Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Talen]

Compare zul aman 10 man and zul aman 5 man its the same boss mechanics exept as you say for the tank swaps.

Once you start dropping mechanics you start removing the enhanced mechanics that make and define a raid. Not every raid encounter will use those enhanced mechanics but simply removing the extra tanks and healers necessitates the removal of mechanics that require extra tanks and healers to deal with. You also can't even design around the possibility of hybrid classes, or role switches ot dual specs because of the nature of party formation and class roles.

With your examples, you point out situations where you think dual tank mechanics could work. Thing is...even if you were right, you still can't design around two tanks here. An arms warrior in Defensive Stance lacks the toolkit a tank would have and that limits what the encounter can throw not just at him but also the main tank. It also requires changes into how those echanics scale up into 10s. Single parties also mean no split encounters because only one group can be healed. It limits the encounter because only one tank or one healer will be available.

And so on. You end up not adjusting the fight for lower numbers, but potentially redesigning it from the ground up and still ending up with a fight that can't have all the encounter mechanics multiple parties allows for.

You can have a multi tank encounter with 2 tanks or 5. You cannot have one with a single tank

But what about mages and warlocks tanking stuff off like in tbc.

The games moved away from such gimmick fights. And they are gimmicks unrelated to raid size. If gimmick fights were wanted, it wouldn't be that difficult to put them into the encounter in some way.

10 package better has more incentives or incentives that 25s do not have.

Yes. It means they have to do less work to get a 10 man group formed, or with more 10s available they don't wait as long to raid.

The raids themselves have no incentives....beyond those minor ones given to 25s, that is. Anyone who wants to do 25s can do so; all they need do is form a group. But that is not Blizzards responsibility and Blizzard are under no obligation to force people to raid that format.

take it as possibility to grow up

Its easy to tell someone to say no. Less easy to do. You want to be helpful. You don't want to be kicked. You don't want to be the one to hold your guild back. Recommend all the blogs you want, but the fact that people will - for whatever reason, be it good or bad - feel an obligation to raid if the option was there and do so will remain and Blizzard recognising this, recognising the fact this pressure exists, and recognising the multiple sources that cause it is a good thing.

Not giving end game players more to do was not, but thats what Blizzard is hoping to correct.

EJL

[Magpai]

You can't blame Blizzard for the choices of the community just because said choices are inconvenient for you.

People do 10mans because they prefer them, either the size or the convenience of putting them together. The only way Blizzard can "fix" that is to offer a lot of incentives for people to go against their preferences for the minority's sake, which is just dumb in principle (so the people who prefer 25mans now have it made, receiving the same "bribes" as those who prefer 10) or just taking away the community's choice to raid 10 to begin with, which is a bad move for reasons obvious to anyone who's not 100% selfish.

[Flapie]

I think if blizzard see's people putting effort back into getting 25 mans going again then maybe they will change their mind? doubtfull, but who knows?

[Deleted]

I think if blizzard see's people putting effort back into getting 25 mans going again then maybe they will change their mind? doubtfull, but who knows?

Why should people have to put efford in order to raid the size they want when the others don't have to?
And why blizzard will see the efford and change their mind since, all they did to those that went through Cata as 25 strugling, was to put more obstacles?

[DreamCast]

MoP will most likely be the last xpac for 25 man raiding. I have always run 25 man raiding guilds but I have realised there is no point doing this in MoP, so will be joining the 10 man raiding bandwagon. I prefer 25 man raiding but not enough for the extra effort required to maintain them.

Blizzard is literally talking shit when they say people have a choice.

[Nestoras]

MoP will most likely be the last xpac for 25 man raiding. I have always run 25 man raiding guilds but I have realised there is no point doing this in MoP, so will be joining the 10 man raiding bandwagon. I prefer 25 man raiding but not enough for the extra effort required to maintain them.

Blizzard is literally talking shit when they say people have a choice.

The answer regarding what grand majority of players want to raid in MoP is here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...es-combination

In this poll, almost 1 every two posters is voting for a single 15 people raiding model!
It is a reasonable, functional, exciting and fresh new begining.

When debates and quarrels are going on for so long, like in this endless (and pointless) 10vs25 situation, most people just want smt fresh and interesting. A new begining!

