ArenaNet has made something special!

[DrakeWurrum]

Grabbing allies takes time.

No, it won't. Because I won't have to sit there going "LF tank/healz!"

I'll be sitting there for all of 5-10 minutes, just going "LF4M!" with the number shrinking until the group is full, and then I will go run the dungeon. There'll be plenty of people to find for the content. Even in WoW, I can still find randoms in LFG for old dungeons while leveling, on fairly short queues.

The only thing LFD would do is automate the "LF4M" part. Which I'm not against - it's just that group-finding would not be any faster with it.

[hatsune]

An optimistic view. One I am cynical enough based on past experience to avoid sharing.

Assuming that the content is vaguely popular enough that people are interested in doing it.

Prob of smooth run where recuritment is <10min = x (where x <100%)
Prob of smooth run where no party member quits = y (where y < 100%)
Prob of smooth run where any party member that quits is replaced within 10min = z (where z <100%)

You'll roll your RNG luck on this depending on the popularity of content, time of day and server population. However a inter realm LFD gives the following.

Prob of smooth run where recuritment is <10min = 100% (probability of instant queue exists as there are no class roles)
Prob of smooth run where no party member quits = irrelevant as replacement is instant
Prob of smooth run where any party member that quits is replaced within 10min = irrelevant as replacement is instant

[DrakeWurrum]

An optimistic view. One I am cynical enough based on past experience to avoid sharing.

You have no past experience with this. Your past experience included role-dependent instances.

The probability of a "smooth" run is going to be better, imo, than in other games, simply due to the nature of the combat system and the lack of dedicated roles. They're not "easy" by any stretch, but I expect more runs than not to go well.

[hatsune]

The only thing LFD would do is automate the "LF4M" part. Which I'm not against - it's just that group-finding would not be any faster with it.

The probability of a "smooth" run is going to be better, imo, than in other games, simply due to the nature of the combat system and the lack of dedicated roles. They're not "easy" by any stretch, but I expect more runs than not to go well

I can fully agree with your 2nd quote if you agree to retract your first.

[valliant13]

But, WoW isn't even an amazing game anymore. It's not even mediocre, or decent, it's just bad. Of course, my opinion. Huge drop in subs are pretty telling too.

is it 2014 already?

[Sylvanie]

An optimistic view. One I am cynical enough based on past experience to avoid sharing.

Have you ever played an MMO without the holy trinity model? I have, and my experience has been that it's really not a problem to fill a group for puggable content if you don't have to worry about having tanks or healers.

But let me elaborate more.

In GW2, we have a bit of an inverted "endgame" where the puggable content is raid-sized (dynamic events) and the organized content is for small groups (explorable dungeons). We do not need a group finder for the former, because there is no instancing for dynamic events, there are no constraints on group composition, and teleporting is built into the game proper (via waypoints).

For explorable dungeons, you probably do not want to pug them anymore than you want to pug normal mode raids in WoW. This may change in the future if and when players get more comfortable with them and the mechanics, at which point they may get treated more like story mode dungeons. For which, see below. Until then, a group of five is much easier to organize than a group of 10-25 players.

Story mode dungeons are puggable, and arguably the one type of content that could benefit from a group finder. At the same time, without the holy trinity, groups are much easier to fill, you can make do even if you lose a member for a bit, so there's much less of a need for a group finder than in WoW or Rift.

Against that, we need to balance the costs of group finder tools: Non-consensual grouping has a lot of downsides, the biggest of which is anonymity and the resulting toxic atmosphere. Even in the best of cases, such groups lack cohesion and a common goal (which in any WoW dungeon with optional bosses results in problems whether or not to kill them).

You can reasonably argue that you personally prefer the advantages provided by a group finder (primarily not having to worry about forming groups) over the disadvantages; however, there are also plenty of people who disagree.

[mag07]

Recruitment: Grabbing allies takes time. Not everyone might be interested in the content you propose even with the gear/level/role problems removed. The time taken to form a group should be faster than if these problems existed but depending on your RNG luck, it could take a while.

Breakups: Your allies have to afk/gtg/dinner/troll/rage/quit etc in mid run. You no longer have a full team. You now need to repeat recruitment while hoping that the rest of your team is patient enough to wait for a replacement. Recruitment takes time, the longer it takes, the higher chance your current party members will balk and leave too.

In short, the amount of time spent not doing content (spamming chat and such) as well as the probability of a failrun due to lack of members is significantly higher when no LFD exists. High to the point where I normally want nothing to do with it. I accepted in my 1 month of SWTOR that coop PVE content was going to be a bonus to the questing, nothing more. Because it is that frustrating when things go wrong.

Three words - community, guild, friends - the essence of an mmo for many, something that is almost gone from WoW after we were 'blessed' with all the automation tools. Back in the early days of WoW, all through BC, you had to work on you realm rep, once you were known to be a decent lad/girl, finding a group was a matter of 5 mins. You did not randomly afk on your group, you did not vanish without saying bye, you did not pointlessly insult others simply cos you weren't in a good mood, you did not ninja loot that wasn't meant for you - if you did any of the above, you very shortly would've found yourself unable to join any party. That encouraged people to cooperate, work together to achieve whatever the goal was. That is the idea behind GW2, cooperation not competition, creating a stronger sense of community than what is currently out there.

