8.0 Paladin Hopes, Fantasies, Guesses?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Ooo, well, having it compete with Crusade kinda crushes my soul. I'm sure we're gonna see plenty of iterations, though.

Yeah right, "compete" with Crusade.

[Kalisandra]

Hand of Freedom is already at a 45 second CD now it seems.

But it mentions recharge, so maybe it's on charges at least now...
http://www.wowhead.com/news=275396/b...-floor#paladin

Whioch means even worse sustained movement in exchange for forcing mages to hit Spellsteal twice. Great trade-off. Really.

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What I want for ret:
- Hammer of Wrath
- Pursuit of Justice
- New mastery so we can get rid of colossus smash

Overall:
- Seals
- Auras

What I want - late Cata Ret back. I wasn't a fan of Inquisition, but I'll take it as part of the package in order to have the rest. Good movement, ranged damage, some passive survivability, good off-healing, decent damage... Late Mists will do instead.

[GildedWings]

Man, I forgot about Inquisition's existence. Glad that went the way of the dodo. That said, the actual capabilities and gameplay of the spec at the time were pretty snazzy in Cataclysm. Here's hoping for fun new abilities.

[therealbowser]

Honestly, I hope they focus less on new abilities and more on class balance. That said, I do kind of want to keep Wake of Ash as a baseline ability, alongside the other artifact abilities.

[Kalisandra]

Honestly, I hope they focus less on new abilities and more on class balance. That said, I do kind of want to keep Wake of Ash as a baseline ability, alongside the other artifact abilities.

I don't want new abilities. I want my old ones back. I want Pursuit of Justice (the original constant +20% runspeed version) at the very least, and ideally Long Arm of the Law as well (i.e. the combination we had in Cata). I want my instant Repentance back, from before when they let Holy get it and then started nerfing the fuck out of it.

Back in BC and LK Ret had one of the higher sustained movement rates, some of the best CC, considerable CC resistance, and a sort of mortal strike, countered by no closer or interrupt. Ret lost the MS equivalent (it reduced the maximum health of the target) and got an interrupt. Ret lost all that CC resistance, and got nothing. Ret's lost much of its CC, and other classes still have more despite 'pruning' (it hit Paladins a lot harder than most classes). And in Legion Paladins lost most of their mobility, especially Ret. Ret has the least CC it's ever had (equal with WoD) and the worst mobility it's ever had (equal with vanilla, maybe). It's sure as hell not got the most survivability its ever had, relatively speaking (that would probably be BC, possibly late Cata), and it's certainly not got the best damage either sustained or burst (early-mid LK for burst and possibly late Cata, late LK for sustained).

So, I want my old stuff back. Then I might come back to my Paladin. Right now it feels like I'm playing BC and everyone else is playing MoP.

[Kelemar]

I don't want new abilities. I want my old ones back. I want Pursuit of Justice (the original constant +20% runspeed version) at the very least, and ideally Long Arm of the Law as well (i.e. the combination we had in Cata). I want my instant Repentance back, from before when they let Holy get it and then started nerfing the fuck out of it.

Back in BC and LK Ret had one of the higher sustained movement rates, some of the best CC, considerable CC resistance, and a sort of mortal strike, countered by no closer or interrupt. Ret lost the MS equivalent (it reduced the maximum health of the target) and got an interrupt. Ret lost all that CC resistance, and got nothing. Ret's lost much of its CC, and other classes still have more despite 'pruning' (it hit Paladins a lot harder than most classes). And in Legion Paladins lost most of their mobility, especially Ret. Ret has the least CC it's ever had (equal with WoD) and the worst mobility it's ever had (equal with vanilla, maybe). It's sure as hell not got the most survivability its ever had, relatively speaking (that would probably be BC, possibly late Cata), and it's certainly not got the best damage either sustained or burst (early-mid LK for burst and possibly late Cata, late LK for sustained).