[Wilderness]

The answer regarding what grand majority of players want to raid in MoP is here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...es-combination

In this poll, almost 1 every two posters is voting for a single 15 people raiding model!
It is a reasonable, functional, exciting and fresh new begining.

When debates and quarrels are going on for so long, like in this endless (and pointless) 10vs25 situation, most people just want smt fresh and interesting. A new begining!

200 people voting in a poll hardly constitutes the grand majority of players. Even if you took everyone who visited the MMO-C forums you'd still have a very, very small percentage of total players.

[Donthealme]

The answer regarding what grand majority of players want to raid in MoP is here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...es-combination

In this poll, almost 1 every two posters is voting for a single 15 people raiding model!
It is a reasonable, functional, exciting and fresh new begining.

When debates and quarrels are going on for so long, like in this endless (and pointless) 10vs25 situation, most people just want smt fresh and interesting. A new begining!

Frankly if they took away 25 man raiding I would quit playing, I could care less about the 10 man crowd its a different ball game all together, people need to get over it and accept that 10 and 25 are not the same nor will they ever be. Both have different challenges that the other never encounters.

[Nestoras]

200 people voting in a poll hardly constitutes the grand majority of players. Even if you took everyone who visited the MMO-C forums you'd still have a very, very small percentage of total players.

I humply disagree. What defines a poll, is that it is based on a sample of the total.
Now in a scientifically implemented poll, you have to take under consideration few criteria.
1) That the poll voters, are a representative cluster of the total.
2) That the options provided are not guiding the voters towards a certain direction.
3) Explanation on why the given amount of voters are enough to provide statistically correct data.

In this poll, it can be claimed that the result is statistically correct already for the mmo champion subscribers. The same cannot be claimed about the total of wow playerbase, since mmo champion readers differ from the players that just log in and play the game.

In this poll also, and that is my opinion, the amount of choices include most of the options, with a posible exception of 40 people raids and a 20/40 dual size system, and also for an option for raids under 10 people. The reasons provided were that "it is not realistic in current state of the game" still, an option "other" is provided to cover those extremes.

Last about the minimum posible amount of people that can provide a representative result, it is stated that this cannot generally be under 30. Also in most of the polls conducted even for big countrie's national elections, rarely we have more than 1000 people as sample.

I don't want to claim anything more than the poll shows.
The diference is so vast, that the error margin can be set even at 10% (while usually it is set between 2-4%) and still provide a comfortable majority for the option "15 people-single size, raids"

[Wilderness]

In this poll, it can be claimed that the result is statistically correct already for the mmo champion subscribers.

No, it can't. You don't meet your own criteria #1 in that poll, as it is not a representative cluster of all MMO-C readers. It represents only the subset of forum-goers who visit Raids & Dungeons.

[Kendrel]

IMO 25 mans are in their death throes. The number of 25 man guilds being created held against the number of 25 man guilds turning to 10 man, or falling apart, is currently in deficit.

25 mans are alive only on LFR at the moment. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see raids being scaled down further to either 10 and 15 mans, or even just 15 mans. But that's for another expansion.

[Talen]

1) That the poll voters, are a representative cluster of the total.

And posters here aren't.

2) That the options provided are not guiding the voters towards a certain direction.

Which....here....they all do. It is very hard to craft a neutral question and you'd likely be surprised at how even simple phrasing can be leading.

3) Explanation on why the given amount of voters are enough to provide statistically correct data.

200 out of 10 million is a representative sample size. But not a good one or reliable one. The strength of the prefered option is telling, but the poll is unreliable.

As it is, 15 man would be best. However, it would involve significant disruption to guilds. My own feeling is that a move to a 6 man party system would help address bottlenecks in party/raid formation and 2-3 such parties would form a decent raid size.

Getting down to basics...


the issues with 25 is simple to state. It is intrinsically harder to create and maintain a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid. As a result, disproportionately fewer people are willing to create and run them. Those that do have become increasingly picky over who they raid with and with the pool of applicants being what is is, can afford to do so. Fewer raids means fewer spots and higher entry requirements mean extra work and hassle to prove yourself.

This is, however, not an issue of Blizzards creation, nor is it actually Blizzards responsibility to address. It is a problem with the community, with the players themselves. It is not a problem with the raid model....which, while imperfect, is still quite good and better than what was there before...but with those who form the raid group.

