Balance the classes. Keep the content the same. Just stop.

[Lucavian]

Won't "balancing the classes" mean ret paladins have a really devastating autoswing? lol

[Thimagryn]

Higher health pool, more armor, better AoE, still good single target threat. Literally the only reason they were worse than Warriors to begin with, as you yourself admit, was because they randomly got hit with two crushing blows in a row. And you're suggesting taking that away.

Who the fuck said this was the ONLY reason they were worse than Warriors? Druids don't have Block or Parry, and they require more heals considering they still take Crushing Blows. What you're talking about is a DEF-CAPPED Druid. A Warrior that is Def capped would never take Crushing Blows as well as be able to mitigate more damage overall through Blocks and Parries. That still makes them the better tank.

It'd be more like "Let's reduce the cooldown on Innervate specifically for Balance druids so they can have mana all the time, they still won't be as good as mages cause it didn't increase their damage at all."

OOM is still a part of caster gameplay. If you think that's what you think balance tweaks mean, then you're the one who is talking about changing how the game plays, not me.

I'm concerned because this change is unnecessary to begin with.

Why would you change it, find out it's still broken, then just leave it broken? That'd be the dumbest way to handle a situation ever. "Well, we tried" isn't an excuse.

You do understand what a Balance Tweak is right? A Tweak is not an Overhaul, and you keep addressing everything as an overhaul.

Again, not asking for overhauls. Don't want them. Don't want to get rid of Hybrid Tax.

Yet the argument you bring again and again is that Hybrids will be superior as if Hybrid Tax suddenly gets removed. All of your problems only exist if we had overhauls LIKE giving Boomkins mana all the time. That's not what's happening. I'm literally saying tweak all the known end-game issues that exist in 1.12 in order to smooth things out overall.

Ret Paladins can do decent DPS, they just suffer from heavy RNG from procs. They could be kings of burst when lucky, or suffer bottom tier DPS when they don't. Having a raid-optional talent (possibly in early Prot tree) that normalizes this would make them more consistent and reliable. For those who want classic style gameplay that had all the RNG burst and unlucky string of no-procs? Don't take the talent; simple as that.

[evogsr]

Fleugen, don't even try to argue with Ielenia.

He's the one cuck who I shut down a while back when he couldn't prove when his account was created after he kept trying to enter threads talking about vanilla, when it was clear he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.

[FreaknRhinos]

Correct, which is why I would prefer nothing changes.

Try one thing. I dare you to tell me one thing that goes against my own logic.

Or I'm posting my opinion on a forum for opinions and you're upset that it doesn't match yours. I don't get people like you.

But you cannot have Classic servers currently without changes. Simple fact. You cannot have the same experience and never will. Even if Blizzard releases a "Close Enough" (which Blizzard said, and you linked.) isn't Classic.

You said fine with "close enough". Where is the that line drawn? You said graphical updates, and I proven to you how that matters. Even graphical updates will affect game play. You seem to fail on this logic.

It's like now a day tech and it's clashes with old tech. You see it on TV a lot.

My wife was complaining on "Frasier" that you can see the Trainer's shadow getting Eddy(the dog), ready to do tricks. My comment was on the old TVs you couldn't see it. And you couldn't.

I have seen complaints about Gone with the Wind and such. Because the films weren't made with the current Tech in mind. So nuances, like shadows, from then weren't apparent then. But today these issues, in full view, will be jarring and apparent. Blizzard will need to fix these issues.

Blizzard fixing these issues will result in the game not being Classic right from the jump.


So, you have to ask yourself, if you are OK with those changes making to Live Classic. Then you admit to being OK with not having a True Vanilla experience.

The what made Classic, Classic, for you? If you boil it down, it's design choices that are Blizzard don't value now a days.

If it's the design choices that matter, then what the fuck does it matter if it's French Vanilla or just Vanilla Vanilla, because it admit you're going to eat it either way.

That's how you are flowing against your own logic, and why you are trolling.

[Riistov]

Retailers want to "fix" vanilla, more news at 11.

I think its really odd you're using the term "retailers" like everyone who plays retail wants the same thing and is scheming to destroy classic wow before it even begins.

