Blood elves, high elves and what could have been

[Mehrunes]

Wrong. Blizzard are terrible Devs riding on the coattails of a rich world, with a built-up franchise that was over a decade old, in a new and exciting genre that hadn't been perfected. It was primed for success and success was given. Now they have run it into the ground as the have pissed off just about everyone along the way and made practically no new users for the last... Half decade, give or take?

An ancient game in a dying genre is not making a lot of new users? Who'd have thunk. It's obviously caused by Blizzard shitting on Elves!

That's terrible. Now. It was discussed. But their reasons given are half-baked at best. Absolutely no one would be 'confused', given how much colouration and tools they give to make sure the players know if the other person is on YOUR side, or the ENEMY. I could tell horde from alliance with no model present.

And yet Blizzard said they are not going to make another shared race after Pandaren precisely because of these reasons.

So why do you care. Oh wait you don't. You are defending something which is indefensible. They realized a mistake they made long ago. Having two factions is garbage, having to jump around this trash-heap of a system is garbage, no one likes how things are and the complaints are piling up, and either this expansion or the next will be the death nail in WoW. There are simply not enough people interested.

How is Alliance not getting a particular shade of Elves indefensible? And TBC was already a death nail of WoW. Supposedly. According to people like you.

It all started when the dunces did a dumb story decision. Like you said! Wow! Giving elves to the wrong faction... Blood Elves should have never been Horde, infact the Horde should have never existed, at least the way it does not. If you really wanted the faction system, they should have created four from the get-go, and horde would have been the least popular and least played. What is wrong with that? But now they are jacking it to absolute maximum to keep this trash compactor running..

Except Blood Elves joining the Horde made sense in the context of WoW at the time.

But there's just too much horde waste. They've ruined so many story elements. 'oh no we gave too many zones too alliance', 'should we expand and give horde new zones?', 'No lets just destroy alliance cities and zones thats fair.'

Was Blizzard supposed to pull those zones out of their ass? Were they supposed to give all Cata leveling zones to the Horde? Did Alliance having a presence in areas like Hillsbrad make sense to begin with? Also, it wasn't Alliance zones that were given to the Horde. It was the contested ones. Contested zones switching sides in a war is impossibru and all, other than the part where it makes sense in the context of the story, because the Horde focused on singular areas at the time, while the Alliance spread across half the globe like locusts and stretched their forces too thin. Whoopty doo, the faction that fought like morons lost ground. And just lol and you presenting Alliance losing "its" zones as not fair while complaining about Blizzard fixing a zone distribution that was unfair to the Horde to begin with.

They've driven this faction conflict so hard that people now actually hate each other. I actually hate many of you on here, not because you are horde, but because you defend them. Instead of calling out shitty devs for being shitty devs.

I think the search for the Alliance player with the thinnest skin is over.

Why was Teldrassil burned? Who cares! Why did Sylvanas join the Horde? Who cares! Why do Night Elves make such stupid and terrible mistakes, and why do they have no power as a faction? Who cares! Why is thrall a megi-god of shamanism? Who cares! Why are all the gods dying and all the light of the world is slowly waning? Who cares!

What if we waited for the story of Teldrassil to unfold before we say no one cares. It's likely to be stupid, but that's not synonymous with no one caring about it. Sylvanas joined the Horde because it was the only faction that responded positively to her reaching out. Night Elves making stupid and terrible mistakes predates WoW by a long shot and is kinda the defining feature of the race by this point. Thrall was a Shaman prodigy before WoW. He was vastly depowered after Cata too. The last part is just wat.

This all stems from their core issues in creating an MMO, how they are incompetent and can't drive a story without cutting off their own arms and legs to do it, and how they've ruined the game from any beauty or semblance of coherency it once had. Enjoy your lives, all, this ship has officially sailed. They are going to do a 'nostalgia' expansion again, and just like Warlords, it will horrendously executed and everyone will hate it. Most people disliked Legion. Their numbers are still terribly down.

You're complaining about a faction system and blaming Blizzard for it. Blizzard has many faults, but they didn't come up with the concept of factions. It's pretty much the staple of the genre. Also, where are you getting your information that most people disliked Legion? Or that Blizzard's numbers are still terribly down if they haven't released them since WoD?

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they nuked everything besides Stormwind and Org and they're just floating in space for heroes to trod off to explore new areas and planets. Would honestly be way more into their ballpark then running an actual fantasy world. Also newsflash, if your entire 'faction' system relies on one race being atypically in another faction then it should be, YOUR FACTION SYSTEM SUCKS. Imagine if the Horde got Goblins or Ogres instead of Blood Elves in burning Crusade. It would be called World of Alliance. Lol. So sad.

Wat.

I also made this account to point out your flawed logic. The only reason this game is anywhere near as popular as it is, is because of Elves. 30% of players main-elves. They should be represented within the lore as of this fact, should be the driving forces of the game alongside humans, and should generally be treated rather well. But they are shit on time and time again and receive the shittiest lore for the sake of 'muh nubblle savvages' and 'we waz trollz'

Obviously it has nothing to do with the game being a follow up to one of the most popular RTS games of all times or Blizzard taking the MMO formula of the time, polishing it and making it more accessible to the masses in comparison to its competitors. Also, speaking of flawed logic, where are you getting the data of 30% of main characters being Elves? And I'm sorry for your lore blindness, but Elves already get more focus than almost any other race. How much more do you Elves fans want? Because just like general Alliance fans, it seems there is never enough for you. And not only is there plenty of Elven lore other than noble savages or their Troll ancestry (you picked like the two aspects Blizzard least concerns themselves with), but subjectivity is a thing.

[Zulkhan]

The only thing that made sense is that Sylvanas sent her Forsaken up to help them. Wich is logical. That the Night Elves started to spy on the blood elves and made the Alliance look more hostile is weak, at best.(Nvm this, blurry memory, that was Naga ofc who saved KT and his few) Tyrande and Kael'thas did hook up but that was earlier (https://youtu.be/y4ONaPnh5T4 is what I was talking about)

No, the Forsaken(Sylvanas) is the main difference, but to say that its more than enough lore for the Blood Elves to join the Horde is a bit cheap.

