New Class Prediction: Necromancer

[Enkrypt]

New Prediction: No class being added until 9.0, because we just got one.

I freakin' hate it when the players of a game are so entitled they literally ask for shit on a platter AND get hyped about it. What appeal would Necros have that DKs/Warlocks don't already cover? Raise undead? Check. Bone armor? Check. Sumons demonic/undead minions? Check. Is dead? Check. Siphons life from enemies? Check. Long story short, Necromancer as a class would be utter shit because (wait for it) we have them already in the form of a DK.

Newer Prediction: Next class added will not be a Necromancer/Dead-raising/Dead theme.

Dark Ranger? Seriously, do you guys just stare at Diablo classes and pretend it'll be added to World of Warcraft? Dark Ranger sounds awful.

[Wildberry]

I freakin' hate it when double-digit posters come in and make some ridiculous argument that had been debunked pages ago.

[Enkrypt]

I freakin' hate it when double-digit posters come in and make some ridiculous argument that had been debunked pages ago.

Are you talking at me, troll?

Explain why my statement about Necromancers is "ridiculous" and show me where you debunked anything instead of being a vague, trolly neckbeard that thinks his 8,200+ posts on MMO-C is a status worthy of being proud. I won't hold my breath.

infracted

[Wildberry]

Are you talking at me, troll?

Explain why my statement about Necromancers is "ridiculous" and show me where you debunked anything instead of being a vague, trolly neckbeard that thinks his 8,200+ posts on MMO-C is a status worthy of being proud. I won't hold my breath.

Did I claim to have personally debunked your claims? Would you mind finding that quote for me? Here's what I'm talking about though:

Holy Paladin make sense despite Priests covering the entire theme of holy healing. Warlocks had Metamorphosis and Rogues could wield Warglaives of Azzinoth, but it still made sense to add Demon Hunters.

Unholy DK can also have its mechanics and abilities changed to have a Necro fit. It's not like it's never happened before; Unholy DK was a a completely different beast in Wrath compared to what it looks like today. A Necro can also have more focus on other types of undead that the DK doesn't already cover, similar to how Paladins focus on different elements of Holy magic that a Priest doesn't use (Angels vs generic Spirit Healer).

Necromancers do not need to be undead themselves either, which already differentiates themselves greatly from DK's who originate as champions of the scourge. We'd get a different perspective from playing a character that controls undead from the outside rather than controlling them through innate powers granted by the Lich King. A Necromancer isn't a commander of an army the way a Death Knight is. They're puppetmasters who overwhelm opponents and fight with attrition, similar to Warlocks but with a lot more subtlety.

Saying things like 'it doesn't make sense' only shows that it doesn't make sense for you. The Necromancer archetype has existed in Warcraft since the first game, and has worked in tandem with Death Knights in the exact same way Priests and Paladins existed in the RTS and in WoW; and now the Warlock and Demon Hunter. There's literally no difference in how these classes overlap in themes and mechanics.

Now, if you'd like to disagree with the above, go ahead and make a post responding to those arguments. Don't just come in with some "oh-so-brilliant" opinion that's already been posted multiple times in every single Necromancer thread.

[Hitei]

Explain why my statement about Necromancers is "ridiculous" and show me where you debunked anything.

I mean, you could just glance through the last page or two before you post.

New Prediction: No class being added until 9.0, because we just got one.

I freakin' hate it when the players of a game are so entitled they literally ask for shit on a platter AND get hyped about it. What appeal would Necros have that DKs/Warlocks don't already cover?

A Necromancer in Warcraft is a robed caster who utilizes Death, Shadow, Blood and Poison magic to debilitate and wipe out foes, while summoning the undead to keep enemies busy and distracted and themselves out of harms way.

A Death Knight in Warcraft is a heavily armored, undead knight, raised from death by Necromancy, who utilizes Death, Shadow Blood and Frost magic to further strengthen his already mighty martial prowess, wading into combat to strike down foes with an unholy runeblade, while summoning undead to fight alongside themselves.

Let us break down those differences:

A Necromancer in Warcraft is not a knight.
A Necromancer is usually not undead, but can be (just as mages and warriors can be).
A Necromancer does not fight on the front lines.
A Necromancer does not wear heavy armor.
A Necromancer does not use a runeblade or runes, one of the single most iconic and core features of the Death Knight fantasy.
A Necromancer uses poisons and curses to great effect, summoning waves and eruptions and pools and novas.
A Necromancer has very little if any martial ability.
A Necromancer utilizes bone-based magic and summoning far more than Death Knights.
A Necromancer can use blood magic to empower and heal others rather than themself.
A Necromancer summons ghosts, wraiths, bone golems, specters, etc.
A Necromancer constantly summons an unceasing wave of low-health, temporary skeletal minions--this is the iconic ability of a Necromancer, which DKs do not have.
A Necromancer doesn't just attack the soul, they can rip it out to weaken enemies, call to the souls of the fallen to attack, harvest them to heal and empower, etc, etc.
A Necromancer is far more adept at weaving and using diseases to devastating effect.
A Necromancer can create Plague Cauldrons.
A Necromancer can become a Lich. Not use a simple spell named after them to counter feel, but become an actual, powerful skeletal magic user.
A Necromancer has an extremely iconic look, dress, and facial appearance, both for males and females. Which is nothing like what Death Knights look like.
A Necromancer without their magic and minions is a sitting duck.

