ago they were. Right now? Even a dungeon boss has more complex mechanics.

C'thun was impossible to complete due to overtuning, Kil'jaeden in tomb of sargeras this raid patch had also the same problem. Difference? Devs back then took a long time to fix it, now? They fixed it in a few days.

So its hard because of an RNG element the tank had no control of when he was doing the boss perfectly? We still have those elements, currently you can get overlapped by 3 instant kill mechanics being any role, and if u just fail 1 you wipe the raid. Fun isn't it?

[In Ogres We Trust]

"There was a time when loot was exciting instead of generic, dungeons were hard, leveling was part of the experience (and not a 3 day chore to endgame), community was king, and inconvenience just lead to good memories. Now it's just a lobby to pug raid in for ever increasing boring stat increases on forgettable items, with a Facebook game style treadmill on the side.

The sad state of MMORPGS really. I cross my fingers that we see what Dark Souls did to to the action adventure genre in MMO land. Bring back the difficulty, remove the hand holding, and let you experience the world again instead of chase after mindless quest markers doing piss easy content."

-Equestria



Do you agree?

a) Removal of the RPG elements in favor of convenience
b) Streamlining of questing versus exploration
c) Stagnant content that's left alone post-relevance
d) Catering to whiny players
e) Substandard story post-WotLK
f) Killing characters to appease the opposite playerbase
g) Killing relevant characters while maintaining irrelevant/harmful characters that are, in the end, a detriment to the story, e.g. Sylvanas (Alive) and Thrall (Alive) versus Vol'jin (Deceased)
h) Streamlining of difficulty

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Not surprising? So many people work in their jobs just to survive, their bosses lacking actual leadership traits. Hardship where none should be. So, when stress is a constant in your IRL job, what exactly are you looking for in the game you play? Certainly not things that carry a similar weight, which some things in MMO's can seem to carry. The "problem" is entirely, that Blizzard gave in to that crowd, when there's already been an amount of games/a market for those people.

The problem with that theory stems from the fact that most employees are, without question, substandard in their work, too.

[Deleted]

WoW as a game is far far better than it ever was, what's worse in WoW is the whiny players though.

[Deletedaccount1]

So you are saying that those bosses were complex? Yes, 12 years ago they were. Right now? Even a dungeon boss has more complex mechanics.

C'thun was impossible to complete due to overtuning, Kil'jaeden in tomb of sargeras this raid patch had also the same problem. Difference? Devs back then took a long time to fix it, now? They fixed it in a few days.

So its hard because of an RNG element the tank had no control of when he was doing the boss perfectly? We still have those elements, currently you can get overlapped by 3 instant kill mechanics being any role, and if u just fail 1 you wipe the raid. Fun isn't it?

I disagree and I'm assuming you never did these bosses because they were incredibly complex encounters (I haven't either with the exception of Huhuran). If they were as easy a dungeon then some guild would have cleared AQ and Naxx a long time ago on a blizzlike private server but that has yet to happen. Old raiders like Kungen have said that these bosses were as mechanically difficult as most other bosses from future expansions.

[Deleted]

Whining players stucked in nostalgia are ruining WoW. They just whine about every aspect of game without any sense.

Equestria, if you want difficulity - go do mythic +15 keys, mythic raids. wtf you are talking about? You want WoW to be more challenging but at the same time you whine about noflying. So stupid.

[Arainie]

Players ruined WoW. The gamer population went through a generation shift and game development had to adjust. Sad times, but I'm still having fun in Legion at least!

[Sanguinerd]

The only thing that damages WoW in any way is Blizzard listening to players.

[willtron]

MOBAs did.

MOBAs and other genres that provide ability to play in really short bursts that are packed w/ RPG-ish action dealt a heavy blow to MMORPGs in general. Not as many people want to sit glued to their screens playing one game for hours and hours. Market and demands are kinda different from what they used to be.

Pretty much this.

Couple it with the fact the MMO genre has stagnated.

It's cyclical though. It'll come around again in a decade or so, you can see it in the FPS genre right now.

[kamuimac]

"There was a time when loot was exciting instead of generic, dungeons were hard, leveling was part of the experience (and not a 3 day chore to endgame), community was king, and inconvenience just lead to good memories. Now it's just a lobby to pug raid in for ever increasing boring stat increases on forgettable items, with a Facebook game style treadmill on the side.

