Modern Feminism - What's the deal?

[Deleted]

A Gish Gallop is when you throw out a constant stream of nonsense and don't actually defend any of it. You essentially just bury your opponent under so much BS he can't possibly wade through it all.

There is 6 of you talking at the same time, one twisting words, one hyperboling, one making jumps... It's not easy you know?

[Woeful]

Okay.

Modern Feminism. What's left to fight for?

Abortion rights -- Got them.
Equal pay for equal work -- Laws are in place. Make sure they are enforced.
What else?

Child Custody laws favor woman over men -- The law no, generally the law takes "the best interest of the child" as its lode star. Fact, most women fight for their kids, men less likely.

Want to be treated the same? Making that one up. Not sure what it means, and I am not sure that this isn't a coop. Woman want to be treated with dignity and respect, but they still want to be treated as women.

Rape. No arguments. Women should not be raped, all Republican rhetoric aside.

That should get us started.

[Deleted]

Okay.

Modern Feminism. What's left to fight for?

Abortion rights -- Got them.
Equal pay for equal work -- Laws are in place. Make sure they are enforced.
What else?

Child Custody laws favor woman over men -- The law no, generally the law takes "the best interest of the child" as its lode star. Fact, most women fight for their kids, men less likely.

Want to be treated the same? Making that one up. Not sure what it means, and I am not sure that this isn't a coop. Woman want to be treated with dignity and respect, but they still want to be treated as women.

Rape. No arguments. Women should not be raped, all Republican rhetoric aside.

That should get us started.

You kind of killed it to begin with though.
What's left to fight for?

Quotas?

[Deleted]

I'm still waiting for a reponse by Djalil.. :/

[Deleted]

I'm still waiting for a reponse by Djalil.. :/

Sorry I got overwhelmed. You can ask again if you want. Not sure people would appreciate though.

[Cybran]

You kind of killed it to begin with though.
What's left to fight for?

Ever since they won the battle for the schools boys have been slipping out of the educational system. Soon they wont need quotas.

[starlord]

Okay.

Modern Feminism. What's left to fight for?

Abortion rights -- Got them.

tenuously. many states have done their best to reduce their availability, and its under constant attack.

Equal pay for equal work -- Laws are in place. Make sure they are enforced.

also under attack, some have been repealed.

What else?

Child Custody laws favor woman over men -- The law no, generally the law takes "the best interest of the child" as its lode star. Fact, most women fight for their kids, men less likely.

sure.

Want to be treated the same? Making that one up. Not sure what it means, and I am not sure that this isn't a coop. Woman want to be treated with dignity and respect, but they still want to be treated as women.

Rape. No arguments. Women should not be raped, all Republican rhetoric aside.

its concerning that that is even a topic of debate among people like state governors...

That should get us started.

lets not forget being denied birth control insurance coverage.

id say theres plenty to fight for.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 03:10 PM ----------

Ever since they won the battle for the schools boys have been slipping out of the educational system. Soon they wont need quotas.

could you specify what feminist policies have caused boys to slip out of the school system?

[Woeful]

I'm not keen on the idea of women getting to decide if men have to pay 18 years for a child that they want aborted. Women should keep their authority but not force men to pay. You are being disingenuous here.

This actually sets up an interesting argument legally. But lets do the steps.

1. Man's right to choose. How? Contract? Declaration? Go to Court on a Declaratory Judgment?

2. If a man were to come up with a way to say "She needs an abortion." How does he prove its his kid. I mean. Sorry in this society it might be yours, or it might not. No easy way to tell while its in the womb.

3. Once you have made the legal declaration of How and proved you are the father, then the legal obligation to enforce child support would have to be overturned. The father's right to [fill in the blank] supercedes the states interest in ensuring that both biological parents care for the child.

4. Okay. Good Luck

Better option. Don't have sex with someone unless you are ready for that person to become pregnant. I mean seriously, If its a choice between my tax dollars going to support your kid or you paying for your kids, I am choosing you every single time. That's a public policy choice that all states have to make. Sorry if its an inconvenience. If you really don't want to pay for the support sue for custody of the child. Prove you are the better parent. Make her pay.

Seriously there are no easy answers, but saying "She should get an abortion" is tantamount to her saying you, if you father a child and fail to pay support, snip snip vasectomy.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 11:16 PM ----------

tenuously. many states have done their best to reduce their availability, and its under constant attack.

also under attack, some have been repealed.

sure.
its concerning that that is even a topic of debate among people like state governors...

lets not forget being denied birth control insurance coverage.

id say theres plenty to fight for.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 03:10 PM ----------


could you specify what feminist policies have caused boys to slip out of the school system?

Yep trying to get the discussion back on track.