I play retail, I also was and am a huge supporter of classic servers as are many in my guild/friends list. I played on Nost, I also played Legion since day 1 and enjoyed both.

I don't want them to change a thing with classic...I want to play the same game I started playing in 2004. Oh yeah, I'm also looking forward to BfA

[tss]

Ok, when Blizzard changed Talent trees to be less impactful, a part of the community used the same logic as you used. You're dumbass if you can't research. 13 years old, or 1 month old, the problem is people willing to put the work in. But you see which logic what won out in the end.

It was argued that everything should be self explanatory, and the choices shouldn't matter as much. That all information you should have should be in the game itself. That every choice should be viable. It's how we got retail talent trees.

You obviously weren't at the crux of Vanilla, if you never seen this argument before.

I asked what you were talking about because you're incomprehensible. At least now you've managed to communicate your stupid point.

Vanilla is vanilla.

[FreaknRhinos]

So you're just wrong in every assumption you make and somehow that makes ME the troll?

I'm not assuming anything you are giving me all the ammo I need.

No, I will not play Classic if it's a bastardized version of Classic. And I don't like French Vanilla. I actually prefer Vanilla Bean ice cream, but I like Vanilla WoW and would prefer to get Vanilla WoW. Your logic is flawed.

First off, due to Technical updates you cannot have graphics update without changing gameplay. I gave examples. Next, you cannot have a Classic experience due to this issue alone.

Blizzard cannot reproduce the same game, due to Tech differences of the time. Simply cannot happen. You are trolling if you say otherwise, and I gave example of where it clashes with other tech. It's no different. This isn't opinion.

I played Nost. It was NOTHING like Vanilla, it was Vanilla like, but to say it was Vanilla is plain bullshit. You are asking for Nost from Blizzard. They CANNOT REPRODUCE the experience. Not even close. Delusional to the max degree if you think they can.

Blizzard will give you a bastardized version of Classic, by your own standards. Then I have to ask why your a bothering typing, either it's trolling or too dumb to see the big picture. Pick one.

[tss]

Won't "balancing the classes" mean ret paladins have a really devastating autoswing? lol

It would mean that they would be capable of sustaining enough mana to not negatively impact overall raid DPS (external buffs considered) during long boss fights.

[FreaknRhinos]

I asked what you were talking about because you're incomprehensible. At least now you've managed to communicate your stupid point.

Vanilla is vanilla.

You weren't there and that's very apparent. You used a classic argument keep Talent trees and other philosophies the same, at the time. You had not a clue what I was talking about, because you never had the knowledge to begin with.

So yeah, I look incomprehensible to the kid 20 years younger, because you don't recognize the argument that was made 13 years ago. Maybe get some hair on your balls first before you come at me, kid.

- - - Updated - - -

This is just plainly false, and gives me all reason in the world to stop responding to you. Literally everything you said was either completely false, or an assumption which turned out to be false.

Good luck with your crusade or whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish here.

Its not false, saying it is false, doesn't make the case.

If you want to explain why it's false, bring it on. You can't, admit that you won't, which makes you a troll. Thanks. Really are too dumb to see the bigger picture.

[Thimagryn]

When singular heals are able to bring a tank from half to full, this literally does not matter whatsoever. Healers can manage keeping a Druid up if they're guaranteed to only take one crushing blow every few seconds.

Healers spending the rank heals to do that would go OOM pretty quick. That's always been the case of healing Ferals. Healers can manage keeping a Druid up if you're talking about healers with infinite mana pools.

When you're talking about 'just giving Paladins a taunt' as if they didn't intentionally keep one from them to begin with, you ARE talking overhauls.

Paladins need threat mechanics, but just giving Taunt may not be an ideal solution. My opinion is that the identity of the class must be retained. I would opt for creative solutions that already exist within the Vanilla realm; like judging a seal that causes a large spike in threat with the right talents and right conditions. The 1.12 workaround for lack of Taunt has been boosting spellpower and using judgements to keep threat anyhow.

You can't change minor things without changing minor things for just about everyone else, which then leads to more minor things, and more minor things, and MORE minor things, until we're left with a completely unrecognizable class lineup.

