Heroic Coven Add Health Stealth Buffed?

[Ozyorkbourne]

Well in case of Aman'thul adds it's pretty important to have high dps as you need to be able to kill adds fast or the damage ramps up to unhealable levels.

180-200 million hp in a 25-30 man raid is still very little. That;s 18 dps doing 180-200 million (10-12 million each) over a generous cast time. Assuming your DPS have CDs and can do 1.2 mill dps (Easy with 935 ilvl, ToS 4 set and CDs), that's 2 dying in the first 20 second cast then the 3rd dies on its second cast. - The healers are the only real problem, since even with chain lightning there is plenty of room in all the safe zones to be 2 yards apart. And the fire adds still melt is dps know how to target switch. It's not so much about high dps as it is competent dps who can target swap or save CDs.

[izayoi80]

Goes without saying that it should scale properly. That said, the fight is pretty rough. I had about 70-75 wipes before I decided to make my own group and finally get them down.

Coven of Shivarra must be one of the least pug-friendly bosses ever.

[faithbane]

Great they made the worst fight in there even more shitty.

Oh a storm is coming in together with an Aman'thuls torment? Your melee cannot kill their assigned adds? Guess it is a wipe completety outside your control.

Fuck this Tomb-esque shit show cancer fight.

Did you see the first mythic kill on it? They had ZERO melee lol.. well designed fight obviously

[Ophenia]

180-200 million hp in a 25-30 man raid is still very little. That;s 18 dps doing 180-200 million (10-12 million each) over a generous cast time. Assuming your DPS have CDs and can do 1.2 mill dps (Easy with 935 ilvl, ToS 4 set and CDs), that's 2 dying in the first 20 second cast then the 3rd dies on its second cast. - The healers are the only real problem, since even with chain lightning there is plenty of room in all the safe zones to be 2 yards apart. And the fire adds still melt is dps know how to target switch. It's not so much about high dps as it is competent dps who can target swap or save CDs.

Why don't you even take in these calculations the simple, basic facts that you WILL have a storm during the Torments phases ? If the safe spot is too far away from any Aman'thuls, you can remove all your melees for a few seconds (or remove them from the fight if they try to tank the storm).

The only solution for this is to keep the Bloodlust/re-pot for Aman'thuls phase. Other adds are not really problematic (Golganneth and Khaz'goroth are not dealing significant damage and Norgannon is only control).
The only problem with that is that Torments are random. So you cannot really time your offensive cooldowns accordingly.
But this problem will smoothe out with the ilvl increase.

[Tehterokkar]

They did buff it CONSIDERABLY. We had to save Bloodlust and even still barely killed 2 off in a 30 man group, and we were 945 ilvl average in the group with alts mixed in.

Here are before and after hotfix values(Week 1 vs. Week 2 logs):

Week 1:


Week 2:


They over tripled the health of the Amanthul adds health in 30 man size.

This is seriously ridiculous.

[Caprix]

Lol I feel better as we got blocked by covent HM first week. We went there late in the week, Amanthul torments already had 95M in 14 sized raid.

[Deleted]

Lol I feel better as we got blocked by covent HM first week. We went there late in the week, Amanthul torments already had 95M in 14 sized raid.

when will they finally learn and drop this flex non-sense

they never manage to properly scale the bosses

Ilgynoth was another example, bosses with adds are always a disaster in scaling. Ilgynoth with 10 people was very very difficult dps check, when you added 20 more average players it was a cake walk where you had to wait for the next wave to even spawn.


Merge Normal and Heroic Raid into one difficulty "Normal" with a fixed raid size of 10.

Rebrand Mythic Raid into Heroic 20 man Raid.


Remove Mythic 0 dungeons. Rebrand Mythic+ into Heroic+.

I think this would be a huge improvement to the game.

[Caprix]

I liked 10man Helya HM too. 2 dispells, 3 debuffs at the same time...

[Ozyorkbourne]

Why don't you even take in these calculations the simple, basic facts that you WILL have a storm during the Torments phases ? If the safe spot is too far away from any Aman'thuls, you can remove all your melees for a few seconds (or remove them from the fight if they try to tank the storm).

The only solution for this is to keep the Bloodlust/re-pot for Aman'thuls phase. Other adds are not really problematic (Golganneth and Khaz'goroth are not dealing significant damage and Norgannon is only control).
The only problem with that is that Torments are random. So you cannot really time your offensive cooldowns accordingly.
But this problem will smoothe out with the ilvl increase.

Why don't I take in the fact a storm will happen? Because we had this last night and killed it, along with a lot of other guilds. The fight is 90% mechanic based, use some raid CDs to survive then nuke the adds like hell, perhaps with 2nd pots and maybe with lust. Saving lust for a choke-point moment in a fight isn't a poor fight design, it's encouraging a raid to be organised and not just zerg until ilvl catches up. Having unscaled hp adds means that this aspect of the fight didn't happen and in week 1 this was a target dummy fight by comparison. Nothing wrong with heroic bosses being hard and wiping you if you whoops.

