Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Domcho]

But there is still truth to the notion that if it didn't exist, that if the various races had their own nations and were individual factions, the resulting game might be better but it would not be Warcraft.

Very true. I never got to play together with my best friend because he is Alliance and I am Horde. And every time one of us tried to switch faction, never got far in terms of leveling. However, I personally don't consider this an issue or recognize it as a problem, because factions go way back to the very roots of Warcraft. A bipolar world is something Warcraft always had, and without it I wouldn't see it as Warcraft, nor would I want to play it.

[Techno-Druid]

You are right on that one and that is the frustrating part. On the one hand, the concept is very much fundamental, yet on the other hand, you'd rather bypass it on multiple occassion such as the example of wanting to play with friends.



That is true. Sadly, I am not expecting Blizz them to expand on that any time soon. On the contrary, I am getting the feeling like new Allied races are somewhat encouraging faction changes.

For instance, Void Elves - I happened to have been Alliance all along and wanting to play. However, countless Blood Elves that were more Shadow-focused will want to change factions to support that theme better.

At this point it honestly it would probably be more logical if belves and draenei went neutral. Both races don't have much to gain being in a war every two years and there's arguably more to gain from playing off or utilizing both the Horde and Alliance while Silvermoon is fully restored and Azuremyst is settled and 'draenized'.

I would throw nelves and forsaken in there too, but BfA happened...

[Obelisk Kai]

At this point it honestly it would probably be more logical if belves and draenei went neutral. Both races don't have much to gain being in a war every two years and there's arguably more to gain from playing off or utilizing both the Horde and Alliance while Silvermoon is fully restored and Azuremyst is settled and 'draenized'.

I would throw nelves and forsaken in there too, but BfA happened...

I don't get this approach though.

The Orcs conducted a genocide against the Draenei and they feel a kinship to the Alliance races due to the strength of light worship among several of the core Alliance races (Dwarves and Humans particulalry).

The Alliance (from the perspective of the Blood Elves) betrayed the Blood Elves on multiple occasions. The Blood Elves initially planned to use the Horde to get to Outland and it's magical paradise and they had no either allies, but after the Outland dream was shown to be a lie they have adapted to the current circumstances. I would argue that in the modern era Lor'themar Theron, Lady Liandrin and Grand Magister Rommath are clearly Horde partisans.

There are strong, solid reasons why those races are on the factions they are on and neutrality absolutely does not make sense for them.

[Deleted]

I don't get this approach though.

The Orcs conducted a genocide against the Draenei and they feel a kinship to the Alliance races due to the strength of light worship among several of the core Alliance races (Dwarves and Humans particulalry).

The Alliance (from the perspective of the Blood Elves) betrayed the Blood Elves on multiple occasions. The Blood Elves initially planned to use the Horde to get to Outland and it's magical paradise and they had no either allies, but after the Outland dream was shown to be a lie they have adapted to the current circumstances. I would argue that in the modern era Lor'themar Theron, Lady Liandrin and Grand Magister Rommath are clearly Horde partisans.

There are strong, solid reasons why those races are on the factions they are on and neutrality absolutely does not make sense for them.

the alliance would never betray the blood elves. blizzard made it so in tbc in order to justify the blood elves joining the horde. they made blood elves for balanced reasons they have admited it and you know it
of course it will make sense if blizzard wants to. although they made it seem very silly. the alliance loves high elves and that's why they welcomed with open hands every high elf that wanted to remain loyal to the alliance. many high elves lived in theramore, sw, veressa and her followers joined later, and dalaran high elfs helped the alliance even today. thats why alliance accepts alleria back and the exiled blood elves that brings with.

[Friendlyimmolation]

the alliance would never betray the blood elves. blizzard made it so in tbc in order to justify the blood elves joining the horde. they made blood elves for balanced reasons they have admited it and you know it
of course it will make sense if blizzard wants to. although they made it seem very silly. the alliance loves high elves and that's why they welcomed with open hands every high elf that wanted to remain loyal to the alliance. many high elves lived in theramore, sw, veressa and her followers joined later, and dalaran high elfs helped the alliance even today. thats why alliance accepts alleria back and the exiled blood elves that brings with.