So, I want my old stuff back. Then I might come back to my Paladin. Right now it feels like I'm playing BC and everyone else is playing MoP.

As far as I remember, PoJ was never +20%. In the final patches of BC, PoJ was 5% per rank (3 ranks) and in WotLK/Cata it was 8%/15% (2 ranks). Later the additional 5% speed per Holy Power was added.

Also, what kind of Mortal Strike are you talking about? Never heard of that before. We did have Vindication in BC, which reduced the targets stats by 15%, but that changed to reducing attack power in WotLK and was completely removed in Cataclysm.

Still, I agree. We've lost so much over the years regarding our personal survivability.

* Hand of Freedom castable while stunned
* Hand of Freedom removing Stuns
* Sacred Shield
* Instant Flash of Light
* A Heal over Time on FoL crits
* Repentance
* Emancipate
* Pursuit of Justice
* Divine Protection
* 30% Stun duration reduction (Stoicism in WotLK)
* 30% Fear/Disorient reduction (Unyielding Faith in WotLK)
* 30% Dispell protection
* Even Righteous Fury as a fodder buff against spellsteal

As I said, these are only regarding personal survivability. The list goes on for our output potential (such as DoT on Crits and Seal of Vengeance/Corruption).

I wonder how we have arrived at this point, basically being a bare bones Paladin from old, and no developer ever realizing it. Just imagine if we had instant FoL, Sacred Shield (not dispellable) and instant Repentance today in PvP. But alas, it is apparently not to be.

[tru]

Since Artifacts are being removed.

Replace Holy Wrath with Wake of Ashes as a talent. At the VERY least. And tune appropriately of course, but it has the potential to be a good replacement if done right.

We lose the weapon.... makes sense to keep the weapon skill eh

[Easo]

Hammer of Wrath. Would make at least the tanking a bit more different during execute phase.
Auras (well, one...) are back, yay! Classic paladin icon.

And I WILL dress my paladin into that sweet sweet Alliance warfront armour.

[Kalisandra]

Also, what kind of Mortal Strike are you talking about? Never heard of that before. We did have Vindication in BC, which reduced the targets stats by 15%, but that changed to reducing attack power in WotLK and was completely removed in Cataclysm.

That's the one. It didn't reduce AP until part-way through LK. 15% reduction in stats also affected Health, resulting in a 10-12% reduction in overall health, which makes a fair bit of difference when some Ret has just stunned you and is now hammering on you with Wings up.

I wonder how we have arrived at this point, basically being a bare bones Paladin from old, and no developer ever realizing it. Just imagine if we had instant FoL, Sacred Shield (not dispellable) and instant Repentance today in PvP. But alas, it is apparently not to be.

We don't even have Hammer of Wrath any more, the second-oldest execute in the game. Of course, in the day this was a casted (0.5s, IIRC) ability so you had to stand still to use it, but it was still really useful. Remember when mobs would routinely run? HoW was a godsend when that happened.

[Kelemar]

That's the one. It didn't reduce AP until part-way through LK. 15% reduction in stats also affected Health, resulting in a 10-12% reduction in overall health, which makes a fair bit of difference when some Ret has just stunned you and is now hammering on you with Wings up.
We don't even have Hammer of Wrath any more, the second-oldest execute in the game. Of course, in the day this was a casted (0.5s, IIRC) ability so you had to stand still to use it, but it was still really useful. Remember when mobs would routinely run? HoW was a godsend when that happened.

Yeah. Bummer the class designers are apparently so out of touch. You don't just hear the usual "give DPS buff pls" from every class as it always is, but also that the classes play bad, the tier bonuses are boring etc. Don't know if it's just me, but I've never found it to be as prevalent as it is now in Legion.

[Kalisandra]

It certainly more common in the Paladin hangouts, with respect to PvE. PvP has always had a lot of complaints about play style, utility, etc., but it's rare for PvE to have such strong issues. Last time it was this bad for Paladins was (IMO) early Cataclysm, when Holy Power was news, and Ret's Mastery was dysfunctional. It's been the norm for DPS Shamans since forever, because until Legion Enhance's rotation has tended to be a hot mess, and Elemental has all too often just plain sucked all over.