The sad state of MMORPGS really. I cross my fingers that we see what Dark Souls did to to the action adventure genre in MMO land. Bring back the difficulty, remove the hand holding, and let you experience the world again instead of chase after mindless quest markers doing piss easy content."

-Equestria



Do you agree?

we dont have to think we have hard evidence that its one big pile of BS

best proven by Wildstar which was supposed to be messiah of the "hardcore" mmorpgs - well guess what - its only alive because its on steam and steam seems to be lately releasing all dead mmorpgs which now have amazing playerbase of 250-1000 people playing them in prime time - such amazing succes.

clearly hardcore approach has no place in mmorpgs

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I disagree and I'm assuming you never did these bosses because they were incredibly complex encounters (I haven't either with the exception of Huhuran). If they were as easy a dungeon then some guild would have cleared AQ and Naxx a long time ago on a blizzlike private server but that has yet to happen. Old raiders like Kungen have said that these bosses were as mechanically difficult as most other bosses from future expansions.

do yourself a favour and dont bring a clown like Kungen into this kind of discussions - last we heard of him was when his big "Black Desert is better then wow and will kill wow " project failed because game died when WoD ended and eveyrbody returned to Legion after leaving it during content lul in HfC - proving once again that hardore mmorgps have no place in nowadays world.

[Blayze]

Raiding ruined WoW. Over time, the game has turned away from being a world to explore into being a means by which the entire playerbase can be funnelled into raiding. The gear treadmill only burns players out, and the resets that resulted from the need to get fresh meat in to replenish the ever-dwindling crop of raiders.

Games and expansions live and die on how well they pander to casuals. Legion was a mixture of Blizzard learning the right and wrong lessons from all sorts of things they fucked up previously--now they have an aversion to people ever finishing any form of content ever.

[Hctaz]

When are people gonna understand that this is just not true i mean it cannot be if you think about it. People that are happy with how the game are generally dont go to the forums to write about it. People that do have something to complain about on the otherhand generally do. And both of those are ok. I would be surprised if even half the playerbase even know there is a forum for the game. Because if NOONE is happy as you said in your post then im sorry WoWs playerbase is really just a sad masochistic bunch of people if they keep playing even when they dont like the way the game is, and since i am one of the players that do enjoy the game very much infact better then i have in years i dont think that the "nobody seems to be happy" mantra that complainers seem to throw around is just hyperbole since THEY are not happy that must mean that the majority isnt either.

I mean, it isn't about the entire playerbase HATING THE GAME or anything. You can be unhappy with the state of affairs and wish that they were better while continuing to play the game. Of course people who are happy don't go to the forums to write about it, but people who feel kinda meh about the situation don't either. My general attitude is pretty meh so there are a lot of things I don't complain about.

Legion is actually the only expansion where I openly discussed my distaste in the gameplay of the expansion rather than the state of the Death Knight class, but there were still plenty of things I didn't like about previous expansions as well. I hated the super easy 5 mans in Wrath. I disliked the nerfs to the 5 mans in Cata and the raids in Cata were mega shit tier. I hated LFR now and forever, and I've begun to talk about that as of late, but refrained from doing so until Legion. I hated the daily grind at the start of MoP... But none of those things made me physically go to a forum to complain despite talking to my friends about them all the time. I'd reckon there are just as many people who dislike the game but don't talk about it as there are people who are happy with the game and don't talk about it. Then you have the small minority of really angry people who talk about it and the really happy people who talk about that.

[Deleted]

Endless Grinding , and idiotic lore that was written and rewritten and changed every couple of paches since mop. A 10 year old cand write a better story

[Allenseiei]

I disagree and I'm assuming you never did these bosses because they were incredibly complex encounters (I haven't either with the exception of Huhuran). If they were as easy a dungeon then some guild would have cleared AQ and Naxx a long time ago on a blizzlike private server but that has yet to happen. Old raiders like Kungen have said that these bosses were as mechanically difficult as most other bosses from future expansions.

Because no competent player actually wastes his time on a private server. Bugs, diluted experience and the fact that the server could disappear at any moment is not appealing for dedicating hundreds of hours into something.
I did try those private servers, nostralius and the like, I lasted untill lvl 6, rethinking why was about to throw away hours for nothing.
I cleared Naxx 40 months prior to the preexpansion patch of TBC in Haomarush in a guild called Grammar Police. Their complexity is nothing compared to modern standards. In "future expansions" is a very vague way to put it, if you are talking about TBC then I agree that many bosses were not much more mechanicaly difficult, except some end raid bosses or the complete degenaration Naxx 25 was. However, we are not talking about the difficulty setting in older expansions, but the current expansion.