Vanilla already does that within itself. If you can consider 1.0 to 1.12 as the same game, then 1.13 isn't something to worry about. Feral Druids couldn't tank raids or dungeons in 1.0. Literally COULD NOT TANK because their scaling was way undertuned. If 1.0 underlines all design intent, then 1.12 should never have allowed them to be viable dungeon and raid tanks.

[Daggot Ur]

But you cannot have Classic servers currently without changes. Simple fact. You cannot have the same experience and never will. Even if Blizzard releases a "Close Enough" (which Blizzard said, and you linked.) isn't Classic.

You said fine with "close enough". Where is the that line drawn? You said graphical updates, and I proven to you how that matters. Even graphical updates will affect game play. You seem to fail on this logic.

It's like now a day tech and it's clashes with old tech. You see it on TV a lot.

My wife was complaining on "Frasier" that you can see the Trainer's shadow getting Eddy(the dog), ready to do tricks. My comment was on the old TVs you couldn't see it. And you couldn't.

I have seen complaints about Gone with the Wind and such. Because the films weren't made with the current Tech in mind. So nuances, like shadows, from then weren't apparent then. But today these issues, in full view, will be jarring and apparent. Blizzard will need to fix these issues.

Blizzard fixing these issues will result in the game not being Classic right from the jump.


So, you have to ask yourself, if you are OK with those changes making to Live Classic. Then you admit to being OK with not having a True Vanilla experience.

The what made Classic, Classic, for you? If you boil it down, it's design choices that are Blizzard don't value now a days.

If it's the design choices that matter, then what the fuck does it matter if it's French Vanilla or just Vanilla Vanilla, because it admit you're going to eat it either way.

That's how you are flowing against your own logic, and why you are trolling.

You are merely twisting the logic behind fixing bugs and glitches. Blizzard did not intended those bugs to be created to begin with. They did not develop them on purpose. So fixing them has nothing to do with changing Vanilla.
You are right about changing graphics- it does change the experience, for me at least. So I would keep the original Vanilla to every bit of it.

The bigger question is - what happens when one day Blizzard will take their shit together and make an official announcement of what their plan for Vanilla looks like and what will be mandatory changes that will not be reversed - like battle net intergration for example or maybe starting at patch 1.12. Will I accept it or not? Will the majority accept it or not?

[Unholyground]

On the surface I agree balancing the specs some would be good, but the issue is you can't do that in a vacuum. You'll need to give specs abilities they don't have in vanilla, like a taunt for prot paladins. Itemization and set bonuses are a mess for many classes. Buffing certain specs to compete could easily cause ripples throughout the meta. The issue becomes how to do you make say prot paladins viable as main raid tanks without overhauling too much?

Tweak MP5 values on paladin sets and it would be a great step in the right direction, the taunt is not the main issue, it was depleting mana so fast that you could not use your big threat generators.

[Ielenia]

There were maybe two specs total that weren't raid viable. (Arcane mage comes to mind as a possibility.) Everyone else (Yes, including Ret) was raid viable. They just didn't get taken, because there was always a few DPS that were better at their jobs.

So they weren't viable. Because there were much better alternatives.

Still viable. Druids tanked Garr. Paladins could tank just about everything, just required more threat effort. It was just harder than tanking on a Warrior.

You're making my case for me, here. Why take the tank that would force the damage-dealers to throttle their own dps even more than they already did?

I pointed you to my proof.

Which isn't conclusive proof as it could still go either way, like I pointed out.

We were never talking about after the fact.

If you're talking about stuff added after WoW went live, then yes, we're talking after the fact.

And if we are, then Druids and Paladins can tank everything prior to tier raids just fine. They could tank every dungeon without a problem.

"Without a problem"? Really? And even assuming that is true (and I believe it isn't), dungeons weren't WoW's endgame.

Then I guess we can point to the mountain of things they said they'd do that they actually did to say "It's more likely that they will than they won't." Right?

Except this isn't a question of what they're most likely to do, but a question of what they could do.

Oh I could. It wouldn't even be hard to do. I choose not to because you're not worth the effort.

Sure, buddy. Whatever you say that helps you sleep at night. I know what I wrote. It's right here in this thread. Hell, you can even easily search my post history and find out. And I'm so not the effort that you just can't quit responding to me, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Fleugen, don't even try to argue with Ielenia.