They already betrayed them in warcraft 3...... and one of the biggest players in the alliance the night elves still hates the high elves


Humans like the high elves when they are useful, and throw them away when they aren’t. Or in Rhonins case they like high elves because it was some pretty to put his privates in.

[Obelisk Kai]

the alliance would never betray the blood elves. blizzard made it so in tbc in order to justify the blood elves joining the horde. they made blood elves for balanced reasons they have admited it and you know it
of course it will make sense if blizzard wants to. although they made it seem very silly. the alliance loves high elves and that's why they welcomed with open hands every high elf that wanted to remain loyal to the alliance. many high elves lived in theramore, sw, veressa and her followers joined later, and dalaran high elfs helped the alliance even today. thats why alliance accepts alleria back and the exiled blood elves that brings with.

The Alliance 'loves High Elves'? There is no evidence for this. This is headcannoning, rooted in the old stereotype that the elves belong on the Alliance.

From the perspective of the High and Blood Elves, the Alliance

1.) Betrayed them in Warcraft 2 by withdrawing their forces from Quel'thalas early to attack the Horde at Lordaeron, leaving the High Elves to deal with the still rampaging Trolls.
2.) Betrayed them in Warcraft 3 by not sending any assistance to help defend Quel'thalas from the scourge.

The above two are absolutely open to interpretation and the Alliance had good reasons for their decisions, but that is how the vast majority of High Elves feel.

3.) Betrayed them in Warcraft 3 TFT in the person of Garithos, causing the final break.
4.) Betrayed them in the midst of negotiations during the Pandaria campaign when numerous Blood Elf civilians were murdered or arrested by Humans in Dalaran.

Whilst you can argue that Humans and Elves have an idealised relationship, the truth is the Blood Elves feel Humanity has let them down at every single turn in recent decades.

As for the idea that the Alliance loves High Elves...really? Does that sound realistic to you?

Here's MY headcannoning on this issue.

In the lifetime of the other Alliance races the High Elves have abandoned the Alliance in it's hour of need, become mana crazed junkies and joined the Horde. Yes, some of them have prioritised their ties with the Alliance over their own people. In WW2 some Germans sided with the Allies too, but that didn't mean the wider population 'loved' Germans.

I'd say it's likely that outside the elite leadership of the Alliance, High Elves are probably met with suspicion and distrust. You never know, they could be a Blood Elf in disguise. Or the magical addiction you now know they have (thanks to the Night Elves revealing their past to the wider Alliance) could overtake them at any time.

[Techno-Druid]

I don't get this approach though.

The Orcs conducted a genocide against the Draenei and they feel a kinship to the Alliance races due to the strength of light worship among several of the core Alliance races (Dwarves and Humans particulalry).

The Alliance (from the perspective of the Blood Elves) betrayed the Blood Elves on multiple occasions. The Blood Elves initially planned to use the Horde to get to Outland and it's magical paradise and they had no either allies, but after the Outland dream was shown to be a lie they have adapted to the current circumstances. I would argue that in the modern era Lor'themar Theron, Lady Liandrin and Grand Magister Rommath are clearly Horde partisans.

There are strong, solid reasons why those races are on the factions they are on and neutrality absolutely does not make sense for them.

I doubt Lor'themar is much of a Horde partisan considering that prior to the Purge of Dalaran there were talks in motion of Quel'thalas joining the Alliance. They also still are a shadow of their former selves in terms of population so it isn't logical to throw soldiers at warmongering factions when you could refocus that effort on rebuilding Quel'thalas.

While many draenei do have a hatred towards the orcs, many if not most recognize that was the Legion's doing and not their own free will. Many draenei seem to have little issue working alongside orcs in the Argent Crusade and Earthen Ring.

[Combatbutler]

I doubt Lor'themar is much of a Horde partisan considering that prior to the Purge of Dalaran there were talks in motion of Quel'thalas joining the Alliance. They also still are a shadow of their former selves in terms of population so it isn't logical to throw soldiers at warmongering factions when you could refocus that effort on rebuilding Quel'thalas.

