Grand Marshal/High Warlord

[Ehrees]

Except it wasn't. You just imagine it was. People who played back then with firsthand experience of the system will recount the tales of griefers who made it their mission to fuck with specific players so they couldn't reach rank 14. They literally went out of their way to hurt other players. Not to mention the system encouraged conflcit between the same faction because they were all scrambling to get it themselves.

This is all ignoring the part where account sharing will be the only realistic way to get rank 14. That is of course if you can't get your own bot to do it for you.

Except I did play back then. And it was still an accomplishment. So much of an accomplishment that it took playing 24/7, sharing accounts, and griefing people so they would not get it.

Thank you for making my point for me. Just because you do not agree with HOW it was accomplished, doesn't mean it wasn't an accomplishment.

Sounds like someone is still butthurt 13 years later........

[Kyanion]

Except it wasn't. You just imagine it was. People who played back then with firsthand experience of the system will recount the tales of griefers who made it their mission to fuck with specific players so they couldn't reach rank 14. They literally went out of their way to hurt other players. Not to mention the system encouraged conflcit between the same faction because they were all scrambling to get it themselves.

This is all ignoring the part where account sharing will be the only realistic way to get rank 14. That is of course if you can't get your own bot to do it for you.

Yup I could give my tale of what happened on my server. What made it worse is that we knew the people in our city and they were the ones hoarding it. They account shared the hell out of it and it was pretty sad to watch happen.

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Except I did play back then. And it was still an accomplishment. So much of an accomplishment that it took playing 24/7, sharing accounts, and griefing people so they would not get it.

Thank you for making my point for me. Just because you do not agree with HOW it was accomplished, doesn't mean it wasn't an accomplishment.

Sounds like someone is still butthurt 13 years later........

I don't think they are butthurt that some Joe Random on the forums claims to have earned the title. I mean you admit you played as much as possible, account shared and griefed people for it. Go you...I guess?

I think it pretty funny you believe it is some sort of big accomplishment though.

[BicycleMafioso]

I want it to stay the same, and I am a former rank 14. And 9. And 8. And 6. And 5x3. And 3.
Of course I am biased right? I just rode the gravy train, botting/account sharing 24/7 right? Now I don't want anyone to take away my own toys, right?
No. It's impossible for someone to sit through that much pvp and not improve, even for me - and I am a slow learner. So the skill thing isn't really applicable. "Most skill" is such an arbitrary argument, because it will be digital and thus it needs to be overly complex or it can be gamed, and even then it can probably be gamed.
The trick to r14 was to be well rested and high ranked when you started the grind. For me, 7 hours per day was well enough. I could have gotten away with less, but I wanted to double-down. All I had to do was standing 1, and without me, no organised BG would happen, since I controlled my (reasonably tiny) faction, and they came to me. All I had to do was politic. If I wasn't online, barely any BG happened at all, since I made sure three or more other people wanted to also do their own thing and the faction was too small for them to gather up three groups or more.
So I got standing 1. And kept going with it, making sure to play as little as possible, not knowing if I actually made progress (the progress bar for honour wasn't in this early) and suddenly, one day I was there.
The thing I am trying to say is that the horror stories are really not a guarantee. You can theoretically get rank 1 with 3 hour per day, given that no one else plays more.
And if you don't get standing 1 one week, that's okay, you only dropped a full ****ing mother****ing rank after weeks of progress so that is why group order matters and why we never invited gnome rogues ever again.
So if you need to play that much, your rival group(s) plays too much and that isn't beneficial to anyone. If you don't get the correct standing, it's a problem with your own group.
No account sharing needed, just responsibility. This will not happen this time around, though.
Tonnes of people are probably gonna play only for the reason of "actually doing it this time".
Which is one of the reasons it needs to stay. It is the expectation and goal for so many people.

Those who want it changed are usually the entitled people wanting the thing but without putting in the effort that actually makes the thing the thing. Sitting on a forum and calling people "no life basement dwelling 12 year old account sharers" for instance. Which is cute and all, but very obvious.

I personally might consider going for r11 if I roll warrior because I doubt I will be able to afford epic mount with the repair bills of plate in vanilla. And only if the honor system revamp from 1.8 is in effect, otherwise it can **** off. The pre-1.8 is soul crushing compared to how the post-1.8 ranking system was. But I will probably roll a Mage and only get and hold 6 for the potions, or 10 so I don't die in an ambush in the open world because gear seriously lacks stamina.

But those are the facts. Anyone not working on WoW is not improving WoW. That's a fact.

