"We're not looking to add a bunch of abilities" - class design is DEAD

[corebit]

You mean that thing that was removed almost immediately after launch?

Debuff cap was never removed in vanilla. It was extended from 8 -> 16 slots in a patch, but this increase made almost no difference in a raid of 40 people.

[tss]

Debuff cap was never removed in vanilla. It was extended from 8 -> 16 slots in a patch, but this increase made almost no difference in a raid of 40 people.

On the contrary, it at least made the token shadow priest slot open up in raids, and at least one other spec I can't remember. I remember the priest politics around the ZG patch on Nost.

[Yhcti]

to be honest, the only exciting things about new expansions for me is class revamp or classes getting new spells or amended spells to try out. Going into it with the exact same spells as previous expo is kinda "meh"... only plus side is my affliction warlock will still be a world content god.

[Lahis]

I'll gladly take well defined rotation with reasonable amount of abilities over a fucking piano.

[-aiko-]

Well, it is kind of a problem to continually add more and more abilities each expansion. It's what leads to pruning.

So while I'm a little sad to not have any new abilities to look forward to, I understand their position. Also, you don't need new abilities to re-design a class.

[The Archmage]

Well, it is kind of a problem to continually add more and more abilities each expansion. It's what leads to pruning.

So while I'm a little sad to not have any new abilities to look forward to, I understand their position. Also, you don't need new abilities to re-design a class.

I completely agree. I think Legion has already made some of the best changes we have seen to classes in a long time. Of course, they are not perfect and could be improved, but this simple statement can be applied to everything in life.

I think it is foolish to demand a complete class redesign every expansion, as well as adding more abilities or avoiding make artifact abilities into talents: those are all actions taken thowards the goal of keeping the healthy numbers of variables necessary to achieve a satisfying class balance, that has never been better then it is now in Legion. So much so that what is threatening class balance now is utility, and no longer unviable dps output.

I don't really like the raid buffs back, is a button that i hardly felt necessary (and that i will have to recast everytime i take a portal, i respawn from anywhere, i get ressed during a bg and thus delay my mounting to join the fight, ecc...), but it is a minor thing compared to class balance and satisfying gameplay.

[Deleted]

I personally like what they did with class design in 7.0. To be perfectly honest with you, I think it was one of the most refreshing change they made in any expansion.

They also didn't say that they wouldn't add anything else. They just said they aren't going to add a bunch of spells. And why would they, if it isn't needed?

No, they destroyed to many speccs (sub rogue, survival, demo lock.)

[h4rr0d]

I'd like more talents that replace abilities.
I mean, as Arms I'd rather Cleave, Whirlwind, Warbreaker and Bladestorm (and others like Shockwave) be mutually exclusive but more powerful to compensate--that way fighting each Arms Warrior would be different.

No it wouldn't. There'd be gimped RPers and then everyone else just using the same cookie cutter build.
Blizz has had this hardon for compelling talent choices for at least 3 expansions now, but every single time it boils down to a cookie cutter build for whatever the hell you are doing/fighting right now. Either because one of the talents is OP, or because the other two are trash, or because the talent fixes an issue the spec has and it wouldn't be as playable without taking the talent. Together with respec books, what this created (changing talents before every other boss) is tedious to say the very least.
Honestly at this point I think they should just get rid of talents altogether and bake the most important ones into the classes.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Honestly at this point I think they should just get rid of talents altogether and bake the most important ones into the classes.

amen, then classes might finally start to feel more complete again

[Leih]

"We don't plan to add a bunch of abilities" doesn't equate to "We aren't planning to change classes at all."

It sounds like they just don't plan to add a bunch of new shit you get for levelling up, but they'll still likely do some balance tuning and tweak/change/remove some abilities to improve existing rotations. They will have to take a look at every class to make sure they work okay without artifacts anyway, and bake in some of the artifact spells and traits.

[Deleted]

i think some classes are fine tho

[leafsip]

https://youtu.be/FOkw1BSzBKI?t=9m32s

What the fuck? After all the shit these monkeys went through trying to fix classes in the 7.x.5 patches because their launch class design was so trash, they want to keep what they have now? We get no new spells even though we are 10 levels higher, we lose our artifact abilities and traits, we lose being able to swap legendaries depending on the scenario.

Wtf is left in a class? There's no depth, no customization, and the heart of azeroth gear looks like it's just what minor artifact traits would be (so no gameplay changing traits). They managed to take the most dumbed-down classes since early WoW and strip them even further, it's pathetic.

How can any self-respecting designer look at what they did to the classes in 7.0 and say to themselves "yep, i'm proud of my work"? They are incompetent, arrogant, and worst of all, stubborn people. Will they even have class feedback threads this alpha/beta? What's the point if we're giving feedback on legion classes (that still have valid criticism from fucking beta)?

You heard it from the horses mouth: They LIKE how classes play

The amulet will act exactly like major artifact traits AND legendaries combined, allowing US to customise and target pieces we like.

Also, buffs and stuffs are coming back.

Don't exaggerate.