Sylvanas is the important factor but not the only one. There are other two, namely:

-Desperation: Blood Elves were on the verge of extinction with enemies besieging them from all sides. From people ready to take extreme measures to ensure their kingdom's survival, forging "extreme" alliances look fitting enough;

-Of course, the Alliance spying on them and that's not weak as many seem to think. The reason? The events occurred in the Azuremyst Isles. Blood Elves stirred shit up there and Night Elves were involved. Consequently, Night Elves led an incursion in Blood Elf lands along a Dwarven spy who could infiltrate them. None at that point in time made the distinction between elves affiliated with Kael'thas or not. Hell, not even your average Blood Elf did back then, they still had faith in their prince and his promises.

But that was obviously enough to disregard all the years they were in the Alliance.

But the elves were never great fans of the Alliance anyway. Alleria gave that impression but she was a rebellious character who didn't speak for Quel'Thalas as a whole. Events where such relationship proved to be shaky at best are several, everything happened in TFT with Garithos and the Kirin Tor was the cherry on the top. And considered the events of the Purge of Dalaran in WoW, this seems to be a theme Blizzard purposefully push forward when it comes to elf/human relations as a whole.

I know I might be reaching but from a player perspective, the Belves was the Alliance in the game. Wich might be the reason I see this in another way than you.

I understand that and I remember well that from a gameplay perspective, the Blood Elf faction was literally the "Alliance faction" of TFT. But looking at the lore exclusively, things pointed at the opposed direction.

I also thank you for proving that an almost identical opinion can be stated differently and without unnecessary amounts of anger towards anyone disagreeing with it.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, that is a nice copout they came up with.
According to other earlier sources there were thousands of High Elves and Half Elves still living in Stormwind, we were just always told we couldn't see them ingame because they looked almost like humans and there was no model for them currently and to just imagine they are there. How did those suddenly become bloodelves and disappear just in time to justify not having High Elves for the Alliance?

That source hasn't been canon for like half a decade. Welcome to the present. In fact, the population numbers from the RPG books were never corroborated by the lore even before Blizzard fully decanonized them. On the other hand, we had multiple blue posts from TBC era and later saying things like High Elves being near extinct or not even being a race in any sense other than the basic biological one because of how low their population is.

[Vynny]

I think it comes down to how differentiated one race is from another and how much effort it would take to create that differentiation if the races were too close.

Basically, high elves as they're currently represented in the game are not different enough from blood elves. Blue eye glow vs green eye glow isn't enough of an aesthetic difference. The only option then is to somehow add differentiation by either changing how high elves are represented in the game which would require reskinning all or most high elf models that are already in use, or to insert some lore excuse for a new race that is a reskin but is different enough while also not requiring the reskinning of any existing models which is exaxtly what void elves are.

[Mehrunes]

I actually stand corrected. It is more like 35% of players. Draenei and Night Elves actually constitute the entirety of the 'old horde', (tauren/trolls/orcs), you can even throw in goblins and worgen too, since everyone just plays worgen for the werewolf fantasy and they just as easily could be elves. You seem to imply that beecause 65% is bigger then 35%, the 35% is stripped of any meaning and pushed out because the 65% have some 'hate' for them?

That is simply untrue. Many players prefer Elves to others. Maybe it's not that way in the Horde, but when one race makes up 40% of your players, I don't think you should be talking much shit.

It's fine if you don't care about statistics or actual facts.

Judging by the numbers, you are using data for characters at 110. Characters at 110 are not mains, because alts are a thing that exists. Your "actual facts" are actual misrepresentation.

The elves could easily be their own faction, as when they are combined, make up 35% of the playerbase. This could be even more, with players that want to get out of the Alliance-Horde deadlock is immense. No one gives a shit about humans leading the alliance, and no one gives a shit about orcs leading the horde. That is why Sylvanas is the leader of the Horde, because they are catering to players, when it has all gone downhill. I don't want Elves to be intermingled and interchangeable with any other race or faction. They should be their own, ala WCIII. It made the most sense and it was denied. We are seeing the punishments for this, as WoW has less and less players each year.

How can you with straight face argue that Sylvanas leading the Horde is proof that no one cares about Orcs leading the Horde because Blizzard caters to the players and yet claim no one cares about humans leading the Alliance either, even though it's still led by a human? Double think is real here. And really, all Elves having their own faction made the most sense because W3 even though Night Elves and Blood Elves mixed there like oil and water?

But do not denounce me because I want my race and my own identity to shine, instead of being stamped on by players who represent a smaller portion of those that play the game.

Elves are still the smaller portion even by your glorious numbers.

Elves should be the most powerful forces within the game, make stories around that, make anything around that. Because that is what reality represents.

The reality of Blood Elves just going through an almost complete genocide of their race and Night Elves losing ground and power for 10k years?

The writing is on the walls. You inhabit a false community, who's bubble has already burst and are now living inside its decayed corpse.

All of my wat.

Blizzard would never, ever sell Classic WoW if actual WoW was doing any good. Just like they would never remaster Starcraft, if Starcraft II actually had some longevity. Any company that has to remake old games because their newer titles are shitty is in its deaththrows: just look at Sega.

FFIX was just recently remastered for PS4. FFV and even FFXIV are doing fine.

To your other laughable point, (KEK I USE ACRONYMS IN AN EFFORT TO DISMISS VALIDITY, KEK)

The only acronym in Arrashi's post was "lol" which at this point is a part of Internet lingo on its own. Also, claiming validity doesn't automatically grant you validity.

Elves have simply the deepest, and most fascinating lore. That is bar none how it is.

"The concept of subjectivity is lost on me, episode 2"

I don't care that you ubergeeks prefer orcs 'muh nubble savagrryy', most people do not. They like order, elegance, a pristine experience.

Your own numbers still don't support this. Of the 110 characters that players made on the Horde, the amount of your noble savage boogeyman races is still tied with the Blood Elves. It's just they have more to choose from for that archetype, while they can only get one pretty race on the Horde. And you could, like, I dunno, stop projecting yourself onto the entire player-base in order to support your arguments, because this is not how VALIDITY works. Also lol at making a disparaging arguments about some people being geeks on a site like this.

Elves provide all of this and more. Elves have always been a staple within the genre and have been mistreated in WoW for asinine and unbearable reasons, the most blatant of which is Geography. Humans fight elves, and orcs fight elves, that is the story of WoW, instead of what they've always wanted, and what people have clamoured for, which is Humans fighting Orcs. Put them in their own continent and have them duke it out over meaningless disputes. I want none of it as it is entirely disinteresting.

And since no one died and made you king, what you want is utterly meaningless in larger scope.