So are you working for Blizzard or are you working on not improving wow? Since that is the binary world view you are painting it out to be. I would personally say that there can be people working on Overwatch and I don't have to be mad about them not contributing to making Wow a better game. Current expansion and wow: classic will not be two versions of wow being offered, they will be two different games within the franchise.

[BananaHandsB]

Don't worry, if the "leave vanilla untouched" ppl get their way you will safely be able to bot ur way to nearly grand marshal.

[gaymer77]

I doubt a significant amount of people would name the hwl/gm grind an essential part of the classic experience. But hey, heres a thread. Lets discuss it instead of childishly trying to shut down a topic because it doesnt sit right with your personal views on the matter.

Tell me why you feel that going from a time intensive grind to a skill based system would negatively impact classic servers for other reasons than "thats not how it was". Because if that reasoning was relevant in any way, blizz wouldnt have repeatedly stressed that they want to discuss with the community how these servers should be, which i was trying to do here before you so rudely burped into the thread.

You are wanting something that is NOT the vanilla WoW experience. "Skill" based pvp came about with arena and/or ranked battlegrounds. Neither of those things happened during vanilla. I did some PvP in my spare time (was a current tier raider all the way through Naxx40) when I wasn't on an alt doing other things or farming gold by selling key unlocks. I earned Legionnaire as my reward. Had I invested more time into PvP I probably would have been a lot higher rank than I ended up with but I chose to do other things. THAT is how vanilla was. I take great honor in knowing I also had a total of 3 dishonor kills on my record ALL simply because some jackass decided to kill wisps in Darnassas while we were doing a city raid.

I have played Legion and did everything I wanted to, including mage tower, pvp, raiding, m+, several alts and whatever you can imagine outside of pet battles. I really enjoyed legion but its still a very streamlined game with pretty boring, streamlined dungeon design, awful worldpvp, huge item scaling issues (1 raid tier in leg has almost as high an ilvl gap as the entirety of vanilla maxlvl content). I like classic. Played on 3 different private servers and enjoyed the shit out of it outside of the constant fear and actuality of losing allmyour shit when blizz decides to take the server down.

Not sure how me playing legion would alter my wish for a less retarded pvp system in classic. Im absolutely going to play on these servers and I would love for the pvp system to be more than a showoff for 12 year old basement dwelling account sharers. Swear to god it will change. Even Blizzard knows that system was awful.

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However some random guys ever managed to get private servers running pretty fucking well without anything you just mentioned. I guess nostalrius never happened. Let alone the other dozens of well working privates.

-cut out. Bullshit on my part-

I'll refer you to my previous statement. Changing ANYTHING about vanilla is not having the vanilla experience. If you want to earn HWL/GM then you're going to invest time in to get those ranks like others did during vanilla because THAT WAS THE VANILLA EXPERIENCE. If you want skilled pvp, do current content. If you want a grind, do vanilla.

[Hunterwep]

Yeah so we can Skip MC & BWL and hop straight into AQ40 after a few weeks of PvP'ing, that's the Vanilla Experience I'm looking for !

[Ehrees]

Yup I could give my tale of what happened on my server. What made it worse is that we knew the people in our city and they were the ones hoarding it. They account shared the hell out of it and it was pretty sad to watch happen.

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I don't think they are butthurt that some Joe Random on the forums claims to have earned the title. I mean you admit you played as much as possible, account shared and griefed people for it. Go you...I guess?

I think it pretty funny you believe it is some sort of big accomplishment though.

First, I never said I got the title. I never said I played 24/7, account shared or anything else. I simply said that it was an accomplishment.
All the complainers here prove it was indeed an accomplishment.

Funny enough, none of your whining is going to matter. Classic will be implemented with no changes. That is what the movement that created this outcome asked for, and from a technical and cost perspective, it is the only thing that makes sense.

I am fine the people who failed to get Rank 14 are coming out of the woodwork to try and manipulate a change to the system so they can get what they failed to get before.

But it won't happen, and players will still need to play 24/7 in order to get the title.

That was Vanilla, and that will be Classic.

[yoma]

But those are the facts. Anyone not working on WoW is not improving WoW. That's a fact.

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Right. Hiring 2 chefs when you only need 1 is a waste of money that could be used for other things. You should instead hire cooks, which can make any meal the chef desires, thus increasing the restaurant's output.

Should I take this metaphor into the literal terms for you?

You aren't contributing to either retail or vanilla WoW, so I suppose, by your own logic, your opinion is worthless because it's completely wasted. Go and apply for the retail WoW team so I can take interest in your point.

