Remember when Genn Greymane didn't watch the Horde cinematic for the Broken Shore?

[Fayolynn]

They still didn't tell the Alliance they were retreating

This. Sylvanus sounded a horn, the Forsaken archers withdrew from combat. It didn't come off as an actual retreat so much as the Horde going eh we are done here boys lets go home. Bad story telling by Blizzard to force conflict.

[Florena]

They were just rallying up the crowd, and oddly picked bad reasons on both sides especially by acting like the arrival of the Orcs was a peaceful thing that the Alliance ruined. It wasn't an explanation of the BFA war it was rhetoric to get the fans stoked and should not be taken as gospel.

[Khrux]

Nobody seems to mention the fact that the horde lost their warchief in the same conflict? The call for retreat came when Sylvanas saw Vol'jin, Baine and Thrall defeated and overrun. The horde was never going to be in a position to help the alliance at that point, Sylvanas actually saved the horde by calling a retreat at that point.

From the alliances point of view, the horde retreat cost them their king, but ultimately the horde cost was just the same in the loss of their warchief and would have been even greater if they stayed longer.

I don't portray Sylvanas as a hero, but her obsession with self-preservation actually benefitted the horde for once and gave Blizzard a free pass for creating a conflict between the factions. I just don't understand why the alliance somehow consider the loss of Varian that day as a huge betrayal by the Horde but give no acknowledgement to the loss of Vol'jin in the same battle. There's two sides to this, which you can watch on youtube if you want, don't play the victim when you lost an overconfident and zealous leader that sacrificed himself when all hope was lost anyway.

[Halyon]

I would rather say Varian die because he did not chicken out.

...staying and dying is downright retarded rather than living to fight another day. Staying behind was a death-sentence. Any decent army doesn't waste troops that way, thus they hauled their asses out.

Varian decided to go back. He chose to die.

[mysticx]

This. Sylvanus sounded a horn, the Forsaken archers withdrew from combat. It didn't come off as an actual retreat so much as the Horde going eh we are done here boys lets go home. Bad story telling by Blizzard to force conflict.

Still, with all the contact between the factions through class orders and such, it’s a bit silly to believe that lorewise nobody of any class asked “So, what was actually going on up there anyway?” and found out the truth that way, i just chalk the whole thing up to Blizzard being apparently unable to write a storyline involving more than four or so people, it’s always one or two people per faction dragging everybody else along with the rest meekly tagging along because it’s not their turn...

Whether the faction leader is a “warchief” or “high king”, the other racial leaders and their people should have their own opinions about the current goings-on, speak up and at times act on those opinions (The only one doing that is Genn, but that’s purely to further the faction war plot), but again, Blizz can’t “juggle” that many characters at once.

Either that, or it’s an insidious ploy by Blizzard, give us two hints and an unclear picture of Teldrassil burning, and the players will be at war with each other before the factions are! :3

[Halyon]

This. Sylvanus sounded a horn, the Forsaken archers withdrew from combat. It didn't come off as an actual retreat so much as the Horde going eh we are done here boys lets go home. Bad story telling by Blizzard to force conflict.

Yes they did. Sounding very loud horns for retreat is telling the alliance "we're getting the hell out, so should you". It's a very fast way of letting people know. Words don't carry that far, and magic is slower.

[Hyral]

My point is people that play wow tend to treat unsubstantiated rumors as facts.

Genn is crazy, for sure 100%.

Irony~ /10

[Aquinan]

Misunderstanding or not, the end result is that Varian died because Horde retreated.

Yeah we retreated because if we had stayed we would have all died, then your king would have died regardless you asshat.

[Torais]

This. Sylvanus sounded a horn, the Forsaken archers withdrew from combat. It didn't come off as an actual retreat so much as the Horde going eh we are done here boys lets go home. Bad story telling by Blizzard to force conflict.

Pretty much. The former soldier in me cringes every time I see a retreat in a movie or video game from a supposed professional army boil down to one side just running off with reckless abandon. A tactical withdraw on such a scale is an organised affair often using covering fire, feints, disciplined manoeuvres and even munitions such as mines and artillery strikes to cover retreats. The way Horde decided to just go down tools and flee would have been likely suicidal for their own army let alone the combined force, especially since they held the high ground during the encounter.

To be fair, I think it you can note this one down to Blizzard's poor writing over intentional suggestions Sylvanas is an inept general. It was still some
Saturday morning cartoon level scripting and story-telling though.

[Octavius]

Too be fair, Blizzard did not state that the Alliance had an actual reason to have beef with the horde over the Broken Shore. I am sure they know it was a misunderstanding, they wrote the thing.

I am saying Teldrassil burning, whatever it is that causes it and whenever it happens, is probably also a misunderstanding.

There's some Alliance players flat out expecting Sylvannas to be a truly evil big bad in this xpac and there's simply nothing actually pointing in that direction. But I think some WOW devs want you to think that it's possible.

Not really. A decent number of us (I belive) has no problem with sylvanas, cause "she's an evil bitch!11!1" just that, but problem is I'm sick as fuck being the faction who yes, wins in the end, but got the lowest story, lose everytime somethin important and so on. We are basically the idiots fucked up by the "smarter" (which is not) horde, and after that, go crazy because of misunderstandings and other stupid reasons. Jaina Proudmoore is a terrifying scar in that sense. If you want to know, I never faulted Sylvi for the broken shore, and actually We had a proper death for our king (Strange, we usually get the "admiral taylor treatment"), something the horde did not get with the warchief. It's true, she sounded the retreat. That's it. Getting closer to the tomb, pushing even more, would've resulted in the wipe of both armies. And if you wanna know, I belive there will be something else entirely behind teldrassil.