As for Tier bonuses, the overall impression is that the T21 bonuses are boring, bad, or both, for just about everyone.

[Ryuji]

Honestly, I hope they focus less on new abilities and more on class balance. That said, I do kind of want to keep Wake of Ash as a baseline ability, alongside the other artifact abilities.

Well then good/bad news!

http://www.wowhead.com/bfa-talent-ca...in/retribution

On the show floor demo, it's still there! It...just replaced Holy Wrath and we still have Divine Purpose and Crusade as the other options so no one will pick it since Crusade is likely going to stay strong. Though this is pre-alpha junk so hopefully they'll just bake it in baseline(I hope).

[Shelly]

What I'd like:

Wake of Ashes baseline, not as a talent but truly baseline. It's too useful when resetting the rhythm right now with judgment windows.

CS turns into HoW during wings - vastly increases the damage done and generates 1 additional holy power.

Long Arm returns.

That's about it really, I like where Ret is now and how our mastery works, just want hammer back and to keep our rotation smooth.

Oh wait, almost forgot - crank our spell effects up to 11 again. BoW is nice but change hammers to say randomly shoot up Blades when enemies get near. Make us look more golden and really shoot out sparks when the rubber hits the road.

[Reith]

One can only hope.

Atleast Holy wrath is gone, that's progress i guess *worried smile*

That's going to be the crux on which they don't do much else with ret. "We already removed Holy Wrath for you, asking for anything else is just too much."

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Hand of Freedom is already at a 45 second CD now it seems.

But it mentions recharge, so maybe it's on charges at least now...
http://www.wowhead.com/news=275396/b...-floor#paladin

And just think, ret used to have a talent to have 2 charges on a 25 second Freedom... :|

[Deleted]

Frankly, Ret was effectively a shockadin from mid-Cata through WoD, aside from not having Holy Shock. Then they gutted our ranged...

Exorcism is not shockadin. I know what you are getting at but shockadin was so broken because of exo procs, sheath if light hots, and holy shock being as powerful as it was under wings and pot.

Melee damage of holy paladins was laughable but the spell damage was pretty impressive. That's really not the case anymore sadly.

And I also agree that removal of ranged spells from retribution arsenal was an unnecessary change as we didn't get anything in return.

A lot of good abilities have been pruned over the years under the guise of "balance" and we didn't really get back anything of substance to make game play in PvP enjoyable.

Blizzard should have sat down and asked themselves why were people spending into ret holy or protribution in the first place.

I do miss the freedom the old talent trees gave you. But I doubt we will ever go back to that model, so now it's all about cookie cutter builds.

[Lightbull]

I want a bit more mobility in the form of a gap closer or run speed over a longer duration.

Current Judgment is cool, but I'd like to see something that triggers Long Arm of the Law. Maybe just make it an active spell.

EDIT: I'd also like to see the Hammer of Wrath playstyle return. HoW doesn't necessarily need to come back, just the playstyle. Maybe the old Crusade changes that were planned could make a return in some way.

[Lumineus]

I dunno what you guys are on about with this Crusade business. Unless they buff wings duration it's going to be a dead talent.

[Dakara]

I don't think we need much for 8.0

Just a total overhaul of all 3 specs... from scratch. Oh, and eye lazers for Ret.

[Unholyground]

Divine Pursuit was sweet. I miss it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I dunno what you guys are on about with this Crusade business. Unless they buff wings duration it's going to be a dead talent.

disregard Crusade, 1 proc from DP will override the active part of WoA as far as HoPo generation goes.
2-3 procs will surely override WoA damage unless WoA will hit like Sargeras dual wielding Broxigars who dual wield Dual power chainfists.
In other words, WoA is going to be inferior.