[Deleted]

https://youtu.be/FOkw1BSzBKI?t=9m32s

What the fuck? After all the shit these monkeys went through trying to fix classes in the 7.x.5 patches because their launch class design was so trash, they want to keep what they have now? We get no new spells even though we are 10 levels higher, we lose our artifact abilities and traits, we lose being able to swap legendaries depending on the scenario.

Nah, some old abilities are back judging from alpha on Blizzcon. Class buffs are back. Artifact abilities are (at least some of them) added as talents, some aare just baked into specs. Others were just +3% this ability or 2% crit on that, so irrelevant. We also get the azerite armor modifications = additional choice.

So it's not all bad, I wouldn't lose my shit at this point yet.

[EternalBany]

The problem is too many abilities make playing a class tedious - I don't want to use 9 different abilities for a basic rotation

that is not black and white
Ret paladins dont have too many or too little, but their design results in a BORING playing experience, its utter shit from a class that is slow and dull at its core to begin with. I always played them but this xpack it trully is a sooze fest

[Barnabas]

https://youtu.be/FOkw1BSzBKI?t=9m32s

What the fuck? After all the shit these monkeys went through trying to fix classes in the 7.x.5 patches because their launch class design was so trash, they want to keep what they have now? We get no new spells even though we are 10 levels higher, we lose our artifact abilities and traits, we lose being able to swap legendaries depending on the scenario.

Wtf is left in a class? There's no depth, no customization, and the heart of azeroth gear looks like it's just what minor artifact traits would be (so no gameplay changing traits). They managed to take the most dumbed-down classes since early WoW and strip them even further, it's pathetic.

How can any self-respecting designer look at what they did to the classes in 7.0 and say to themselves "yep, i'm proud of my work"? They are incompetent, arrogant, and worst of all, stubborn people. Will they even have class feedback threads this alpha/beta? What's the point if we're giving feedback on legion classes (that still have valid criticism from fucking beta)?

You heard it from the horses mouth: They LIKE how classes play

You'll regain those spells in the time you gain 10 new levels.

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that is not black and white
Ret paladins dont have too many or too little, but their design results in a BORING playing experience, its utter shit from a class that is slow and dull at its core to begin with. I always played them but this xpack it trully is a sooze fest

When you have 2 other specs to choose from that work quite well?

[Deleted]

What's the big deal, having 30 abilities that do the same damn thing is stupid and only makes them all weaker due to tuning.
Case in point: Havoc Dh.

If you completely ignore talents, you get an AoE proc on Chaos Strike, Blade Dance, Fel Rush, Throw Glaive, Eye Beam and Fury of the Illidari.
That's 6 sources of aoe, that goes up to 8 if you choose some talents. Now look at DH's cleave on progression in ToS.

If anything, we need some redesigns and a bit more pure combat abilities pruning with utility abilities coming back as they should.

[Nyel]

I kinda agree. Our specs are built around our artefacts. Without them they’re boring as fuck, at least ret is.

I suppose we have to wait and see what gets kept and what gets thrown out.

It's a very weird and questionable design purpose: we create all the (great/less great) artifacts with their traits for ONE (!!!!) expansion and we are going to remove nearly all of it in the next expansion? Wtf.

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WoW is an MMO though, not some MOBA.
The class design in WoD and Legion is a joke compared to what it used to be.

I'm not super happy about having to play the same lackluster specs in yet another expantion.

WoD class design was quite underwhelming but compared to Legion it has been top notch. That's the sad thing here.

[Ragnarocket]

No, they destroyed to many speccs (sub rogue, survival, demo lock.)

I must be like the only person who likes the new survival...

Marksman and Survival used to be fairly similar specs, now they are vastly different. Is the problem that you don't want to be a melee hunter or do you actually have a problem with the spec itself? I actually like the gameplay of balancing the Mok'Nathal and getting in a good Mongoose Bite window.

[krl]

We have braindead specs, simple or complex rotation specs, random specs, burst specs, rampup specs, range, melee...

There are specs for everyone and every taste except maybe for people who liked macroing half their abilities in a single keypress. That shit is definitely gone and it's a good thing. Pruning is a lame complaint.

The problem comes from matching a spec fantasy you want with a gameplay you enjoy. I play Elem as an offspec for the spec fantasy, hate its atrocious random gameplay.

[Deleted]

We have braindead specs, simple or complex rotation specs, random specs, burst specs, rampup specs, range, melee...

There are specs for everyone and every taste except maybe for people who liked macroing half their abilities in a single keypress. That shit is definitely gone and it's a good thing. Pruning is a lame complaint.

The problem comes from matching a spec fantasy you want with a gameplay you enjoy. I play Elem as an offspec for the spec fantasy, hate its atrocious random gameplay.

What class is even complex in legion?

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I must be like the only person who likes the new survival...

Marksman and Survival used to be fairly similar specs, now they are vastly different. Is the problem that you don't want to be a melee hunter or do you actually have a problem with the spec itself? I actually like the gameplay of balancing the Mok'Nathal and getting in a good Mongoose Bite window.

There will always be some people who enjoy a specc, but i certain that the vast majority of players really dislike what they did to some of their speccs that they might have mained for years. Sub for example at launch was probably the worst specc design i have ever seen. As for survival, im pretty sure that people also complained that there are already to little rdps.