Lor'themar stuck longer to Garrosh than any other Horde leader minus Gallywix, because he felt he owed the horde, only after Garrosh proved to be like Garithos and KAel'thas, did he accept the talks from Varian. And then the rebellion happened and the horde rallied to gether, so yeah I'd say he has loyalty to the horde itself as long as it treats his people fairly.

which seems to be cemented in BfA, by telling Alleria the blood elves will not join the Alliance.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I doubt Lor'themar is much of a Horde partisan considering that prior to the Purge of Dalaran there were talks in motion of Quel'thalas joining the Alliance. They also still are a shadow of their former selves in terms of population so it isn't logical to throw soldiers at warmongering factions when you could refocus that effort on rebuilding Quel'thalas.

While many draenei do have a hatred towards the orcs, many if not most recognize that was the Legion's doing and not their own free will. Many draenei seem to have little issue working alongside orcs in the Argent Crusade and Earthen Ring.

Lorthemar and Rommath chugged the red Gatorade after dal, with lorthemar proudly declaring “we are Horde, we do not back down” liadrin is very Horde loyal as well, followed by haulduron who isn’t going to let anyone fuck with quel’thalas, even if he does pity the high elves

[Arrashi]

the alliance would never betray the blood elves.

If we ignore all those times they did - sure thing.

[Doffen]

The story WAS dumb because we know WHY it became that way. Because faction balance. Because the game has TWO factions.

Didn't want to quote your whole post since it was alot, but quoting this because this explains it all. And I do agree about the points you made about the story.

For the rest of the post: Yes, there are really some strange things going on, all the way from Warcraft 3. The alliance betrayed the High Elves(know as blood elves) they say. True that somewhat, but The Alliance was broken, and even though Garithros was an asshole, Kael'thas did betray them, rightfully so of course. Garithos was also an asshole against the dwarves btw. The funny part though is that it was the Night Elves(Tyrande) who helped the Blood Elves during the campaign(before KT joined up with the Naga) What's also fun is that the Alliance disregarded everything Garithos and the New Alliance did to the Blood Elves in the times that followed.

This is the story of the Frozen Throne. Where was the Horde? Yeah, nowhere to be seen. The most sensable thing would have been to make the Blood Elves into the Alliance again, but no, lets make them join the Horde instead to get to Outland? They could easily have done that with the Alliance. To justify this story is weird.

And I am no PRO High Elf or whatever people name it. Couldn't care more, but don't try to make the Blood Elves joining Horde as something wich make(or made) sense, it doesn't. You can change to Horde if you want to play Blood Elf, or now you don't have to anymore, reskinned Blood Elves on alliance. Wich the so called PRO High Elves should be somewhat satisfied with.

[Shibito]

Every time blizzard gives alliance something a fanboy is born Tripzzz was created by the void elves now we gotta live with him as we have with northem and ravenmoon for years trying to claim void magic and the void isnt evil its just misunderstood cause alliance is da gud guis. Also blizzard making Alleria stay alliance tho she was a mega patriot when she should have rejoined her kingdom is laugable but i guess people on the alliance would burn down blizzard HQ if she rejoined her people.

Cant wait to kill lightgoats and emo elves.

[Combatbutler]

This is the story of the Frozen Throne. Where was the Horde? Yeah, nowhere to be seen. The most sensable thing would have been to make the Blood Elves into the Alliance again, but no, lets make them join the Horde instead to get to Outland? They could easily have done that with the Alliance. To justify this story is weird.

Why would they join the Alliance, which basically kicked them while they were at their lowest, they were about to kill 15% of the remaining population, including their crown prince. It would have been weird if they had actually joined the Alliance, the first time I did the bc questline in eversong and learned the blood elves were in talks with the Alliance I was like why the hell would they do that.

Same with Northrend and cooperating with Dalaran, I believe it was a mistake to help the Kirin tor out yet again.

[Doffen]

Why would they join the Alliance, which basically kicked them while they were at their lowest, they were about to kill 15% of the remaining population, including their crown prince. It would have been weird if they had actually joined the Alliance, the first time I did the bc questline in eversong and learned the blood elves were in talks with the Alliance I was like why the hell would they do that.

Same with Northrend and cooperating with Dalaran, I believe it was a mistake to help the Kirin tor out yet again.

Did you skip the first part of what I wrote deliberately or?

It says it all right there. Them not joining the Alliance sure, them joining Horde instead when they had no contact with them friendly-wise before TBC? Remember the Elves were in the Alliance since forever. A war-crime happened, but most of the Alliance didn't agree with what happened to the Blood Elves. And during the fight against the scourge, who helped them again? Night Elves.