[Yassy]

I've seen both and the horde ran without providing flanking cover for the alliance to retreat as well. They basically abandoned their allies and said oh well we are trouble lets run away. Not even signal saying we have to retreat, just poof.

First, the Horn was the signal. Second, they had no way to get to them to provide cover. Theyre entirely cut off. Real warcraft characters dont have access to gamey mechanics like poofing a dragon mount into existing and crossing miles of terrain in seconds. The Horde were cut off from the Alliance and couldnt hold the ridge. They had two options: fight and die, or retreat.

Sounding the retreat alerted the Alliance that they were fighting a losing battle. Had they fought to the death and sacrificed the lives of almost every major military leader the Horde had, to momentarily pause the Legions advance, the Alliance wouldnt have caught wind of the trap the Legion set until it was too late.

Effectively killing the combined might of both the Alliance, Horde, AND the player characters who are the heros of this expansion.

[Shakou]

The Horde burn Teldrassil first, and taking Lorderon back was a direct relational to that - we still don’t know the how’s and why’s Teldrassil was burned.

You have no proof of who burns Teldrassil.

[ro9ue]

I would rather say Varian die because he did not chicken out.

There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.

[Shakou]

Pretty much. The former soldier in me cringes every time I see a retreat in a movie or video game from a supposed professional army boil down to one side just running off with reckless abandon. A tactical withdraw on such a scale is an organised affair often using covering fire, feints, disciplined manoeuvres and even munitions such as mines and artillery strikes to cover retreats. The way Horde decided to just go down tools and flee would have been likely suicidal for their own army let alone the combined force, especially since they held the high ground during the encounter.

To be fair, I think it you can note this one down to Blizzard's poor writing over intentional suggestions Sylvanas is an inept general. It was still some
Saturday morning cartoon level scripting and story-telling though.

I agree with your last couple of points but no professional army would have brazenly walked into that battle as the heroes of the Alliance and the Horde did in the first place.

As numerous posters have explained in here, it actually is revealed in the Rogue order hall campaign that the whole thing was a trap based on bad intelligence and that the Burning Legion had the upper hand the entire time and could have killed them all at any time, thankfully the writing was bad enough that running away actually was an option for the Horde.

Either way, game would be in a better state right about now if Genn and Varian had switched places. Literally would have resolved Genn's character in the act, instead of drawing out a conflict that even has forum posters at eachothers throats because they take their in-game faction allegiance way too seriously.

[cuafpr]

Bro it's got nothing to do with what faction you are on, to say this is a reason for Genn to spark a war just because of his lust for vengeance is totally insane.

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This is not true.

The Horde sounded horns signaling their retreat and they didn't provide flanking cover because they were flanked.

Plus the Rogue Campaign goes even further into it and explains that the whole attack on Broken Shore was based on bad Alliance Intel anyways. Like the Legion could have came in at any moment and just killed everyone but then we wouldn't have the dramatic effect of watching Tirion burn to death and so on.

bad Intel or not you don't just bail, the horns are weak at best given the situation. I admit they should have pre-planned a withdrawal signal. And even then you are providing cover which the archers were its not signal and run like hell, some hang back to cover the retreating forces.

[Spiffums]

Misunderstanding or not, the end result is that Varian died because Horde retreated.

No he died because there wasn't a mage with mass teleport.

[Zoldor]

He saved his friends/ men, he probably thought he might have been able to reach Gul'dan and kill him as a last act, he was brave, not stupid. He did what a King must do.

So it was all his choice and really isn't the horde's fault at all. They couldn't have stopped the Fel Reaver either. And really Sylvanas did the same thing, she saved her friends/men and alerted the Alliance to the retreat that saved everyone but Varian. Varian thinking he could one shot Gul'dan with an entire army surrounding him was folly, but he had no choice since he jumped down to kill the Fel Reaver.

Varian's choices led to his death, there was nothing the horde could have done to stop it, the majority of their heroes had already fallen.

[Fayolynn]

Yes they did. Sounding very loud horns for retreat is telling the alliance "we're getting the hell out, so should you". It's a very fast way of letting people know. Words don't carry that far, and magic is slower.

Again, the Forsaken calmly withdrew from battle, full on retreats don't work like that. Calmly withdrawing implies that everything is fine for them instead of them fleeing for their lives.

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I just chalk the whole thing up to Blizzard being apparently unable to write a storyline

This part I agree with 100%. The story would be so much better if Sylvanas had called for the retreat and actually warned the Alliance to the extent of the threat in some way. Then Gene could have know the truth but been convincing Anduin that the Horde betrayed the Alliance to further his need for vengeance. This would make Gene clearly a bad guy who was only looking out for his own needs being the cause of the next war. Instead we get a badly written misunderstanding causing all the issues.

[zanzan28]

That's not remotely accurate.

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Right, that too.

My point is people that play wow tend to treat unsubstantiated rumors as facts.

Genn is crazy, for sure 100%. And it's just hilarious how people based on nothing at all just assume Sylvannas personally destroys Teldrassil and that it sparks the new war, they also tend to be the same people that think Genn actually has a reason beyond his son dying to have personal grudge against Sylvannas.

You mean beyond his son getting brutally murdered by Sylvannas? And his country getting sacked by her? That's not enough of a reason to hate someone?

[Flatspriest]

No he died because there wasn't a mage with mass teleport.

No, he died because Genn didn't do his duty and sacrifice himself to protect his king. Everyone seems to forget that the Horde lost their warchief due to this fight as well. Vol'jin was mortally wounded and the Horde was being overrun was the only reason Sylvanas blew the retreat.