Sure, if you made orcs not-orcs, and make them not as they were first created, and transform them entirely... Kind of like the Draenei, you would have bigger population numbers. You'd also have to make it so they don't live in shit-huts, they aren't idiots, and that they aren't evil. Because Orcs are unequivocally evil. They destroy any sense of nature and beauty, they only care for war, they discard their own kind for the values of strength and they dishonour themselves constantly on their own morals. It is surprising anyone likes them at all. Oh less then 8% do. So why is that orcs are the 'face' of the horde, when they have a tiny population, they should be diplomatically neutered, their forces have been routinely exterminated and their high-command has been culled? This game would be better without factions, it was a dumb gimmick that was introduced to reignite some old sense of pride, but it has shaped this game into a deaththspiral, and now that the elves must too be sacrificed to justify it, this game is simply done.

Orcs don't live in shit-huts since Cata for the most part. They aren't particularly stupid. Stomping on your precious flower doesn't make them evil. Also lol at conflating character numbers with lore numbers. And when have Orcs been routinely exterminated? WoD maybe, but those weren't Horde Orcs.

[Zulkhan]

You're complaining about a faction system and blaming Blizzard for it. Blizzard has many faults, but they didn't come up with the concept of factions. It's pretty much the staple of the genre. Also, where are you getting your information that most people disliked Legion? Or that Blizzard's numbers are still terribly down if they haven't released them since WoD?

Let alone WoD's failure had nothing to do with its nostalgia-catering but rather the fresh Blizzard's policy of "one expansion per year" which proved to be one of their shittiest ideas, ruining WoD's potential beyond repair and requiring them to do a drastic U-turn from that very policy with Legion.

[Doffen]

Sylvanas is the important factor but not the only one. There are other two, namely:

-Desperation: Blood Elves were on the verge of extinction with enemies besieging them from all sides. From people ready to take extreme measures to ensure their kingdom's survival, forging "extreme" alliances look fitting enough;

-Of course, the Alliance spying on them and that's not weak as many seem to think. The reason? The events occurred in the Azuremyst Isles. Blood Elves stirred shit up there and Night Elves were involved. Consequently, Night Elves led an incursion in Blood Elf lands along a Dwarven spy who could infiltrate them. None at that point in time made the distinction between elves affiliated with Kael'thas or not. Hell, not even your average Blood Elf did back then, they still had faith in their prince and his promises.



But the elves were never great fans of the Alliance anyway. Alleria gave that impression but she was a rebellious character who didn't speak for Quel'Thalas as a whole. Events where such relationship proved to be shaky at best are several, everything happened in TFT with Garithos and the Kirin Tor was the cherry on the top. And considered the events of the Purge of Dalaran in WoW, this seems to be a theme Blizzard purposefully push forward when it comes to elf/human relations as a whole.



I understand that and I remember well that from a gameplay perspective, the Blood Elf faction was literally the "Alliance faction" of TFT. But looking at the lore exclusively, things pointed at the opposed direction.

I also thank you for proving that an almost identical opinion can be stated differently and without unnecessary amounts of anger towards anyone disagreeing with it.

Yeah, I got no problem with the fact that blood elves joined the Horde but I have done some level 1-20 belves(I generally like the Belf) but never quite understood the Night Elf part of it, but the Draenei part were the Belves are involved makes it a clearer.

Always felt that the dwarf (anvil something) was so random, but understood he was an infiltrator and a pretty rude one at that. Not the comfy dwarf we usually see.

But it is logical that Sylvanas wanted the Blood Elves into the Horde, it was her people afterall.

[Arrashi]

Let alone WoD's failure had nothing to do with its nostalgia-catering but rather the fresh Blizzard's policy of "one expansion per year" which proved to be one of their shittiest ideas, ruining WoD's potential beyond repair and requiring them to do a drastic U-turn from that very policy with Legion.

Its not as much nostalgia-catering, as hoping that nostalgia will cover for "minimum-effort" design policy they had in WoD.

[Vynny]

So one thing that I notice in people claiming "these decisions in the lore don't make sense" for things like the blood elves joining the horde is that y'all look at things from the players almost omniscient perspective of both sides when the characters in the story don't share that same perspective.

The majority of blood elves didn't know Kael'thas took down the exodar. The Alliance didn't know that the majority of blood elves weren't aware of Kael'thas' activities. Thus it's perfectly reasonable that the alliance would see the blood elves offer to join as some attempt at subterfuge or espionage and respond to the offer with spies as delegates, AND it's perfectly understandable that the blood elves would see the alliance sending spies as a sign of nefarious intent rather than reasonable suspicion.

Basically, stop understanding the story from the perspective of the audience who always has a broader view than any character in the story has and it all will make a lot more sense. Also try using a smidge of empathy with the characters.

[Mehrunes]

This doesn't follow the logic of the world. Gilneas did just fine without the alliance until WoW came along and it DIDN'T. Kul'Tiras didn't even fucking exist for 12 years. You can't reconcile that. It is utter shite.

And Gilneas stopped doing just fine the moment the Cataclysm destroyed its wall and the Horde steamrolled through their kingdom. They rejoined out of necessity, which had a large part of the Shattering book devoted to it. And Kul'Tiras will obviously rejoin the Alliance due to Jaina. It also never officially left to begin with.

The reason why we will not accept story 'progression' and why we 'headcanon' is because the fans should be respected, and that stories should go down plausible routes. Not be created simply because one faction is dogshit at actually being attractive to players, so an entire races' diametric is changed and their lore rewritten or thrown out to allow for this. We KNOW this is why the blood elves are with the horde. THE ONLY REASON.

Yeah, no. WoW was already a two-faction game by the time TBC rolled in with the Blood Elves. And by the time the relations between Blood Elves and the Alliance were flushed down a toilet thanks to the Alliance's actions. There was no need to change any diametrics here. In the very W3 you tout as the only Warcraft game to matter. Blood Elves being helped by Sylvanas, their former Ranger General, was plausible. Them accepting her invitation to the Horde afterwards was plausible. Them not being the best buds with Kalimdor Horde, as represented by their starting reps, was plausible.