The point is, the interaction with The Horde wasn't there. At all.

[Zulkhan]

Is there anyone super invested in Void Elves coming out of Blood Elves? I've seen people enthusiastic for Void Elves, but I've yet to see anyone really eager for them to be exiled Blood Elves.

Void Elves are exiled Blood Elves because it makes sense. The only reason people are that disappointed is because they jumped to conclusions, they immediately thought at Void Elves to be High Elves just because Alleria, the first "Void Elf", is an High Elf (even though her High Elf status is insignificant since High Elves are usually different from Blood Elves from an ideological standpoint and Alleria is clearly not even though she's politically affiliated with the Alliance).

I think there would have been a rather effective way to not only make actual High Elves into Void Elves but to make the Void Elf concept a lot more interesting concept. However, that ship sailed already when Blizzard decided to waste the Allerian Stronghold elves into the Outland and making them doing nothing relevant, instead of sending those "High Elves" into the exact place where Alleria herself went.

Lorthemar and Rommath chugged the red Gatorade after dal, with lorthemar proudly declaring “we are Horde, we do not back down” liadrin is very Horde loyal as well, followed by haulduron who isn’t going to let anyone fuck with quel’thalas, even if he does pity the high elves

Lor'themar went as far as to say "brothers and sisters of the Horde" and Liadrin definitely shown that pro-Horde attitude in her chat with Sylgrin.

The story WAS dumb because we know WHY it became that way.

No. That's not how it works. WoW is filled with lore decisions made for gameplay reasons yet justified within the lore. Some felt more asspulled than others but saying "we know the lore is not the reason something happened" is not argument. If you want to discredit a lore decision, you need to address it within the lore. Your approach is conveniently lazy. It makes it easy for you to dismiss a development you don't like with a snobbish attitude of sort.

[Maelvona]

Void Elves are exiled Blood Elves because it makes sense. The only reason people are that disappointed is because they jumped to conclusions, they immediately thought at Void Elves to be High Elves just because Alleria, the first "Void Elf", is an High Elf (even though her High Elf status is insignificant since High Elves are usually different from Blood Elves from an ideological standpoint and Alleria is clearly not even though she's politically affiliated with the Alliance).

I think there would have been a rather effective way to not only make actual High Elves into Void Elves but to make the Void Elf concept a lot more interesting concept. However, that ship sailed already when Blizzard decided to waste the Allerian Stronghold elves into the Outland and making them doing nothing relevant, instead of sending those "High Elves" into the exact place where Alleria herself went.



Lor'themar went as far as to say "brothers and sisters of the Horde" and Liadrin definitely shown that pro-Horde attitude in her chat with Sylgrin.



No. That's not how it works. WoW is filled with lore decisions made for gameplay reasons yet justified within the lore. Some felt more asspulled than others but saying "we know the lore is not the reason something happened" is not argument. If you want to discredit a lore decision, you need to address it within the lore. Your approach is conveniently lazy. It makes it easy for you to dismiss a development you don't like with a snobbish attitude of sort.

We are HUMANS playing a game for ENJOYMENT that has decisions based on REAL LIFE, not the GAME. I don't know why you love sucking the lore's FAT COCK, when it is lazy asspulled pieces of shit taped together, but I DID address it in-lore. The Blood Elves live on a different continent and the ONLY place where they interacted with the horde, was when they were invaded by it. If you say 'oh that was a different horde' well the new alliance is also A DIFFERENT ALLIANCE.

The ONLY reason they joined was because Sylvanas did, but WHY THE FUCK DID THRALL ASK SYLVANAS TO JOIN THE HORDE. He had no idea who she was, where she was, that she had just couped the Dreadlords. For all he knew Lordaeron was just scourge-land. Why would he take an alliance with the 'banshee-queen', and why would Sylvanas accept? What did they have to offer her? Nothing. NOTHING.

So you see, it is RETARDED both IN-GAME and OUT OF IT(the most important imo). I don't have to explain myself why it was a stupid decision in-lore, because there's barely any lore about it. It was literally only made on the basis of there being TWO factions, as anyone with a BRAIN can see that having just TWO fucking factions isn't enough(or too much. Factions shouldn't be so strict.) and was a short-sighted move to make some quick publicity and now the players are paying for it several times over as they are forced to live in this terrible, terrible world.