[Gum]

Ill take what I get but ill also leave feedback on systems that i think are genuinely problematic. Keep your assumptions about me to yourself, theyre largely wrong anyways. For one I never even implied i was the boss on anything. Im providing feedback and im getting somewhat pissed at the people trying to forbid me to leave that feedback. That is all. Should Blizzard decide to go with the old r14 system ill still happily play on the classic servers, id just prefer it if the r14 grind wasnt such a joke. You liked it? Fine. Dont understand you but cool. I didnt and id like to see it changed to something more meaningful than a system rewarding prepubescent wankers ruining their school leaving qualification over a pvp rank.

And I have yet to hear a better argument against it than "must be 100% classic" which simply doesn't fly. Considering Blizzard is already pondering class balancing changes (which i see as a double edged sword. Positive on the viability, negative in terms of the gameplay authenticy), Id much rather hear about any negative impact a pvp system change might have on the classic experience than people repeating the above quoted mantra. That mantra reminds me a ton about the thousands of morons aggressively shitting over people asking for classic servers with "will never happen" "rose tinted glasses" and the likes.

Blizzard will never change the pvp system? Well, Blizzard apparently will also never release classic servers so I quite frankly dont give a damn about people pretending to know what Blizzard will do and thusly I will continue giving feedback because so far Ive had great experiences with doing so, whereas constant naysayers without arguments have achieved nothing but coming accross as huge dicks and trolls who fuel on making other people feel miserable for trying to make suggestions.

Well you can call it whatever you want, but advocating removing a system, is advocating prevention of that system for those that enjoy it, making you the boss of who can and cannot participate in it.
You also cant seem to come up with a change, that youd like to see, other than "changed" its quite hard to make any arguement other than "no fuck off i liked it" when you present nothing to refute it other than "no fuck off i hated it". You give and you take, cept that you just take.
I think its fair, to expect you to come up with changes youd like to see, rather than having those that want it preserved come up with reasons to preserve it. I actually think, in most cases thats how it worlds out in the real world aswell, people are a lot more prone to accepting change, when they know what it entails. So, again, give up some of those ideas you have, so we can discuss them, instead of just sitting there pouting over a system you dislike.
Also, blizzard posted that they werent going to change the classic feel, but more what part of classic we wanted to play. Its in a blue post somewhere, surely you can find it if you care. None the less, noone is a huge dick, they are passionate. Conservative minded people dont get convinced by getting called backwards conservative retard dickwards. They do it with good ideas, solid arguements and most importantly a moral highground. You seem unable to maintain that, by delving into profanity so easily, ad hominem makes people much more defensive, and nothing useful will come of such a discussion. Its clearly something youre passionate about, but truth be told, its downs in lack of proper solutions and aggressive rhetoric.
Its your job to convince us that the mantra is wrong, not ours. Im sure you know that, you seem like a smart kid.

[Deleted]

Yeah but if you start addressing all the things that are counterproductive to positive gameplay experience then Classic is going to morph into BfA...

When live WOW goes back to server communities with no account services like transfers or name changes, back to non-linear dungeon designs with summoned bonus bosses that required effort to get the prerequisites for (starting from blood of heroes for kirtonos going to tons of setup for a DM tribute run), standard world mobs that hit so fucking hard that you have to eat after every pull and other such stuff then maybe bfa would tickle what i loved about classic. Until then I guess its fine to look at classic and ask yourself if aoe looting would really be detrimental to the experience or maybe a much needed addition that doesnt take anything away from what made classic great.

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The general meta to the system is fine, but they need to fix honor normalization. The way it used to work was that it was basically impossible to get HWL/GM if you weren't getting the most honor each week. They could probably soften the curve to allow people to grind through the ranks a little faster and not make it as dependent on the performance of other players.

Thanks for the suggestion but if climbing the ranks gets detached fromthe performance of others wouldnt that mean more r14s?

I think the number of people who can get it should stay prestigiously low solely based on the fact that the r14 gear is absurdly strong and making it reliably and quickly farmable in any fashion would instantly kill all pve content before AQ40 at least. Why bother running ubrs for class chest for t0.5 upgrade when grand marshals chest is much easier/more reliably acquireable?

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Yeah so we can Skip MC & BWL and hop straight into AQ40 after a few weeks of PvP'ing, that's the Vanilla Experience I'm looking for !

I pretty much made sure to include that any changes to the system need to be wary of this but good on you for being incapable of reading and still feeling like you have to participate in a forum discussion. /clap

[Cebel]

Getting its own team = a team that could be working on WoW, but isn't.

You have zero fucking clue on how design and business teams work. More != better.

[Deleted]

Well you can call it whatever you want, but advocating removing a system, is advocating prevention of that system for those that enjoy it, making you the boss of who can and cannot participate in it.