You are an apologist. Thus your opinion is invalid because even if WoW served you a steaming hot turd you'd stuff your face and proclaim it was the best meal you've ever eaten and all those who oppose you are wrong. Burning Crusade was the biggest dogshit of all, and the fact you represent, protect, and defend the TERRIBLE lore of the game, is simply disgusting. The writing is barely there, the zones are filled with pop-culture references, they self-insert their own memes constantly and they have no respect for anything they've ever created or anything they've done. Illidan's entire story is just one in a long list of examples for this.(also its funny that you thought that Blood Elves would ever join the Horde from the Frozen Throne, when they clearly were joining Illidan's faction of the Illidari, made up of Draenei, Naga, and Blood Elves. They didn't get trained out of Horde buildings, mate, and they were actually planned to have been released in multiplayer. God are you dense. Hindsight will justify anything, though, right orc-lover?)

But what if it was possibly to not glorify Blizzard in general, yet be able to not desperately cling to the past and realize the bridges between the Alliance and the Blood Elves were burned down even before Vanilla arrived? What if Also, Kael's took 15% of remaining Blood Elves with him. The rest remained on Azeroth and were in need of help in the meantime before they reunited with Kael. They found that help in Sylvanas and, through her, the Horde. Did you miss the story of Blood Elves' pilgrims in Outland?

I don't care about being disrespectful to a bad game. You are just mad that Orcs aren't popular, and your 'muh nubble sivige' is hated across the board, and you deride it to 'tolkien tropers lol'. NO. I wanted a rich fantasy world where there are stakes, forces moving all around, a fantasy world that had a plot direction with realism mixed in with the fantastical elements established. The undead have been reduced so much it is really sad, and it seems like Night Elves are going that way too. BUT HEY AT LEAST WE GOT THE GOOD OLE ALLIANCE AND HORDE AMIRITE THE HEART OF THE GAME.

Apologist.

I wonder how you are able to rationalize on one hand arguing that Elves' story was dumbed down to noble savage and Troll ancestry aspects, but on the other hand argue that Elves are so super popular because no one likes noble savage trope. As much as you chastise Blizzard for not thinknig this through, you're presenting yourself as pot calling the kettle black here. Also, if you are looking for large geopolitical shifts in not just an MMO, but in anything that's not a strategy game, then sorry, but manage your expectations better.

You are speaking about this in an entirely different direction then you should have been. Kael'thas pulled out of the Alliance of Lordaeron, true, but at that point, the Alliance of Lordaeron was in tatters and they had merely had tactical disputes over the correct decisions to take. Garithos was fighting a badly outnumbered war, but it is true, that what he did was wrong. But he wasn't the entire alliance. He was one human general that Kael'Thas turned to, when infact Tyr's Hand and Jaina's survivors of Theramore were just as much if not more substantial successors to the Lordaeron Alliance. So he disagreed with one faction within the alliance, and left his support, and that faction died not so long after. Kael'thas thought pledged his support AND his people to Illidan.

Yeah, no. It was Anasterian that pulled out of the Alliance of Lordaeron, back when Alliance was still doing fine. Because Elves never really gave too much of a shit about humans. What Kael did was cooperating with the Alliance because it was the only potential ally in the region at the time, then getting burned for good. And Garithos was the head of the Alliance at the time. The rest of the Alliance silently watched and rolled with his decision.

Kael'thas, alongside Alleria, and Sylvanas, were the principal characters we had for Blood Elves. Kael'thas showed no mention of Orcs, he even didn't mind the humans, he just disliked risking the lives of his men for what he believed fool-hardy tasks, and they probably were. So he took Illidan's offer, a Night Elf. He also knew of other Night Elves and had only curiosity of his elven kin. They even saved his life. No mention or meeting of Horde. He likely disliked them, because, as Alleria did so effortlessly point out, the Horde fucking allied themselves with the Amani to destroy all of Quel'thalas. Perhaps Kael was not really of age back then, but his father certainly would have told him/been taught this. Alleria was a steadfast alliance supporter and would risk her life for the alliance. This, presumably, would shed somewhat upon her sister, who we don't really know much about until she's turned. She's the Commander of the Farstriders and the leader of the defense of Quel'Thalas, maybe she resents the Alliance for taking her sister away? She really hates Undead, and then becomes one. Honestly Sylvanas is an entirely interesting character..

Given how the Dark Portal was closed after TFT and that Blood Elves of Quel'thalas weren't in touch with him until they reached Outland only after they joined the Horde, Kael is utterly irrelevant to the topic of the Blood Elves joining the Horde. It was Lor'thema's decision. Alleria was never a "steadfast Alliance supporter". She joined forces with Alliance only to protect Quel'thalas and later on to satiate her own need for vendetta.

But she was shoehorned into being someone else's bitch instead of as her own character. Elves were Alliance priests, and even with Anasterian absence and their policy towards isolationism, Elven priests can be found everywhere during the start of the plague, to help humanity, and many fled with Jaina to Theramore. Kael'thas dedicated his Kingdom to the Illidari, and found himself at odds with at least the wardens, who had some amount of support of traditional Kal'Dorei society, but were seen as renegades since Maiev betrayed Tyrande and went on her own. SO IN CONCLUSION, looking at this all from an 'in-lore perspective', seeing as how, the Horde were a tiny group of fledglings that would need a ton of time to build up and properly make their own territory, it would make no sense for Sylvanas nor the Blood Elves to join 'their side' as it were. They were entirely Kalimdor based, and would have done nothing for their allies across the ocean, as they owned no boats and would only bring about bad relations, which is what happened.

When was Sylvanas anyone's bitch? She did whatever she wanted under Thrall. And, for the most part, even under Garrosh. How does the part about Elven priests and Kael'thas joining Illidan even follow from this argument? There's no logical link between these parts and as such no way to make a CONCLUSION out of this disjointed mess.

And the Horde was not a tiny group of fledglings at the time. The Orcs from internment camps were numerous enough that Blackmoore planned to overthrow the entire Alliance with them (he actually did just that in one of the alternate timelines). Thrall freed them all and even got some clans that were never imprisoned. The New Horde was immense from its inception. That massive army traveled to Kalimdor via, you know, boats. Stolen from the Alliance. How do you think they got there in the first place? And since it was the faction that was willing to talk with Forsaken, the one that the Forsaken joined for mutual military benefit. Then Sylvanas made it so that the Blood Elves could join too. Pretty straightforward.

If anything, it would make way more sense for the Blood Elves to renegotiate with Jaina, as she was based in Theramore, had connections back home on the Eastern Kingdoms, and would have rectified the mistakes that her forebears caused. But that is all speaking in disillusion. What we talk about aren't the Blood Elves or the High Elves. They're the Rebels. They are the ones who betrayed Kael'Thas, and betrayed the foundations of his Kingdom.. For nothing, the Blood Elves were in no threat, presumably, but because they HAD to make a reason, it was because of alliance spies & a previously unforseen undead army/fortress bearing down the doors of Silvermoon even long after Arthas had left and Kael committed a huge amount of his soldiers elsewhere.