Kungen feeds on the nostalgia of his viewers to get $$$. People flock to him because he defends vanilla content, but he was questioned by his own guild in the last years, if it was just another ploy to gain subs in twitch. Since he always rides the hype train to get money, and abandons the guild when the hose is dry.

[Zantera]

I don't consider the game ruined at all, in fact I think Legion has been amazing.

In terms of the game becoming easier though, you don't have to look further than WotlK. That's when large groups of people were pugging the same content guilds were running and the feeling of being in a guild and accomplishing things was washed away.

[Allenseiei]

Raiding ruined WoW. Over time, the game has turned away from being a world to explore into being a means by which the entire playerbase can be funnelled into raiding. The gear treadmill only burns players out, and the resets that resulted from the need to get fresh meat in to replenish the ever-dwindling crop of raiders.

Games and expansions live and die on how well they pander to casuals. Legion was a mixture of Blizzard learning the right and wrong lessons from all sorts of things they fucked up previously--now they have an aversion to people ever finishing any form of content ever.

It's funny, because all of the vanilla systems were stepping stones to raid. What made it more of "journey" was not the exploring part, but because most of the playerbase took too long to reach milestones, the barriers of entry in raiding were very big, and progression in PvP was behind the biggest grind in WoW history. The journey was a forced experience.
What did this mean? It meant that the progression curve for players was very flat untill they cleared those milestones. Most players didn't even clear those milestones before TBC came out.

[Eleccybubb]

-snip-

Wildstar was not a hardcore game at all and people really need to get that mentality out of their heads. You have zero hard evidence. Just a game that you think because it had some echoes of difficulty equates to "hardcore". That's not evidence. That is you misinterpreting a game.

It had minor elements of an oldschool MMORPG. Nowhere near hardcore. You want grindy elements then Everquest, FF11, PSO, Ultima, Runescape and Lineage are what you should be looking at.

I don't remember anyone saying Black Desert would kill WoW either other than the usual doomsaying idiots that say that about every new MMO. Other than that it's a pretty successful game in Asia.

As for hardcore approach. You clearly haven't played a handful of Eastern MMORPGS. Because they have proven the approach will work if done right. There are plenty of Eastern games that appeal to that audience so to claim the hardcore approach doesn't work today is wrong and disingenuous at best.

PSO2, Tera, Aion, Lineage 2, Blade and Soul and Black Desert. Hell Lineage 2 still has a dedicated Russian playerbase after all this time as well.

[Deleted]

WoW as a game is far far better than it ever was, what's worse in WoW is the whiny players though.

the game is way worse than it used to be lol

[Gsara]

WoW is what has always been, a highly accessible casual game that doesnt take a whole lot to accomplish anything. Sure its not the same game it was 10 years ago but it s still basically the same at its core, a gear treadmill. People can argue back and forth about old wow vs todays wow, I happen to like both and dont think one is better than the other because to be honest they arent that different overall.

If people are having an issue with the game now either from a game play standpoint or out of sheer boredom, Id suggest playing something else because there is a ton of games out there that are pretty good.

[Phasma]

I mean, it isn't about the entire playerbase HATING THE GAME or anything. You can be unhappy with the state of affairs and wish that they were better while continuing to play the game. Of course people who are happy don't go to the forums to write about it, but people who feel kinda meh about the situation don't either. My general attitude is pretty meh so there are a lot of things I don't complain about.

Legion is actually the only expansion where I openly discussed my distaste in the gameplay of the expansion rather than the state of the Death Knight class, but there were still plenty of things I didn't like about previous expansions as well. I hated the super easy 5 mans in Wrath. I disliked the nerfs to the 5 mans in Cata and the raids in Cata were mega shit tier. I hated LFR now and forever, and I've begun to talk about that as of late, but refrained from doing so until Legion. I hated the daily grind at the start of MoP... But none of those things made me physically go to a forum to complain despite talking to my friends about them all the time. I'd reckon there are just as many people who dislike the game but don't talk about it as there are people who are happy with the game and don't talk about it. Then you have the small minority of really angry people who talk about it and the really happy people who talk about that.

I will never fully understand why people hate Cataclysm raids... the only poorly done one in my view was Dragon Soul and that was due to the fact it reused environments that we'd already seen for the raid. It still had redeeming qualities, though. Riding Deathwing's back was an interesting and memorable mechanic.