Of the players who do prefer 25s, few really like it enough to actually form and run a raid. ***THAT*** is the real problem. Arguments over extra rewards that aren't...indeed can't...happen or which mode is easier and how are simple distractions.

Having said that....is there anything Blizzard can do? Other than drop the current raid model which seems to be a highly successful one given the basic premise that "saving" 25s, or encouraging them, or ensuring their survival or even guaranteeing that they will see a certain level of activity, is not actually Blizzards concern or responsibility.

Yes.

1: Reward the raid leaders. NOT the raid...but the leaders. You'd want to take steps to ensure this isn't abused by setting Player A as raid leader while Payer B does the work
2: Improved tools directed at improved communication and raid management, available only to raid leaders to manage the raid
3: Improve cross-server functionality to increase the available pool of recruits

or possibly something a litle more exotic.....

4: Add a 26th raid slot for a raid manager. Someone who will simply be able to stand back and direct/manage the raid but who doesn't take part.

Should Blizzard do something? CAN they do something? Something other than provide additional incentives or reducing the difficulty inside the raid to compensate for the difficulty outside the raid (that has its own set of issues).

EJL

[Deleted]

Once you start dropping mechanics you start removing the enhanced mechanics that make and define a raid. Not every raid encounter will use those enhanced mechanics but simply removing the extra tanks and healers necessitates the removal of mechanics that require extra tanks and healers to deal with. You also can't even design around the possibility of hybrid classes, or role switches ot dual specs because of the nature of party formation and class roles.

With your examples, you point out situations where you think dual tank mechanics could work. Thing is...even if you were right, you still can't design around two tanks here. An arms warrior in Defensive Stance lacks the toolkit a tank would have and that limits what the encounter can throw not just at him but also the main tank. It also requires changes into how those echanics scale up into 10s. Single parties also mean no split encounters because only one group can be healed. It limits the encounter because only one tank or one healer will be available.

And so on. You end up not adjusting the fight for lower numbers, but potentially redesigning it from the ground up and still ending up with a fight that can't have all the encounter mechanics multiple parties allows for.

You can have a multi tank encounter with 2 tanks or 5. You cannot have one with a single tank



The games moved away from such gimmick fights. And they are gimmicks unrelated to raid size. If gimmick fights were wanted, it wouldn't be that difficult to put them into the encounter in some way.
EJL

You have based your argumentation around 5s not possibly becoming raids around that they cant have the mechanics that 10s would allow for.
When shown that the possibility is there you just say no it aint so.
On the other hand when talking about old 25 mechanics not in the game because of 10 vs 25 balancing you call those mechanics gimmick mechanics. Fact is warlock tanking was used about 2-3 times in bc. The lets split the raid up in 2 groups mechanic appears 1-2 times per expansion. Making it as much a gimmick as warlock tanking because its used very rarely. So if you can throw away one gimmick you can throw away the other.

My tanking examples where an encounter where an encounter supplied an add with the tanking skills available, and an encounter where you have to 1 person near a boss in a 2 boss encounter or else the boss would begin punishing your raid. In the first instance you have an add taken over by a group member tanking together with the tank --> its a multiple tank encounter. In the second example you have 1 person standing near the boss controlling the boss by giving him a target to attack. you might build even build in tank switches where the player tank switches bosses and a group member goes over to the other boss providing a target.

Again if blizzard schould decide to make 5 man raids they would just do it and say to people these are now raids, and thats just the way it is.

And so on. You end up not adjusting the fight for lower numbers, but potentially redesigning it from the ground up and still ending up with a fight that can't have all the encounter mechanics multiple parties allows for.

Which is what we have with 25 and 10 with 25s having more possibilities than 10s for designing great encounters. And when it comes to the arena of the fight 10s have the advantage because they have more space per person than 25s.


Again imo lets just get one big unisize raidsize that will give the most freedom of possibilities for the developers to concentrate on making great fights with awesome mechanics. instead of balancing around and being limited by having to accomodate to raidsizes into one dungeon and trying to balance things that cant be balanced properly at all.