Yeah, no. The Scourge was so strong in the Ghostlands that without the Horde support the Blood Elves would have perished, which is clearly outlined in the story. And it's not a completely unforeseen army. Blood Elves were presented as threatened by the Scourge in W3 already. Also after Arthas already left. Arthas left a humongous army in the continent. Have you missed the Plaguelands in Vanilla? And it was completely within Lor'themar's power as the Regent Lord to seek help wherever he saw fit. Before the truth about Kael'thas was revealed, the Horde was a temporary ally to get Blood Elves into Kael's "Utopia" in Outland anyway.

So as you can see, within the plot of the game, none of this makes sense and I would be scratching at my head as all these loose plot threads and unfinished stories were tried to tied together as a 'AND THEN BLOOD ELVES JOIN HORDE JUST CUZ'.

Yeah, that's totally what happened.

We can literally only make sense of the Blood Elven(traitor) story when it comes from this light. We can only make sense of Blood Elves betraying Kael'thas, and then two different factions launching crusades against him, in this light, as he was a benevolent king and a generally cool dude. The blood elves obviously do not belong in the Alliance, but they Don't belong in the Horde either as this has hopefully illustrated, so trying to underpin their alliance 'switching' when the Horde was geopolitically dead in the water and had no leg to stand up on with the Blood Elves is just nonsensical. You are giving cause to Blizzard's stupidity.

No one betrayed Kael'thas. Kael'thas wasn't even a king, but I guess expecting even basic lore knowledge from you is futile at this point. And the Horde was still not dead in the water at that point in time. You ignoring aspects of the story that are inconvenient to your narrative and conjuring stuff out of thin air elsewhere doesn't give any VALIDITY to your posts either.

[Zulkhan]

Yeah, I got no problem with the fact that blood elves joined the Horde but I have done some level 1-20 belves(I generally like the Belf) but never quite understood the Night Elf part of it, but the Draenei part were the Belves are involved makes it a clearer.

There's only one trick to make people hate each other without depicting one side as dumb evil: misunderstanding. It worked with the Broken Shore fiasco, it worked back then (actually, the Draenei/Blood Elf misunderstanding was a lot more convincing and logical, the Broken Shore event looked a bit forced).

But it is logical that Sylvanas wanted the Blood Elves into the Horde, it was her people afterall.

Even assuming she didn't care as she used to, she knew to be a familiar face for them and had all the convenience of getting Blood Elves as allies.

Its not as much nostalgia-catering, as hoping that nostalgia will cover for "minimum-effort" design policy they had in WoD.

That's for sure. Nostalgia leaves an awful taste in the mouth only when it's supposed to "catch your interest" without any actual substance. Legion wasn't dramatically better from a lore standpoint but at least was pretty fat in terms of content in general. WoD has been extremely poor in all senses.

[Mehrunes]

Is this really still the core of the argument against High Elves, though? I feel like any stance that pivots on population size breaks down under scrutiny. The entirety of the playable Bilgewater Cartel fit in the hull of a single boat - it's a major plot point in the goblin starting story - and we're going to say they constitute a greater force than a faction that formed significant populations in three (now two) major metropolises, occupies lodges around the world, has a militia that can stand toe to toe with Silvermoon's Farstriders?

When has the Silver Covenant stood toe to toe with Silvermoon's Farstriders on its own? Like, ever. When has it ever been stated that High Elves were a significant population in any of the metropolises they inhabited? And out of the lodges around the world one has a single surviving member, one had been Horde fodder twice and one is mostly populated by Dwarves and humans with only one named High Elf. As for Goblins, some also landed in Tanaris. A fleet of them. Admittedly those went kinda insane from the wreck, but the point is, the starting questline's Goblins weren't the only ones that escaped.

The fact is, we have no hard, canon numbers on player race populations. So any claims made about the significance of a group that comprises 1% of the pre-Scourge High Elf population are moot - Is this 1% of a billion or of 10,000? Some catastrophe could wipe out 99% of China tomorrow, and they'd still be in the upper third of the world's most populous countries. Most of the justification comes from a Community Manager post from before Blood Elves were even playable, and a Con-floor interview with Ion. I fully acknowledge that there's a gulf between lore and gameplay. But I tend to take the polished experiences they've presented to us in game, that show High Elves matching Blood Elves in Zul'Aman, Isle of Thunder, Suramar, over off-the-cuff opinions from Blizzard employees about a product like WoW, where development and decision-making are constantly in flux.

The viewpoint that High Elf population is 'vanishingly small' seems to exist almost entirely outside of the game or any official media. And it appears to be one that the writers, quest developers, and world designers at Blizzard disagree with. They could have presented High Elves as the clinging survivors of an extinct culture, rarely folded into other societies like a diamond in coal. But that ship sailed ten years ago. They've been used to drive the Alliance story far too much to ignore - as it is, I think the Alliance will always feel incomplete without playable High Elves.

There is no lore gulf between lore and gameplay here. They haven't matched squat in Zul'aman since they weren't competing forces to make any viable comparison there (plus, as Aucald said, the reason Halduron reached out was because his Farstrider were tied up). They only helped because they knew the land. They were only a support force to the Kirin Tor in Isle of Thunder. They were one group of many in Suramar and weren't even the main Alliance one. So what we have is numerous Word of God sources saying High Elves are near extinct, lowest estimate from TBC putting them around a thousand and gameplay showing them dying left and right and their main group, the Silver Covenant, almost always being forced into a support role for a larger group. The only times the Silver Covenant acted against the Horde on their own was as counterpart to Sunreavers alone. Not Farstriders, not Quel'thalas in general, Sunreavers. One Blood Elven group out of many, easily incorporated into the Magisters by Rommath after the Purge of Dalaran.

As for differences - it oughta be self-evident that there's a heck of a lot more cultural difference between the Blood Elves who essentially forged a new identity for themselves (I mean, that's what TFT is all about) and the High Elves whose culture has continued to evolve and gain definition over the past decade as a foil to the Blood Elves (as the Forsaken to the Scourge and the Draenei to the Manari), than between a Blood Elf and an exiled Blood Elf.