If you really have no time to spare to find a group, chances are you won't to finish the dungeon. If you have no patience to find a group, people might rather not have you along as first thing that comes to mind is 'he/she will quit on first wipe'. It's not that big of an effort to find company, even easier so in a game without clear role separation. You can quite happily do other things while lurking around for others that would like to do an instance just as you do. Alternatively, join a guild - solves most of your instancing issues. This is an MMO, a social game, if you do not like socializing, there are other options out there.

And last, there is no LFG, there is however a mechanic in place to aid grouping - you can flag yourself to express your interest in a dungeon - other players can see it, making it fairly easy to send a whisper and pop an invite and get going.

[Shostie]

I would like more competition too, but in todays standards i dont expect the game to last long. Why? No subscription fee hence updates/patches are not going to be top quality.

Another reason would simply be that i find the animations and pvp very clunky. They arnt smooth at all.

And to top it off, 1 month after release will be the release of MoP.

Umm, what? Whether or not ArenaNet follows through on their promises to update the game remains to be seen. But subscriptions are no guarantee of content updates. Look no further than WoW for the last year for evidence of that. You know who really benefits from subscription fees? Stockholders and investors.

[Ausr]

As if Blizzard didn't have a store where you could buy in game items. The difference is, with Guild Wars 2's gem store, you can buy the gems used in the store with in game gold instead of paying cash.

Obviously you didn't think this through, but it wasn't particularly funny, just kind of boring.

Ah yes, harmless mounts/pets in the store compared to vanity, experience boosts, additional character slots, bank tabs, etc.

Obviously I did think this through but your reply to me wasn't particularly funny and boring to read.


To another poster: I know the difference between NCSoft and Arena.net. I'm saying, NCSoft games (whether they're made by them or they help produce) have a store.

[Mechanibull]

Ah yes, harmless mounts/pets in the store compared to vanity, experience boosts, additional character slots, bank tabs, etc.

Obviously I did think this through but your reply to me wasn't particularly funny and boring to read.

Mounts/ pets = vanity items, but in GW2, I can buy my vanity items with in game gold.

Exp boosts can be found in game, and they really aren't that relevant because of the flow of the game. A very large part of the community would tell you they wouldn't even use them. There are NO items in the shop that will give you any real advantage over anyone who does not buy them.

And character slots and bank tabs are optional. If I decide I do want them, I have $180 a year freed up from not having to pay WoW's sub fees.

As to whether you thinking things through was obvious, that's very much debatable.

[rhinomatic]

Ah yes, harmless mounts/pets in the store compared to vanity, experience boosts, additional character slots, bank tabs, etc.

So you can either pay a monthly sub fee and pay cash for stuff you don't need, or you can not pay a monthly sub fee and pay cash for stuff you don't need.

Seems like there's a pretty clear winner here.

[DrakeWurrum]

I can fully agree with your 2nd quote if you agree to retract your first.

There's no reason to retract the first. An automated LFD in GW2 would do little more than grab four random people. Without LFD, what we have right now is a list of people who are marked as LFG (seriously, it's a tab right there in the friends list). What I plan to do is just grab four random people.
The result is that there is no real difference.

Maybe I'll spend an extra 30 seconds or so going "Ew, no, his name makes me gag" or "Oh god, I remember him, no dice." but... well, that's not very much time at all.

[Zem]

Ah yes, harmless mounts/pets in the store compared to vanity, experience boosts, additional character slots, bank tabs, etc.

Obviously I did think this through but your reply to me wasn't particularly funny and boring to read.


To another poster: I know the difference between NCSoft and Arena.net. I'm saying, NCSoft games (whether they're made by them or they help produce) have a store.

Ah yes this remind me of the WoW "premium" account where you have to pay extra in order to play with your friends.

[Ausr]

So you can either pay a monthly sub fee and pay cash for stuff you don't need, or you can not pay a monthly sub fee and pay cash for stuff you don't need.

Seems like there's a pretty clear winner here.

I'm not arguing the benefits/negatives of having a store. However, I found the one poster's thoughts that WoW nickel and dimes you but not GW2 funny.

Ah yes this remind me of the WoW "premium" account where you have to pay extra in order to play with your friends.

Battle.net? That's free, you know. If not that, are you saying you need to pay to server transfers? Making a new character and getting to 85 is pretty quick these days is free as well.

I hope I don't come across as anti-GW2 here. I did get the game for free and I will play it on my downtime. I'd just rate it as a 6.5/10 on my game scale and will make it a side game to play.

[DrakeWurrum]

Ah yes, harmless mounts/pets in the store compared to vanity, experience boosts, additional character slots, bank tabs, etc.

Obviously I did think this through but your reply to me wasn't particularly funny and boring to read.

What's wrong with convenience items? Most notably, convenience items that I can fully purchase using in-game gold?

The stuff we get baseline is just as good as what we get in WoW. It's really just the kind of thing people who play GW2 a lot would need to get. I mean, you don't even store crafting mats in your actual bank, since you have a whole tab dedicated to collectibles.