[Donthealme]

This is, however, not an issue of Blizzards creation, nor is it actually Blizzards responsibility to address. It is a problem with the community, with the players themselves. It is not a poblem with the raid model....which, while imperfect, is still qruite good and better than what was there before...but with those who form the raid group.
EJL

While I disagree that the raid model is quite good....the rest hits the nail on the head, but at the same time is the reason the slide of 25 man guilds has been slowing now for months. Basically all the 25 man guild leaders who didn't have the time, committment, loyalty, or who were just casually leading went 10 man...those who actually WANT to do 25 mans are the guilds left, the players who understood from day 1 that they were going to spend extra time each week, or even day....the leaders who when the thought of going 10 man crosses thier mind see it as a failure because it's not what they want...the leaders who think, there is no way I can go to 10 man, I'm screwing over 20 people...those are the guilds that are still standing and won't be going anywhere soon. In addition(and this may just be a huge abberation on my server) there is 1 newly formed 25 man and 2 that are trying to form into 25 man from having two 10 man raid teams, so I think there is going to be somewhat of a comeback.

[Talen]

When shown that the possibility is there you just say no it aint so.

For the very good reason that "it ain't so". Your own post details the impossibility of certain mechanics that 5s simply cannot replicate.

This isn't matter of toning down the encounter to make it fit 5s. Thsi is a process oif eliminating entire emchancis in order to make it fit. Sometimes it can be doen, and other times it can't.

But you cannot design a raid around a multi-tank or multi healer encounter if there is only one of each. You cannot count on two or more palyers havign an approportae toolkit fit here is onyl one of each. You cannot engage in mechanics such as tank swaps or healer swaps or split parties - and no, the harvester in HDM is NOT a split party encounter - if you can only assign a tank and healer to one of those systems.

There is a degree to which you can compensate...but only to a degree and only by modifying the encounter around the simplified group setup. At which point, you are designing a dungeon run. A difficult dungeon run, but still a dungeon run.

On the other hand when talking about old 25 mechanics not in the game because of 10 vs 25 balancing you call those mechanics gimmick mechanics. Fact is warlock tanking was used about 2-3 times in bc.

And it was a gimmick each time. It was a nice twist to be sure. But it was still a gimmick. Nowadays, if you wanted to do a gimmick encounter...you'd simply engage the healer as a tank, to give a possible example. Gimmicks like that can still be done. But if you wanted to move into more specific and situational cases...then yes, you can't have a Demonology Warlock engaging in a healing role because the smaller groups can't guarantee a particular class or spec.

The lets split the raid up in 2 groups mechanic appears 1-2 times per expansion. Making it as much a gimmick as warlock tanking because its used very rarely. So if you can throw away one gimmick you can throw away the other.

With one you are taking advantage of the multiple tanks guaranteed to be present in a multi party grouping.
With the other, you are taking advantage of the possibility a certain class/spec will be available and designing it so they must be there.

You can say they are both gimmicks, but one involves the known and guaranteed presence of a role, the other requires you to structure your raid around that exact spec whether its available to you or not. More to the point, 10s and 25s balancing doesn't forbid such gimmick encounters in either case. Neither does moving to 5s. Moving to 5s simply renders certain mechanics impossible to handle.

Again if blizzard schould decide to make 5 man raids they would just do it and say to people these are now raids, and thats just the way it is.

They call the 5 man raids dungeons and design them appropriately around 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS. Like raids, they through in a few gimmick fights every now and again, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single 5 man group of that compostion to handle all the raid mechanics available to the raid designer. It is not impossible for 10s to handle those of a 25 because 10s still includes multiples tanks and multiple healers so you can end up with the same mechanics of tank swaps, split parties and so on and design accordingly. The encounter mechanics have to be changed to allow 5s to handle it. If you split the party then you have to arrange for a DPS to heal and/or tank. You have to change the mechanics so the adds or extra boss or whatever either aren't there or are irrelevant.

While I disagree that the raid model is quite good...

When you get down to it...the only issues people have with the current model are its effect on 25s and the shared lockout which prevents some peopel raidin the same raid multiple times a week even if the want to. The former a problem with the community as people simply don't want to lead the raids and so don't form them, while the latter is sidestepped by the simple expedient of forming an alt; if that isn't acceptable then MoP will apparently have more end game content to fill in the time these people now have available while LFR allows them to do their second runs for gear - now, instead of doing 10s and 25s, you do 10s OR 25, and the LFR.