Also:

What appeal would Priests have that Paladins don't already cover? Holy healing? Check. Holy Shields? Check. Smites enemies? Check. Can cleanse? Check. Can call down holy fire? Check. Long story short, Priest as a class would be utter shit because (wait for it) we have them already in the form of a Paladin.

What appeal would Demon Hunters have that Rogues/Warlocks don't already cover? Uses fel fire? Check. Demonic powers? Check. Evasive agile fighter? Check. High mobility? Check. Siphons souls from enemies? Check. Long story short, Demon Hunters as a class would be utter shit because (wait for it) we have them already in the form of a Warlock.

What appeal would Fire Mages have that Warlocks don't already cover? Set people on Fire? Check. Call down fire on entire areas? Check. Hurl flames at enemies? Check. Use fire to boost movement? Check. Summon apparitions of fire? Check. Long story short, Fire Mages as a spec would be utter shit because (wait for it) we have them already in the form of a Destro Warlock.

[Perkunas]

I don't know why people are saying this forth spec thing. The only likely 4th specs are Fistwearer and Gladiator warrior, because blizz said they like them and only removed them because of artifacts.

I think a void class is more likely than necromancer though. Alleria seems unique and they are playing up ethereals. More places to go besides the shadow Preist void.

I was saying in terms of what's more plausible between a whole new class that has way too many overlaps with the Death Knight class and adding 4th specs to the game that the latter would be. I love Necromancers, but Blizzard gave far too many iconic abilities to the DK as it stands and they'd have to almost totally rework their spells and shift them from plate-wearing Necro to proper Shadow Knight. They'd basically have to rework curses blood magic, unholy. About the only thing that the Necro wouldn't infringe on is Frost spec.

[Wildberry]

I was saying in terms of what's more plausible between a whole new class that has way too many overlaps with the Death Knight class and adding 4th specs to the game that the latter would be.

So, you're under the impression that it's more plausible for them to add 11-12 new specs to the game? You actually believe that adding the equivalent of ~4 classes is more plausible than Necromancers?

I love Necromancers, but Blizzard gave far too many iconic abilities to the DK as it stands and they'd have to almost totally rework their spells and shift them from plate-wearing Necro to proper Shadow Knight. They'd basically have to rework curses blood magic, unholy. About the only thing that the Necro wouldn't infringe on is Frost spec

The anti-Necromancer argument is really just a weaker, reskinned version of the anti-Demon Hunter argument. They're exactly the same. Plenty of people thus far have pointed out that there's a plethora of room to add Necromancers that would, at most, require minor DK tweaks.

[Rhamses]

And yet unique gameplay. That's all it takes.

It takes a bit more than that, especially given that many people felt that Monks and Demon Hunters took too much from existing classes. Doing it again with a class that is thematically similar to Warlocks and Death Knights is only going to exacerbate the "samey" feeling that people are experiencing from existing classes. Not to mention make DK and Warlock players feel cheated out of design space.

There's nothing about a frost mage that would be out of place on a Frost DK, or either of Priest's holy specs that would be out of place on a Paladin.
There's nothing about DH that would be out of place on a Warlock.

Water Elementals would be out of place for Frost DKs. Priests can use Shadow Magic, Paladins cannot. Warlocks can summon demons, Demon Hunters cannot.

What's important isn't shared thematic, which is everywhere (Mistweaver/RestoSham) it's about how the class stands out mechanically and rotationally. There isn't anything like Necromancer in the game currently. There are just a couple classes that share thematics.

Warlocks are mechanically and rotationally similar to Necromancer concepts, especially Demonology.

[Perkunas]

So, you're under the impression that it's more plausible for them to add 11-12 new specs to the game? You actually believe that adding the equivalent of ~4 classes is more plausible than Necromancers?



The anti-Necromancer argument is really just a weaker, reskinned version of the anti-Demon Hunter argument. They're exactly the same. Plenty of people thus far have pointed out that there's a plethora of room to add Necromancers that would, at most, require minor DK tweaks.