[Socialhealer]

I liked 10man Helya HM too. 2 dispells, 3 debuffs at the same time...

you have to do what 20man guilds were doing take 3-4 spriests, so 1-2 for 10man, sure your 10man group might not have any, what if the 20man had none? they were equally screwed.

[david0925]

when will they finally learn and drop this flex non-sense

they never manage to properly scale the bosses

Ilgynoth was another example, bosses with adds are always a disaster in scaling. Ilgynoth with 10 people was very very difficult dps check, when you added 20 more average players it was a cake walk where you had to wait for the next wave to even spawn.


Merge Normal and Heroic Raid into one difficulty "Normal" with a fixed raid size of 10.

Rebrand Mythic Raid into Heroic 20 man Raid.


Remove Mythic 0 dungeons. Rebrand Mythic+ into Heroic+.

I think this would be a huge improvement to the game.

n/h isn't focused on balance as much as convenience to fit people in anywhere from 10-30 people. This is also exactly why Mythic shouldn't be flex

[Caprix]

you have to do what 20man guilds were doing take 3-4 spriests, so 1-2 for 10man, sure your 10man group might not have any, what if the 20man had none? they were equally screwed.

I'm talking about http://www.wowhead.com/spell=228054/taint-of-the-sea, as soon as you had 3 healers all was fine, well at least up to around 20 players, never did it with very big raids. But with 10 players she would debuff one tank and two randoms and it was really annoying, made the first phase much more difficult than with 15 players.

[jearle]

The adds have more HP but it looks like the Storm damage was stealth nerfed. Doing the fight with 16 people last week the storms were ticking for 2.4 million ish. Last night with 20 people the storm was ticking for 1.5 million.

Being melee on this fight is cancer, i cant recall a more unfriendly melee fight in several tiers.

First two bosses suck with frontal + spears and in general chasing the bosses as they are swapped.

There are so many times that Amanthul + Storm without a nearby safe zone caused melee to be unable to kill their priority target and are stuck. Yes it can be done by using lust and having the ranged carry the raid but it still sucks especially as a melee to not be able DPS the adds in this fight.

It is obvious why guilds on mythic use all ranged because it makes the fight considerably easier even on heroic.

[Temp name]

Made what was already the hardest boss in the instance, by far, even more difficult. Not sure I agree with the change.

[Kluian05]

The adds have more HP but it looks like the Storm damage was stealth nerfed. Doing the fight with 16 people last week the storms were ticking for 2.4 million ish. Last night with 20 people the storm was ticking for 1.5 million.

Being melee on this fight is cancer, i cant recall a more unfriendly melee fight in several tiers.

First two bosses suck with frontal + spears and in general chasing the bosses as they are swapped.

There are so many times that Amanthul + Storm without a nearby safe zone caused melee to be unable to kill their priority target and are stuck. Yes it can be done by using lust and having the ranged carry the raid but it still sucks especially as a melee to not be able DPS the adds in this fight.

It is obvious why guilds on mythic use all ranged because it makes the fight considerably easier even on heroic.

Good to hear that the storm damage was reduced! Also of note, apparently add health was reduced by 10% (at least Amun'thul) and those adds had their cast time increased from 20 to 25 seconds on normal and heroic difficulty.

[Soisoisoi]

you have to do what 20man guilds were doing take 3-4 spriests, so 1-2 for 10man, sure your 10man group might not have any, what if the 20man had none? they were equally screwed.

20 man guilds just had a third (or more) healer and it was sorted. Anyone with 10-13 players would be taking a healer purely to dispel because healing definitely wasn't needed. You had to hope you had a Spriest or Lock who knew he had a pet that could dispel too.

[Socialhealer]

20 man guilds just had a third (or more) healer and it was sorted. Anyone with 10-13 players would be taking a healer purely to dispel because healing definitely wasn't needed. You had to hope you had a Spriest or Lock who knew he had a pet that could dispel too.

i was talking about mythic, where you got 5 debuffs or something.

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I'm talking about http://www.wowhead.com/spell=228054/taint-of-the-sea, as soon as you had 3 healers all was fine, well at least up to around 20 players, never did it with very big raids. But with 10 players she would debuff one tank and two randoms and it was really annoying, made the first phase much more difficult than with 15 players.

i was talking about mythic, where you got 5 debuffs or something.

[Syld]

As a melee heavy group we had a bit of trouble last week but it was manageable if we had RNG in our favor, now the fight seems completely impossible for our group lol.

[Soisoisoi]

i was talking about mythic, where you got 5 debuffs or something.

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i was talking about mythic, where you got 5 debuffs or something.

So nothing to do with the topic, as this is about Heroic, and the problem was with guilds that ran a lower number of players. Mythic is tuned around players finding a way to beat it, with enough people to have 2 of each class. One lock or Spriest on top was enough including the 4 healers to get rid of all the Mythic debuffs - that's far more likely than having a regular normal/HC guild who only just has enough players to make a raid, having those classes. Doesn't make it right, don't get me wrong, but that's not the point.

[JJShadoe]

Still very doable. It should be hard. Aggramar and Argus should be harder.