I dont think that making suggestions that suit my own interest is making me a boss. Thats absurd reasoning.

You also cant seem to come up with a change, that youd like to see, other than "changed" its quite hard to make any arguement other than "no fuck off i liked it" when you present nothing to refute it other than "no fuck off i hated it".

But thats not true at all. I specifically lined out that i want to keep the prestige (aka the number of r14s per week stays the same) while rewarding skill over time investment. I suggested a simple winrate solution or a more complex ELO solution while making it clear that these are just suggestions and I really would take anything as long as its not "no life or no chance". Not sure what else you expect.

Also, blizzard posted that they werent going to change the classic feel, but more what part of classic we wanted to play. Its in a blue post somewhere, surely you can find it if you care.

Earlier, the front page had a forum post about blizz being open to the idea of class balance changes for viability reasons. I guess thats a much harsher cut into classic than the awful pvp system would be. Imo anyways. But again, at the end of the day its blizzards call, im merely giving input.

None the less, noone is a huge dick, they are passionate. Conservative minded people dont get convinced by getting called backwards conservative retard dickwards.

I would generally agree with you but internet is always different and when it comes to classic servers i just absolutely know that there are assholes around who just want to fuck shit up and if someones entire argument is "no + blizzard wont listen to feedback anyways" i wont take them seriously and wont treat them respectfully. Ive seen so much assholery on the classic debate from people who dont give a shit about classic servers and yet felt the strong urge to sabotage and manipulate all discussion around it, attacking and berating people who just genuinely enjoyed classic wow... i wont give those guys any respect. If they dont care to argue my points, i wont care to argue theirs.



Thanks for the respectful reply. I enjoy answering those. And it goes both ways. When I make a post specifically lining out e.g. that the prestige must be maintained and then some asshat barges in with an asinine comment like "yea so that everyone can be r14 by week 2 and skip all content to aq40" which i SPECIFICALLY lined out as a 'must avoid' scenario then that guy is a troll to me. Ive been on the internet for far too long to let trolls dance on my nose like that.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This is a change right?

So in other words.. NOPE.

[Devilyaki]

I made high warlord, it was a fun time, most of the top racks had friends helping each other out to get the last weeks of honor for it though.

[RapBreon]

Now Im very much for leaving the classic experience as untouched as possible but can we talk about this garbage pile of a system?

It was literally impossible for someone with a life outside of wow to get high pvpranks. Had nothing to do with skill, just 100% with how much time you could invest. And the threshold was so absurd that you were going up against accountsharers playing a given char 24/7.

Sorry dude, but that's what a lot of Vanilla was about. A game of time. If you really care about skill, other games might be better suiting.

The fact it promotes 'unhealthy' habits is interesting though. Considering it is 2017, I do wonder how a system that encourages such behaviour would be taken.

[Mormolyce]

That's not even remotely true. Nothing impacts the experience worse than a grindfest to see who can play the longest amongst entire servers.

But Vanilla was full of grindfests.

[Sormine]

But Vanilla was full of grindfests.

Yeah but this grindfest involved making everyone in the same faction compete against each other.

Think about it. Competing against your own faction for PvP related rewards.

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Except I did play back then. And it was still an accomplishment. So much of an accomplishment that it took playing 24/7, sharing accounts, and griefing people so they would not get it.

Thank you for making my point for me. Just because you do not agree with HOW it was accomplished, doesn't mean it wasn't an accomplishment.

Sounds like someone is still butthurt 13 years later........

If you call account sharing/griefing/botting an accomplishment. You don't really have a strong case for "fun" gameplay experience.

[Deleted]

The vanilla will be vanilla people are trolls or just ignorant.

After the recent blue posts of having a discussion... of course they're going to make changes. This is Blizzard of 2017 and they have to stand by their products with as much Blizzard polish as possible.

There's absolutely 0% chance of the honor system being in classic as it was back in original vanilla.

[Deleted]

Private InsaneskillXXX will have to stay private no matter how hard the rage

[RapBreon]

Yeah but this grindfest involved making everyone in the same faction compete against each other.

Think about it. Competing against your own faction for PvP related rewards.

That makes perfect sense to me. It's supposed to be a 'prestige system' based on a real life analogy of military ranks. Higher ranks are fewer in number, promotion is based on 'merit' (I.e. most enthusiastic killer of the enemy). Competition for promotion in this kind of system is with your cohorts, not your enemies (I.e. another military). I'm not saying it's a good system as a whole, but it does make sense to me.

Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but due to the two-faction design, how else would you design it?