Except that's not the case. That's what the Silver Covenant did, at best. And they are just one group. When did Quel'Danil Lodge's High Elves forge an identity revolving around foiling Blood Elves? When did Outland ones, that were willing to talk with Lor'themar? For most of the groups the only difference is the one that made Lor'themar exile them.

Visually, I'm much less invested (though I do feel Void Elves look way too much like Belf DKs with Sylvanas skin - does this kill chances for Forsaken Elves?).

The Void Elves look rather blue-ish. At least from what I've seen. San'layn are more dark grey, Dark Hunters are pale as hell. I'm not saying they will happen, given the saturation of Elves (then again it didn't stop Blizzard from introducing two races of Elves just now), but the color difference is there. The smallest difference is indeed between Void Elves and Blood Elf DKs (though in relation to the San'layn, I think some Blood Elf DHs are grey too), yet here they are. In case of undead Elves there could be also some things like decay or, in San'layn's case, playing on their vampiric vibe to the fullest.

We're in very early days yet. Storylines have yet to be finalized, dialogues have yet to be written, they are months and months away from the VO booth. We're at the stage where everything is subject to change. And a stage where healthy discussion actually has an infinitesimal sliver of a chance of being productive.

As far as story is concerned the chance is pretty much zero though. Blizzard already listens little to things like Class balance concerns (even when it's self evident and Blizzard fixes it the way community told them to months later) and story is pretty much on the bottom of their list of things to be concerned about. At best hey'll change something that people find offensive for political reasons, like hush Tyrande or Maraad being touchy feely with Yrel.

Not when it's based on denigrating and condescending to those with different opinions, to which several posters in this thread have resorted (and really, if you have to rely on that, your argument's probably not so hot). But when it's based on mutual respect. I think a lively discourse - here, on the official forums, on Reddit - is a good thing. From what little we know, Void Elves (IMO) don't make much narrative sense, and really only satisfy fans of the Blood Elf model who don't want to switch from Alliance. I think they offer far greater story potential, plot consistency, and player satisfaction as a subgroup of High Elves (I've articulated elsewhere in this thread why Sons of Lothar helfs present the ideal background).

Sons of Lothar High Elves were against Blood Elves' practice of mana draining even though they weren't around for the split, weren't exiled over it to harbor particularly strong sentiment like High Elves of Quel'Lithien Lodge and already found a way to cope with mana addiction before Kael even reached Outland, so they weren't forced into the moral dilemma that the exiles were. And they held such a strong Alliance sentiment they were the only ones confirmed to be willing to talk with Lor'themar about return. How exactly do they present the ideal background for Void users?

the alliance would never betray the blood elves. blizzard made it so in tbc in order to justify the blood elves joining the horde. they made blood elves for balanced reasons they have admited it and you know it
of course it will make sense if blizzard wants to. although they made it seem very silly. the alliance loves high elves and that's why they welcomed with open hands every high elf that wanted to remain loyal to the alliance. many high elves lived in theramore, sw, veressa and her followers joined later, and dalaran high elfs helped the alliance even today. thats why alliance accepts alleria back and the exiled blood elves that brings with.

Except for the times it did even before WoW was a thing.

Lor'themar stuck longer to Garrosh than any other Horde leader minus Gallywix, because he felt he owed the horde, only after Garrosh proved to be like Garithos and KAel'thas, did he accept the talks from Varian. And then the rebellion happened and the horde rallied to gether, so yeah I'd say he has loyalty to the horde itself as long as it treats his people fairly.

which seems to be cemented in BfA, by telling Alleria the blood elves will not join the Alliance.

How could you forget Ji Firepaw?

[Combatbutler]

How could you forget Ji Firepaw?

To be honest I completely forgot about him XD

[Arrashi]

To be honest I completely forgot about him XD

Shit like this is why pandaren suffered the most.

[Mehrunes]

For the rest of the post: Yes, there are really some strange things going on, all the way from Warcraft 3. The alliance betrayed the High Elves(know as blood elves) they say. True that somewhat, but The Alliance was broken, and even though Garithros was an asshole, Kael'thas did betray them, rightfully so of course. Garithos was also an asshole against the dwarves btw. The funny part though is that it was the Night Elves(Tyrande) who helped the Blood Elves during the campaign(before KT joined up with the Naga) What's also fun is that the Alliance disregarded everything Garithos and the New Alliance did to the Blood Elves in the times that followed.

How did Kael'thas betray the Alliance? He and his people were sentenced to death for allying in the Naga in face of annihilation after Garithos sent them on a suicidal mission. Allying with the Naga was actually not against his orders since while he spewed some racist drivel about the Naga and made some vague threats of not betraying the Alliance, that's pretty much all he did. He just considered them to be monsters and sentenced Blood Elves to death over that. And the entire Alliance followed suit. No one questioned him. Dalaran even allowed the execution to be performed in their city.

This is the story of the Frozen Throne. Where was the Horde? Yeah, nowhere to be seen. The most sensable thing would have been to make the Blood Elves into the Alliance again, but no, lets make them join the Horde instead to get to Outland? They could easily have done that with the Alliance. To justify this story is weird.

What was seen around in TFT were the Forsaken. And they are the primary reason Blood Elves joined the Horde. Because even if one rolled with the idea that Kael somehow betrayed the Alliance, any link Quel'thalas ever had with humans was weaker than their link to their Ranger General.

Did you skip the first part of what I wrote deliberately or?

It says it all right there. Them not joining the Alliance sure, them joining Horde instead when they had no contact with them friendly-wise before TBC? Remember the Elves were in the Alliance since forever. A war-crime happened, but most of the Alliance didn't agree with what happened to the Blood Elves. And during the fight against the scourge, who helped them again? Night Elves.

The point is, the interaction with The Horde wasn't there. At all.

The Elves were in Alliance since shortly before the Second War. Not exactly forever. Especially since they then left immediately after the Second War. And most of the Alliance didn't agree? I don't recall them doing anything about that. And Night Elves helped them, but they were never particularly fond of them either. They are the ones who exiled them to begin with. They were as mistrusting of them as any other magical Elves (we've seen that pattern repeat way too many times by now). Ultimately they still joined the Horde because Sylvanas. The interaction with Sylvanas was rather long. With the Regent Lord of Quel'thalas, as well as its new Ranger Lord, being willing to die for Sylvanas back when they served under her.