Infracted.

[Shibito]

Friendlyimmolation will find anything to shoot down any of your questions, I've read you both going back and fourth for the last few pages and people like that are always going to be dead set on being happy you don't get your High Elves because it makes them feel better to feel that they are right and you are wrong in everyway shape and form.

Still salty and trying to defend your new elves i see by attacking rather than trying to argue with friendly.

- - - Updated - - -

We get it tripzzz you are head over heels for void elves go be happy accept that not everyone agrees with you this is getting tiresome that you keep repeating the same shit for 40 pages.

[Techno-Druid]

I think in the future if Blizz ever releases a sequel to WoW or WC4, they should just merge all the helf subraces into one 'Thalassian elf' faction and have them rebuild Quel'thalas.

Really on there own belves have a lot of advantages compared to other races. The Sunwell which allows them to draw on both the light and arcane, demon hunters as a possible defense against any feral demons that get a little too close to Quel'thalas, not to mention they have knowledge of anima (the blood magic used by the mogu) which allows them to make blood golems and potentially emplore flesh shaping.

[Zulkhan]

We are HUMANS playing a game for ENJOYMENT that has decisions based on REAL LIFE, not the GAME. I don't know why you love sucking the lore's FAT COCK, when it is lazy asspulled pieces of shit taped together, but I DID address it in-lore. The Blood Elves live on a different continent and the ONLY place where they interacted with the horde, was when they were invaded by it. If you say 'oh that was a different horde' well the new alliance is also A DIFFERENT ALLIANCE.

The ONLY reason they joined was because Sylvanas did, but WHY THE FUCK DID THRALL ASK SYLVANAS TO JOIN THE HORDE. He had no idea who she was, where she was, that she had just couped the Dreadlords. For all he knew Lordaeron was just scourge-land. Why would he take an alliance with the 'banshee-queen', and why would Sylvanas accept? What did they have to offer her? Nothing. NOTHING.

So you see, it is RETARDED both IN-GAME and OUT OF IT(the most important imo). I don't have to explain myself why it was a stupid decision in-lore, because there's barely any lore about it. It was literally only made on the basis of there being TWO factions, as anyone with a BRAIN can see that having just TWO fucking factions isn't enough(or too much. Factions shouldn't be so strict.) and was a short-sighted move to make some quick publicity and now the players are paying for it several times over as they are forced to live in this terrible, terrible world.

Infracted.

Flash news: writing like a mouth-frothing bitch isn't going to win you much points. If someone goes beyond that wall of anger and caps lock, all he'll find is a whole bunch of nothing. You don't have to explain anything just because you're barely able to discuss properly, since there's indeed quite enough lore in TBC explaining why Blood Elves went Horde. Seriously, nothing too insanely hard to understand as long someone is willing to give it at least a try.

I also don't know how the fuck this backpedalled all the way back to Sylvanas joining the Horde since we were talking of Blood Elves. Regardless, there's sufficient lore explaining that too. Go check it.

TL;TR You're a fucking bluff and your bias is visible from a gorillion of miles. Try to discuss like a normal person or get the fuck out.

P.S. @Mehrunes needs to see this lmao

Infracted.

[Doffen]

since there's indeed quite enough lore in TBC explaining why Blood Elves went Horde. Seriously, nothing too insanely hard to understand as long someone is willing to give it at least a try.

The only thing that made sense is that Sylvanas sent her Forsaken up to help them. Wich is logical. That the Night Elves started to spy on the blood elves and made the Alliance look more hostile is weak, at best.(Nvm this, blurry memory, that was Naga ofc who saved KT and his few) Tyrande and Kael'thas did hook up but that was earlier (https://youtu.be/y4ONaPnh5T4 is what I was talking about)

No, the Forsaken(Sylvanas) is the main difference, but to say that its more than enough lore for the Blood Elves to join the Horde is a bit cheap.

But that was obviously enough to disregard all the years they were in the Alliance. They got sent out on a suicide mission from one "alliance" leader but that wasn't always the norm. In FT when you play as Alliance you are Kael'thas and the Blood Elves. Not the "New Alliance". I know I might be reaching but from a player perspective, the Belves was the Alliance in the game. Wich might be the reason I see this in another way than you.