My personal opinion is that the Blizzard Death Knight is too similar to a classic Necromancer without a major reworking to be more close to the Shadow Knight/Doom Knight archetype. Lift the sigils from Demon Hunters and give them to DK's to play on their rune blades. Frost is about the only tree that wouldn't have overlap. The only thing I could feasibly see is them reworking diseases into debuff auras. Frankly, I think the Demon Hunter is an example of exactly what you don't want to do. They gutted the playstyle of one of the most iconic specs in the game to make room for it. It's like they clipped Survival in preparation of something. "It was too similar to Marks!" even though it played nothing like Marks from Cata through MoP.

[Hitei]

It takes a bit more than that, especially given that many people felt that Monks and Demon Hunters took too much from existing classes. Doing it again with a class that is thematically similar to Warlocks and Death Knights is only going to exacerbate the "samey" feeling that people are experiencing from existing classes. Not to mention make DK and Warlock players feel cheated out of design space.



Water Elementals would be out of place for Frost DKs. Priests can use Shadow Magic, Paladins cannot. Warlocks can summon demons, Demon Hunters cannot.



Warlocks are mechanically and rotationally similar to Necromancer concepts, especially Demonology.

It doesn't though, and you're somewhat proving my point.

The differences between those classes/specs comes down to a handful of spells.
Frost elementals would not be out of place on a Frost DK, at all. Water elementals feel tangential even to Frost Mages--the entire rest of the spec is about frost and snow and cold, why are they summoning water elementals instead of ice ones--but whatever. Shadow Priests use Shadow Magic. Regular priests use almost none (in lore they use pretty much zero). A Holy priest in Legion has no offensive shadow spells (just Mind Control). A Disc priest has one shadow spell unless they take the more thematically appropriate Purge the Wicked, in which case they too have none.

This is what I am talking about. There are a couple spells here and there that separate these things thematically. Now let's look at Necromancers and Death Knights:

Necromancers use poison magic. Death Knights do not.

Immediately that is enough considering the above examples. A couple poison spells or a plague/poison spec is immediately enough of a difference to make Necromacners to Death Knights what Priests are to Paladins.

But let's continue:

Necromancers summon bone golems, bone wraiths, ghosts, spirits and spectres. Death Knights cannot.
Necromancers can properly heal allies. Death Knights cannot.
Necromancers can curse enemies. Death Knights cannot.
Necromancers can pull a fragment of a person's soul out of their body and cause it to attack or consume it to heal. Death Knights Cannot.
Necromancers can summon plague cauldrons. Death Knights cannot.
Necromancers can become Liches. Death Knights cannot.
Necromancers can chain summon skeletons. Death Knights cannot.

[KayRule]

We will sadly never get proper Necromancers due to so much of it being covered by other classes. Same reason we'll never get Runemasters.

Blizzard would love to do it but the fanbase would scream and cry and BITCH and call it lazy because of the overlap.

[Wildberry]

My personal opinion is that the Blizzard Death Knight is too similar to a classic Necromancer without a major reworking to be more close to the Shadow Knight/Doom Knight archetype.

But that's just objectively not true. I mean, even ignoring the obvious mechanical differences between a Death Knight and a hypothetical Necromancer, there are a number of themes and elements of the Scourge that Death Knights simply don't touch. Beyond that, there are a number of other Scourge-themes that are barely utilized by Death Knights and, while they most likely wouldn't be removed, their removal wouldn't be majorly impactful upon Death Knights. Then, a good chunk of the entire base DK kit has been rotting on the cutting room floor, considering just how much was lost in Cataclysm and during pruning. Those themes and mechanics, which are now absent from DKs could be perfectly utilized by another class.

There's plenty of room thematically for Necromancers, there are a number of different specs that really wouldn't collide terribly much with Death Knights. Beyond that, let's look at Death Knights in particular. The blood overlap is simply ridiculous, so I'll just move past that. Unholy, on the other hand, does raise the dead, and does use diseases. Here's the problem: Unholy interacts with one pet, there's no active interaction with AotD. Unholy, beyond being the token "summoning spec," also needs to fulfill the themes of plague and disease. They initially had 7 debuffs, they now have 1. Unholy, historically, has always been on a tightrope, unable to fully embrace either summoning or disease; however, the removal of 2h Frost has pulled Unholy in a third direction. Now the Spec has to deliver on the "Hard hitting 2h Runeblade" fantasy. It's simply too much be unpacked by a single spec.

Frankly, I think the Demon Hunter is an example of exactly what you don't want to do.

Doesn't matter, Blizzard now has a precedent of doing just that. Not to mention, the overlap between DHs and Demo was much more severe than Unholy and Necromancers.

[Perkunas]

Wild, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I actually love the archetype and would totally be in favor of it being in the game. I simply think that with the backlash they've gotten from Demo Locks and Survival Hunters already they'd likely want to avoid that situation in the near future.

[Steampunkette]

We will sadly never get proper Necromancers due to so much of it being covered by other classes. Same reason we'll never get Runemasters.

Blizzard would love to do it but the fanbase would scream and cry and BITCH and call it lazy because of the overlap.