We are HUMANS playing a game for ENJOYMENT that has decisions based on REAL LIFE, not the GAME. I don't know why you love sucking the lore's FAT COCK, when it is lazy asspulled pieces of shit taped together, but I DID address it in-lore. The Blood Elves live on a different continent and the ONLY place where they interacted with the horde, was when they were invaded by it. If you say 'oh that was a different horde' well the new alliance is also A DIFFERENT ALLIANCE.

First sentence makes no sense. The decision making lies in Blizzard's hands and they make the decisions based on state of the game. That includes its story. Also, your addressing of lore was weak as fuck at best. And given how ships and zeppelins are a thing, being on different continents means little. Guess what, Alliance is also on another continent, because Lordaeron is a separate continent from the continent of Azeroth.

The distance between Stormwind and Lordaeron is similar to that of the distance between Orgrimmar and Lordaeron too. And guess what else, Stormwind would also support Lordaeron by ships too, for the most part, because it's much faster than walking across the entire Eastern Kingdoms. So there's no particular difference between the Alliance and the Horde from this perspective.

Also, one of the largest kingdoms on the planet is the Forsaken one and they were right on Quel'thalas' doorstep. And the Horde is a different Horde, the Alliance is only renamed as per Metzen.

The ONLY reason they joined was because Sylvanas did, but WHY THE FUCK DID THRALL ASK SYLVANAS TO JOIN THE HORDE. He had no idea who she was, where she was, that she had just couped the Dreadlords. For all he knew Lordaeron was just scourge-land. Why would he take an alliance with the 'banshee-queen', and why would Sylvanas accept? What did they have to offer her? Nothing. NOTHING.

Sylvanas sent envoys to various groups. Each side had a large military to offer to each other, as a deterrent against common foes, and as help where needed (like Forsaken being able to help Orc outposts in the region like Hammerfall). Thrall was also convinced by the Earthen Ring who considered Forsaken as a group that is not in a dissimilar place from where Orcs were in the past and one that could potentially be redeemed.

So you see, it is RETARDED both IN-GAME and OUT OF IT(the most important imo). I don't have to explain myself why it was a stupid decision in-lore, because there's barely any lore about it. It was literally only made on the basis of there being TWO factions, as anyone with a BRAIN can see that having just TWO fucking factions isn't enough(or too much. Factions shouldn't be so strict.) and was a short-sighted move to make some quick publicity and now the players are paying for it several times over as they are forced to live in this terrible, terrible world.

Why would OOG aspect be more important for a game? And while two factions may be restrictive, the decision still made sense and there was plenty of lore on the matter. And Blood Elves in the Horde were made for publicity? Wat? Again, the MMO genre doesn't allow for radical faction shifts or adding new factions later on. They started with two factions and simply worked with the system they built.

TL;TR You're a fucking bluff and your bias is visible from a gorillion of miles. Try to discuss like a normal person or get the fuck out.

P.S. @Mehrunes needs to see this lmao

'Twas indeed enjoyable :3

The only thing that made sense is that Sylvanas sent her Forsaken up to help them. Wich is logical. That the Night Elves started to spy on the blood elves and made the Alliance look more hostile is weak, at best.(Nvm this, blurry memory, that was Naga ofc who saved KT and his few) Tyrande and Kael'thas did hook up but that was earlier (https://youtu.be/y4ONaPnh5T4 is what I was talking about)

No, the Forsaken(Sylvanas) is the main difference, but to say that its more than enough lore for the Blood Elves to join the Horde is a bit cheap.

There's also the part where the Alliance potentially sabotaged them. Or where it was said the Blood Elves negotiated with the Horde for a while. And the part where Blood Elves were presented as too weak to stand against the Scourge in Ghostlands on their own (which was also why the Horde was reluctant to let them join) and while the Alliance was busy kicking them while they were down under the guise of diplomacy, Sylvanas sent enough support to turn the tide where it mattered and then fought in the Horde for the Blood Elves to be accepted. They owe Sylvanas the fact that they haven't suffered a second genocide of their race in a decade. That's more than enough of a reason to follow her request for them to join.

But that was obviously enough to disregard all the years they were in the Alliance. They got sent out on a suicide mission from one "alliance" leader but that wasn't always the norm. In FT when you play as Alliance you are Kael'thas and the Blood Elves. Not the "New Alliance". I know I might be reaching but from a player perspective, the Belves was the Alliance in the game. Wich might be the reason I see this in another way than you.

They were in the Alliance for at most 15 years (and that is already stretching it extremely hard), never as the most enthusiastic member. And the TFT campaign revolves around Blood Elves leaving the Alliance for good and teaming up with Illidain. It doesn't prove anything positive about the Alliance. The human campaign in RoC wasn't exactly pro-human either.

Sylvanas is the important factor but not the only one. There are other two, namely:

-Desperation: Blood Elves were on the verge of extinction with enemies besieging them from all sides. From people ready to take extreme measures to ensure their kingdom's survival, forging "extreme" alliances look fitting enough;

An important side-note is that Sylvanas wasn't a fan of Orcs when she joined either, as per what she told Vereesa in War Crimes. But she still needed help, despite her faction being much stronger than Quel'thalas (their very nascence was them winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands against the Scourge and Dreadlords, while Quel'thalas couldn't handle one Scourge general). Given how she wanted to reshape the Horde with just Vereesa, making the Blood Elves join would have been a ploy to make the Horde more manageable for her (she even said something about opening a new chapter for the Horde in the Blood Elf acceptance quests).

But the elves were never great fans of the Alliance anyway. Alleria gave that impression but she was a rebellious character who didn't speak for Quel'Thalas as a whole. Events where such relationship proved to be shaky at best are several, everything happened in TFT with Garithos and the Kirin Tor was the cherry on the top. And considered the events of the Purge of Dalaran in WoW, this seems to be a theme Blizzard purposefully push forward when it comes to elf/human relations as a whole.

Alleria wasn't super pro-Alliance either. She's anti-Orc. She helped in Second War because she considered Orcs to be a bigger threat than what Anesterian believed and wanted to protect her country. And then she went on a vendetta against Orcs for killing her family members.

Let alone WoD's failure had nothing to do with its nostalgia-catering but rather the fresh Blizzard's policy of "one expansion per year" which proved to be one of their shittiest ideas, ruining WoD's potential beyond repair and requiring them to do a drastic U-turn from that very policy with Legion.

Yeah, there's that. Very rushed expansion. Also, once Blizz realized it's not well received (which had more to do with already cut content from beta or the general timey whimy bullshit), they pretty much abandoned the project, cut even more and rushed for the end game.