[Shostie]

They cost exactly what they need forproviding a quality content. What is more important, this paltry sum allows you to feel yourself as a white man, experience the game at its fullest, without limitations, to enjoy voice acting and not subtitles, to have localization instead of English, to use living customer support instead of NCSoft engrish mail bots.

What?

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/02/29/bl...e-development/

They fired 600 customer service employees, so much for that "living customer support".

---------- Post added 2012-08-13 at 01:43 PM ----------

Three words - community, guild, friends - the essence of an mmo for many, something that is almost gone from WoW after we were 'blessed' with all the automation tools. Back in the early days of WoW, all through BC, you had to work on you realm rep, once you were known to be a decent lad/girl, finding a group was a matter of 5 mins. You did not randomly afk on your group, you did not vanish without saying bye, you did not pointlessly insult others simply cos you weren't in a good mood, you did not ninja loot that wasn't meant for you - if you did any of the above, you very shortly would've found yourself unable to join any party. That encouraged people to cooperate, work together to achieve whatever the goal was. That is the idea behind GW2, cooperation not competition, creating a stronger sense of community than what is currently out there.

If you really have no time to spare to find a group, chances are you won't to finish the dungeon. If you have no patience to find a group, people might rather not have you along as first thing that comes to mind is 'he/she will quit on first wipe'. It's not that big of an effort to find company, even easier so in a game without clear role separation. You can quite happily do other things while lurking around for others that would like to do an instance just as you do. Alternatively, join a guild - solves most of your instancing issues. This is an MMO, a social game, if you do not like socializing, there are other options out there.

And last, there is no LFG, there is however a mechanic in place to aid grouping - you can flag yourself to express your interest in a dungeon - other players can see it, making it fairly easy to send a whisper and pop an invite and get going.

+1000

The dungeon finder is convenient, but comes at a substantial cost. That cost is not easily quantified. I hope ArenaNet sticks to their guns on this and doesn't add an automatic LFD tool like WoW has. And if they do add one, I hope the rewards for using it are significantly smaller than the rewards for completing a dungeon NOT using it.

[Myah]

Before I played in the last beta I was like meh, its overhyped.

Then I started looking for a free beta key as I wanted to test before buying. And my mind was also blown away.

Im now literally counting down the days to play it!

[DrakeWurrum]

Three words - community, guild, friends - the essence of an mmo for many, something that is almost gone from WoW after we were 'blessed' with all the automation tools. Back in the early days of WoW, all through BC, you had to work on you realm rep, once you were known to be a decent lad/girl, finding a group was a matter of 5 mins. You did not randomly afk on your group, you did not vanish without saying bye, you did not pointlessly insult others simply cos you weren't in a good mood, you did not ninja loot that wasn't meant for you - if you did any of the above, you very shortly would've found yourself unable to join any party. That encouraged people to cooperate, work together to achieve whatever the goal was. That is the idea behind GW2, cooperation not competition, creating a stronger sense of community than what is currently out there.

Encouraging people to cooperate simply out of fear of not being able to find a group is not what I call good community-building and cooperative gameplay.

It was not the automated tool that started breaking down the community in WoW, it was the way it was implemented, and the very systems that make up WoW which work against community building.

Back in TBC, "cooperating" with other people took far too much time and effort for the sake of a simple dungeon run, when I should have just been able to form a group and run in. People take things far too seriously and just need to relax and have some fun.
Hoping that GW2 does not turn out the way TBC was, very much so. People act like it was so much better before LFD, but it really wasn't.

[DarthTenore]

Quite dufferent for me. I made a norn and I was pretty bored at first. Got hooked up only after playing quite few hours. Norn starting locations pretty bad, but game grows on you later on. Was playing human in latest couple stress tests and gotta say humans' starting locations and town is much better. But norns much better themselves overall so I'm sticking with them anyway.

The Norm starting area may not be as active as all the other races but have you seen Snow covered lands bursting with activity?

OT, Glad you had the opportunity to play even if it was an hour. This is by far the best PC game I've played in a long time and that's based on stress Tests where things can go wrong and it did. Did it hamper my enjoyment? No. I stuck to the norn race and made several different classes. Then I find out that there are different stories for you personal story and that itself branches out depending on you choices later on. Each story may merge together at some point not sure but that's still impressive. I felt that choices mattered more in GW2 than in SWTOR. At least The choices you made provided a different outcome rather than making a good and evil choice.

Even though I've done the quests/Events/Heart areas several times, it never felt stale. Either an event happened or it didn't. There were a few players around or tons doing the events. The more there were the longer it took thanks to the scaling that Arenanet implemented.

Over all solid game and I have yet to play PVP, Dungeons, Or WvW

[Collected]

I wish i had seen this before the first time I played.

Agreed. I think that is going to be the biggest challenge with GW2.. getting out of the same old habits we've got into. Like when in the video he suggested going to the other starter areas, I thought 'Oh great, so I have to do starter quest chains etc' .. and I had to slap myself and remind myself no, that's how WoW does things. GW2 is different.

Brilliant video.