I think some of the fan base would bitch. I think some of the fan base would cheer. I think a lot of the fan base would be all "Ooooo... new class!" without a care to it's origins, story, or perceived overlap. And the rest, about half the playerbase, would be kinda neutral toward it, either playing it or not, like they do with every class. They might roll a Necro alt like they did with DKs and Monks and DHs before going back to their main.

I think the outcry would come, like the praise, from a vocal minority outnumbered by both other groups. But since the vocally positive group and the neutral group and the group uninterested in debate when a new class be omes available would be willing to at least alt... it'd result in a net gain of playtime cash in the devs pockets.

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Wild, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I actually love the archetype and would totally be in favor of it being in the game. I simply think that with the backlash they've gotten from Demo Locks and Survival Hunters already they'd likely want to avoid that situation in the near future.

They get that backlash with every change. The number of players trying the specs is more important than how loud a section of the playerbase is.

[Hitei]

Wild, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I actually love the archetype and would totally be in favor of it being in the game. I simply think that with the backlash they've gotten from Demo Locks and Survival Hunters already they'd likely want to avoid that situation in the near future.

I'd say Demos are more upset at their gameplay completely switching to a form many dislike than the existence of DHs. And that logic isn't really applicable to the Necro/DK situation. The issues with Demo arose from Demonology having the defining, iconic ability of Demon Hunters, and some of its lesser features as well (immolation/aura). This is not the case with Necromancers, whose defining, iconic ability is, again, raising two skeletons for 40 seconds on an 8 second CD--that is, a constant steady stream of minor skeletal undead.

So you won't see a repeat of what happened with DH. Unholy need not change in the slightest.

[Amnaught]

We're more likely to get 4th specs before we see a Necromancer class in game. It saddens me as this is one of my favorite archetypes.

I'd love for necromancer to be a fourth spec for Warlocks or Priests. Unholy Death Knights aren't cutting it for me.

[Darkhallows]

I want Tinkers more than I want like, actually anything in WoW, but a Necromancer would be amazing if it also came with a dark-themed healing spec. The next class *absolutely* needs to be ranged though, no matter what it is.

[Wildberry]

Wild, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I actually love the archetype and would totally be in favor of it being in the game. I simply think that with the backlash they've gotten from Demo Locks and Survival Hunters already they'd likely want to avoid that situation in the near future.

I did see you state that you liked Necromancers earlier. I just don't think the anti-Necromancer arguments hold much water at all. I mean, there's clearly more untouched design space, than there was with Demon Hunters, and far fewer things would have to be ripped from an existing class. So it essentially comes down to a less potent anti-DH argument. With regard to Demon Hunters, I've not seen anything on Blizzard's end (And perhaps I just haven't been paying attention) to suggest that they regret what they did to Demo to make way for DHs.

Not sure how Survival is relevant though.

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I'd love for necromancer to be a fourth spec for Warlocks or Priests. Unholy Death Knights aren't cutting it for me.

A "Necromancy" spec wouldn't be a good fit though, and would largely do a disservice to Necromancers. The theme is far too broad to be canned into a single spec. It would feel "crowded." Ironically, that would make it a carbon copy of Unholy.

[bufferunderrun]

I did see you state that you liked Necromancers earlier. I just don't think the anti-Necromancer arguments hold much water at all. I mean, there's clearly more untouched design space, than there was with Demon Hunters, and far fewer things would have to be ripped from an existing class. So it essentially comes down to a less potent anti-DH argument. With regard to Demon Hunters, I've not seen anything on Blizzard's end (And perhaps I just haven't been paying attention) to suggest that they regret what they did to Demo to make way for DHs.

Not sure how Survival is relevant though.

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A "Necromancy" spec wouldn't be a good fit though, and would largely do a disservice to Necromancers. The theme is far too broad to be canned into a single spec. It would feel "crowded." Ironically, that would make it a carbon copy of Unholy.

to make a necro really different than a dk they need to rely heavily on pets on a level completely different than the usual 20% damage done by the regular standard pets BM, Demo, Unholy DK and Frost mage have; now do you really think they would make a class that go around with 10 permanent pets and could summon even more like the rathma necro we see in d3 and before it d2?

Necro is a fantastic class and one of the basic fantasy one but for balance reason is hardly ever implemented into mmos because devs dreads pets, i would love to play one but i fear the final result would be just a reskinned affliction warlock with a strong pet skeleton.

[Darkhallows]

Name 1... ONE FCKING NECROMANCER. Now that you throw me wall of text and being so confident.

Go.

I mean, I can handle this. Gothik the Harvester? Heigan the Unclean? The guy in the DK Order Hall who summons the Ghouls/Geists for you?

Any Lich prior to and after their death?

(That would be a really interesting Necromancer talent/ability, to become a Lich temporarily on death)