To be honest I completely forgot about him XD

Admittedly, so did Blizzard for the most part.

[Doffen]

How did Kael'thas betray the Alliance? He and his people were sentenced to death for allying in the Naga in face of annihilation after Garithos sent them on a suicidal mission. Allying with the Naga was actually not against his orders since while he spewed some racist drivel about the Naga and made some vague threats of not betraying the Alliance, that's pretty much all he did. He just considered them to be monsters and sentenced Blood Elves to death over that. And the entire Alliance followed suit.

They were in the Alliance for at most 15 years (and that is already stretching it extremely hard), never as the most enthusiastic member.

Well as I wrote, he did it rightfully so. But he was under the command so in correct terms he did "betray them. Let it be clear that whatever Kael'thas did at that time was the correct decision.

And, humans and High Elves had Alliances back long before the second war. Humans learned magic from the Elves, and they fought together in the troll wars and so on. 100s if not 1000s of years before the fall of Lordaeron.

Take it from Zul'jin himself, seeing Belves with the Horde was unheard of.

When I write how it suddenly turned this is what I have in mind. Humans and Elves were allied for a long long time. Whatever happened in the TFT and in Quel'thalas(TBC) is a small part in all this.

And according to lore Jaina and other humans didn't follow the New Alliance(wich wasn't really an alliance) but it might be that lore isn't canon.

All this is why I say they disregard what happened in all those years before. The humans helped the High Elves during the troll wars, not the other way around. And I can't recall any big disputes before the Alliance felt in WC3, but if there is, my bad.

It did clear up my mind a bit what Zulkhan wrote, and Belves being with the Horde is okay, but the history before the events of TFT says completely otherwise. But as we know, history changes.

[Deleted]

Well as I wrote, he did it rightfully so. But he was under the command so in correct terms he did "betray them. Let it be clear that whatever Kael'thas did at that time was the correct decision.

And, humans and High Elves had Alliances back long before the second war. Humans learned magic from the Elves, and they fought together in the troll wars and so on. 100s if not 1000s of years before the fall of Lordaeron.

Take it from Zul'jin himself, seeing Belves with the Horde was unheard of.

When I write how it suddenly turned this is what I have in mind. Humans and Elves were allied for a long long time. Whatever happened in the TFT and in Quel'thalas(TBC) is a small part in all this.

And according to lore Jaina and other humans didn't follow the New Alliance(wich wasn't really an alliance) but it might be that lore isn't canon.

All this is why I say they disregard what happened in all those years before. The humans helped the High Elves during the troll wars, not the other way around. And I can't recall any big disputes before the Alliance felt in WC3, but if there is, my bad.

It did clear up my mind a bit what Zulkhan wrote, and Belves being with the Horde is okay, but the history before the events of TFT says completely otherwise. But as we know, history changes.

you should also take in considaration why garithos was treating kael'thas like that. was garithos a racist bastard? yes....but why? he didnt born this way....in fact something that very few people are aware for is that garithos went to help the high elves and protect quel thalas against the horde. as he did though a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and put blackwood to the torch killing all of its inhabitants. garithos's family perished trying to defend the lives and homes of their subjects. garithos blamed the elves for the loss of his home and family believing that they had diverted troops that could have been used to defend humanity.

and kael thas even though he made the right choice allying with the naga i agree with you. he did betray him.

[Mehrunes]

Well as I wrote, he did it rightfully so. But he was under the command so in correct terms he did "betray them. Let it be clear that whatever Kael'thas did at that time was the correct decision.

I know what you said, but my point is that what Kael did wasn't actually against his orders. So while Garithos may have considered it treason (and the Alliance followed suit for whatever reason), he didn't exactly have grounds for that. Only a convenient situation where he could kill some Elves because monsters helped them.

And, humans and High Elves had Alliances back long before the second war. Humans learned magic from the Elves, and they fought together in the troll wars and so on. 100s if not 1000s of years before the fall of Lordaeron.

Take it from Zul'jin himself, seeing Belves with the Horde was unheard of.

When I write how it suddenly turned this is what I have in mind. Humans and Elves were allied for a long long time. Whatever happened in the TFT and in Quel'thalas(TBC) is a small part in all this.

And other than Dalaran, their cooperation with humankind as a whole was non-existent during that time. Also, their debt was to the nation of Arathor and the descendants of Thoradin specifically. They fulfilled that obligation by joining the Second War during which the last member of that line died (meaning that even if they didn't fulfill their obligation before, they lost the reason for doing so with no other side to the obligation anymore). Combine it with their isolationism and you have a fuller picture of why they left the Alliance after the Second War.

And according to lore Jaina and other humans didn't follow the New Alliance(wich wasn't really an alliance) but it might be that lore isn't canon.

Theramore had no links with Alliance of Lordaeron either for what I know, so since Lordaeron region collapsed into chaos by the time Theramore was established and Stormwind was still rebuilding, there was no way for them to apply. If I had to guess they officially joined the Alliance only after Third War.

All this is why I say they disregard what happened in all those years before. The humans helped the High Elves during the troll wars, not the other way around. And I can't recall any big disputes before the Alliance felt in WC3, but if there is, my bad.

It's not like humans did it out of the goodness of their hearts. Both sides were too weak to take on the Amani on their own. Had the High Elves fallen, Amani would have wiped out the humans next. So while it was the High Elves that were in more need of help at the specific time, since Amani focused on them first due to proximity, ultimately both sides needed each other.

It did clear up my mind a bit what Zulkhan wrote, and Belves being with the Horde is okay, but the history before the events of TFT says completely otherwise. But as we know, history changes.

Exactly. And the events of TFT are one of the key events leading to that change.

[Arrashi]

you should also take in considaration why garithos was treating kael'thas like that. was garithos a racist bastard? yes....but why? he didnt born this way....in fact something that very few people are aware for is that garithos went to help the high elves and protect quel thalas against the horde. as he did though a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and put blackwood to the torch killing all of its inhabitants. garithos's family perished trying to defend the lives and homes of their subjects. garithos blamed the elves for the loss of his home and family believing that they had diverted troops that could have been used to defend humanity.

and kael thas even though he made the right choice allying with the naga i agree with you. he did betray him.

Oh no its my mortal enemy - freudian excuse !

[Graden]

Oh no its my mortal enemy - freudian excuse !

Garithos did nothing wrong.

This video is gold, especially the way it ends, ''never trust an elf''!