EJL

[Deleted]

No, it can't. You don't meet your own criteria #1 in that poll, as it is not a representative cluster of all MMO-C readers. It represents only the subset of forum-goers who visit Raids & Dungeons.

Since you re in the mods team you have not only an idea about the total traffic, but also about the % of subbed visitors that do not visit or don't post in this subforum at all .
Would you care to share some data on the matter?
I honestly believe that the result this poll provided is quite solid. And I did not vote for 15 man raids :s.

I have stated my opinion many times, there is not a perfect raid size. But given the condition that the game is right now, and the prospect of yet another expansion with crappy Cata version of 10/25, makes me believe that out of the 12 specific size options that I offered as options in that poll, at least 3 of the single sizes and 3 of the dual sizes would have been significantly better than what we have today!
I would definitely not suggest 10 man single and 25 man single, plus the 10/25. The reasons are pretty obvious in my honest opinion.

Which....here....they all do. It is very hard to craft a neutral question and you'd likely be surprised at how even simple phrasing can be leading.

This is, however, not an issue of Blizzards creation, nor is it actually Blizzards responsibility to address. It is a problem with the community, with the players themselves. It is not a problem with the raid model....which, while imperfect, is still quite good and better than what was there before...but with those who form the raid group.

Of the players who do prefer 25s, few really like it enough to actually form and run a raid. ***THAT*** is the real problem. Arguments over extra rewards that aren't...indeed can't...happen or which mode is easier and how are simple distractions.

Carefully selected words of wisdom, clearly proving the truth.

...

And some interesting discussions from 2010 (!!!) proving that people are not stupid to go for Blizzards “innocent” and “democratic” statements of “equality” and "choice".

One for 15 man raids for Cataclysm (!!!)

http://forums.wowgrunt.com/thread.ph...&id=2973250971

One from elitist jerks, theorycrafting about the need of 25 being EASIER than 10 to compensate for being infinately harder to organize, the sideffect of such a thing, but also about the future of 25 man raids in the new expansion.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t98783-c...finements/p12/

And one from official blizzard forums (eu) with people predicting the future and the reasons of why this will happen (25s dying), while some other people are still daydreaming and come to share their words of wisdom with the public:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900641163

That Khul is a very cool guy.
It was before the RIFT between 10 and 25 man raids grew too deep.
The guy actually is stating he likes both, as the majority of the player base did!!!

But...
He posted a very insightful post about the future and got the same answer that thousands of others got after he asked the original question in eu forums. SILENCE.

“So I am asking as honestly as I can, what are Blizzard doing to make 25 man raids more appealing to the average wow player, because from what I can tell, the writing is very much on the wall for 25 man raids. Unless there is some additional benefit to doing 25 man raids, I feel they may very soon be a thing of the past.”

Date 21-11-2010

The rest now is history...

[Wilderness]

Since you re in the mods team you have not only an idea about the total traffic, but also about the % of subbed visitors that do not visit or don't post in this subforum at all .
Would you care to share some data on the matter?
I honestly believe that the result this poll provided is quite solid. And I did not vote for 15 man raids :s.

I have stated my opinion many times, there is not a perfect raid size. But given the condition that the game is right now, and the prospect of yet another expansion with crappy Cata version of 10/25, makes me believe that out of the 12 specific size options that I offered as options in that poll, at least 3 of the single sizes and 3 of the dual sizes would have been significantly better than what we have today!
I would definitely not suggest 10 man single and 25 man single, plus the 10/25. The reasons are pretty obvious in my honest opinion.

If I had access to that data it certainly wouldn't be public information. But I do not - I think you overestimate what us mere regular mods have access to

From a raiding standpoint the best solution would be to pick a single raid size (I happen to think 15s would be a decent way to go but the actual size isn't as important as only have 1). They could then design encounters exactly for the intended size, make mechanics that worked specifically for that size, and not have to worry about balancing how it will work with multiple sizes.

But I also think that making that decision to drop to a single raid size would be a bad business decision. As much as people complain about one way or the other, or being forced into 10s and unable to enjoy 25s, the fact that both exist is better for subscription numbers then if they moved to a single size.