He's the one cuck who I shut down a while back

Insults. The go-to tactic of those without arguments.

[FreaknRhinos]

The bigger question is - what happens when one day Blizzard will take their shit together and make an official announcement of what their plan for Vanilla looks like and what will be mandatory changes that will not be reversed - like battle net intergration for example or maybe starting at patch 1.12. Will I accept it or not? Will the majority accept it or not?

I'm not twisting the logic at all. The outcome of bug fixes - changes how you will play the game, and what you had to deal with at the time. Intentional or not.

So, ANY fixes aren't what players had to deal with, changing the experience for today.

If you fix Stealth, you changed what it meant to play a Rogue or Feral. HELL, even a Night Elf as Meld racial was based on Stealth. Does any one remember sitting in Stealth lowered your visibility? That was a bugged, and just about every Rogue has used it that played back then. Fixing that, changes Rogues and how they will play.


But to your other point, I doubt purist will accept anything. Blizzard cannot reproduce the experience, and they will just have to get over it.

[Skomoto]

You're tearing me apart lisa!!!!!

[evogsr]

So they weren't viable. Because there were much better alternatives.


You're making my case for me, here. Why take the tank that would force the damage-dealers to throttle their own dps even more than they already did?


Which isn't conclusive proof as it could still go either way, like I pointed out.


If you're talking about stuff added after WoW went live, then yes, we're talking after the fact.


"Without a problem"? Really? And even assuming that is true (and I believe it isn't), dungeons weren't WoW's endgame.


Except this isn't a question of what they're most likely to do, but a question of what they could do.


Sure, buddy. Whatever you say that helps you sleep at night. I know what I wrote. It's right here in this thread. Hell, you can even easily search my post history and find out. And I'm so not the effort that you just can't quit responding to me, right?

- - - Updated - - -


Insults. The go-to tactic of those without arguments.

Which part was the insult? That you're a cuck? That I called you out in a thread to provide proof that you even played Vanilla, and then you produced nothing, fled from the thread after everyone had a good laugh?

If there's any insult to be had, it's that you've consistently been an insult to anyone's intelligence that engages with you.

[FreaknRhinos]

Which part was the insult? That you're a cuck? That I called you out in a thread to provide proof that you even played Vanilla, and then you produced nothing, fled from the thread after everyone had a good laugh?

If there's any insult to be had, it's that you've consistently been an insult to anyone's intelligence that engages with you.

He is making valid points though.

Being a Vanilla player or not, doesn't invalidate ANY point being made, it's a logical fallacy. You've painted yourself into a corner and just look ridiculous to those with logical arguments. It's called the Burden of Proof logical fallacy and you have stepped right into it.

[evogsr]

He is making valid points though.

Being a Vanilla player or not, doesn't invalidate ANY point being made, it's a logical fallacy. You've painted yourself into a corner and just look ridiculous to those with logical arguments. It's called the Burden of Proof logical fallacy and you have stepped right into it.

Ah yes. All valid points. Because you and him haven't been echoing each other on almost every point the last few pages of this thread.

[Ielenia]

That's not what viable means. They were viable, AND there were better alternatives.

That's a basically technicality. If you're forming a raid group, and you have the option between a mage and a ret pally, unless it's a friend of yours or a guildmate, it's highly unlikely you'll pick the paladin over the mage. They may be technically viable, but they weren't practically viable.

How is it not conclusive that the only class to get a tier set with tanking attributes is the one they intended to tank?

That's literally a 1:1 comparison. "The one with tanking stats should be the tank." Shocker.

Because it's after the fact. "Welp, we done goofed, might as well keep going."

At no point in time did either of us specify what point in WoW's life we were talking about.

When you're talking about the game's development, you're talking about the moment prior to WoW launch.

And what they could do is most likely...

Again, irrelevant. Because what they're 'most likely to do' was never the question.

Apparently you don't. And I've gotta fill the "I'm stuck at work until close on the day before thanksgiving with nothing to do" hours after all.

If you have free time, then you have time to back your case. Either provide the examples, or shut up about it.

[Deleted]

It will be hard to please the audience so i think blizzard will change classic abit but keep it as authentic as possible, there was alot of broken specs ingame so i would like to see that fixed.