[Donthealme]

When you get down to it...the only issues people have with the current model are its effect on 25s and the shared lockout which prevents some peopel raidin the same raid multiple times a week even if the want to. The former a problem with the community as people simply don't want to lead the raids and so don't form them, while the latter is sidestepped by the simple expedient of forming an alt; if that isn't acceptable then MoP will apparently have more end game content to fill in the time these people now have available while LFR allows them to do their second runs for gear - now, instead of doing 10s and 25s, you do 10s OR 25, and the LFR.

EJL

Where do you get your data from? No the problem that people have is how based off human nature is has split the community. Most do not care about anything but equality and due to this both sides will always find ways to fight over that when balance has been an issue from day 1 no matter what anyone says there are reasons that they aren't(and this goes for both raid sizes that have the problem on certain encounters). Even saying well most encounters are balanced isn't fair to either.

Lets look at T11
Al'akir- Easily much easier on 10 man
Cho'gall- Easier on 10 man if you had a decent number of raid cool downs(otherwise balanced)
Sinestra- Was much more difficult on 10 man
Nefarian- IF you didn't have a great comp for this fight, it was much more difficult on 10 man(fairly balanced if you had good rng and raid comp)

So if you look at the 4 "end" bosses of the tier it's overall balanced....but shouldn't they all be? I mean why was Alakir so much harder on 25 that a lot of guilds never messed with it and just killed it on 10 man twice a week? Why was 10 man Sinestra significantly harder?

That is why the problem persists, there is no way at all to completely balance two raid sizes, get them close? Yes you can, and that is what Blizzard seems okay with. So the 10 vs 25 man will continue and that means the community will continue to deteriorate.

[Talen]

Where do you get your data from? No the problem that people have is how based off human nature is has split the community.

No...I don't see that at all. There is a small subset of people who are upset at various changes...and there always will be given WoWs size. Most players I know are fairly happy just to raid. Size isn't that important to many. Its simply one factor amongst many which a player considers before choosing which size to raid with. Compared to some of the spats I've seen over other issues, the rivalries between classes and other little disagreements, this issue of 10s vs 25s is fairly minor.

What most players want is to play the game and have fun. There are several ways within this game to do so.
What most raiders want is to raid and many aren't overly concerned about the format. They want to get the gear, see the content and finish the game. 10s and LFR gives them this and they'll accept that so long as the difference in equality and fairness isn't too great.

You're seeing a dispute within the community that I personally do not view as that serious and which is rooted in the difficulties facing 25s. So long as 10s and 25s are reasonably balanced, and reasonably fair....most players , most raiders won't care. They want the content, they want the gear, they want the ending.

That is why the problem persists, there is no way at all to completely balance two raid sizes, get them close? Yes you can, and that is what Blizzard seems okay with. So the 10 vs 25 man will continue and that means the community will continue to deteriorate.

Thats because you seek perfection. The aim isn't perfect balance. Thats going to be impossible. It's reasonable balance. Reasonable equality. Equality that is equal within an acceptable degree of tolerance. Blizzard have sometimes failed, but overall...IMO...they've succeeded. And, as you say, Blizzard also seem to be OK with this.

No...the issue with 25s is that Blizzards model works within the raid system but it doesn't acount for events outside that controlled environment because it can't. As a result, it doesn't address the difficulties 25s have forming a raid which leaves those players who really love the 25 man format out in the cold. They don't like 10s, but don't want to do the work in forming a new 25 man themselves. This goes against Blizzards claim of players raiding with the format they prefer so they naturally feel put upon. Blizzards model doesn't work for them so it is a total failure.

I don't feel that way. I like the 25 man format but I'm not against raiding 10 mans. I'd prefer a single raid size....as the dual model involves compromises in design that affect raid quality....but given that Blizzard has set up the dual format, there are strong reasons not to go down that single raid size path. Its not too late or impossible to change, but it would involve immesnse disruption and QQ from everyone.

EJL

[Fingerbox]

There seems to be a large number of people who desire to raid 25 man dungeons, and do not want to see that raid format die.
Find each other in game and make a 25 man guild.

Also, people said 25 man raids would die in cata when it was discovered that the rewards for each version were the same. Guess what, they didn't.
Most serious progression guilds are still 25, and most people in the raiding community consider 25 to be the proper means to high end progression.
Some wont even consider 10 man world firsts over 25.