[Spectral]

I'm not keen on the idea of women getting to decide if men have to pay 18 years for a child that they want aborted. Women should keep their authority but not force men to pay. You are being disingenuous here.

I didn't know that quoting someone was disingenuous. That's like this Newt Gingrich moment, I guess.

[Woeful]

I would like to here a cogent argument on the insurance and contraception debate. I mean really.

Contraception has been legal for the better part of 50 years.

Insurance is a contract. A sucky adherence contract but still a contract.

I guess this goes back to Obama care, and the religious backlash from the idea of sex and contraception. Still the idea needs to be fleshed out. Why is it a great idea? I am asking this seriously. I am not trolling. Why is it a great idea that's on the level of women's equality ect.

[Cybran]

could you specify what feminist policies have caused boys to slip out of the school system?

They push their way in to education and push boys out. They have changed the rating of tests and the way most courses are taught, but since they can't change Math and Science boys still hang on to them.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 01:30 AM ----------

This actually sets up an interesting argument legally. But lets do the steps.

Why does it matter. If the really wants the child she should raise it without him. He signs a contract that he wants nothing to do with her and the kid and poof.

[starlord]

They push their way in to education and push boys out. They have changed the rating of tests and the way most courses are taught, but since they can't change Math and Science boys still hang on to them.

i see, so they changed things like literature and art to become subjective, and that caused boys to fail?
not sure if i understand.

[Woeful]

i see, so they changed things like literature and art to become subjective, and that caused boys to fail?
not sure if i understand.

I don't understand it either. I'm a guy and probably not what you would call a feminist.

[Cybran]

i see, so they changed things like literature and art to become subjective, and that caused boys to fail?
not sure if i understand.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/eli...es-study-finds

The answer lies in the way teachers, who are statistically mostly women, evaluate students without reference to objective test scores. Boys are regularly graded well below their actual academic performance.

Eliminating the factor of “non-cognitive skills…almost eliminates the estimated gender gap in reading grades,” Cornwell found. He said he found it “surprising” that although boys out-perform girls on math and science test scores, girls out-perform boys on teacher-assigned grades.

Boys are falling significantly behind in grades, “despite performing as least as well as girls on math tests, and significantly better on science tests.”

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-29010690.html

The formal nature of the classroom leaving a significant number of boys feeling bored, frustrated and impacting negatively on their concentration.

Many more examples exist and the ratio in most highschools in USA and Europe shows that the system already is baised against them. When you know that posters like Zangfrei are teachers the future becomes every grimmer.

[Deleted]

Sorry I got overwhelmed. You can ask again if you want. Not sure people would appreciate though.

In the world where ridicolous questions aren't asked. You should come visit me.

What ridiculous questions have been asked?

So, what it's gonna be?

[starlord]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/eli...es-study-finds
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-29010690.html



Many more examples exist and the ratio in most highschools in USA and Europe shows that the system already is baised against them. When you know that posters like Zangfrei are teachers the future becomes every grimmer.

so basically its saying that all (female) teachers are biased against boys, blacks, and hispanics, and that has caused them to fall behind.

right.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 04:06 PM ----------

heres the thing; boys scores never "suddenly went down". girls caught up and passed them
http://faculty.smu.edu/millimet/clas...%20et%20al.pdf

you could argue that boys are at a disadvantage in schools, but not that its because of a "feminist conspiracy"....

[Frozen Death Knight]

so basically its saying that all (female) teachers are biased against boys, blacks, and hispanics, and that has caused them to fall behind.

right.

That kind of misses the point about how teachers handle stuff in schools nowadays compared to decades ago, since it has definitely changed a lot. From personal experience, I can think of instances where I was at a disadvantage in getting the highest grades simply because of how some teachers did not emphasize test scores that much at all, despite me doing really well at them. It's not really that alien of a concept that girls and boys handle knowledge in different ways, since that is definitely the case.

Gender differences do affect grades and it should definitely be looked at considering that we need the best men and women for important positions in society, especially within science.

[Kasierith]

you could argue that boys are at a disadvantage in schools, but not that its because of a "feminist conspiracy"....

Well, there is conjecture among some neuroscientists that because boys and girls mature at different rates, with girls maturing more quickly than boys in terms of cognitive function focused on abstract concepts, girls are more apt at schoolwork in the earliest years of schooling whereas boys on average are not quite ready at that point which sets them at odds with school for years to come. The only policy that that is really related to, though, is age when first going to school which really isn't connected to the feminism movement.

[starlord]

That kind of misses the point about how teachers handle stuff in schools nowadays compared to decades ago, since it has definitely changed a lot. From personal experience, I can think of instances where I was at a disadvantage in getting the highest grades simply because of how some teachers did not emphasize test scores that much at all, despite me doing really well at them. It's not really that alien of a concept that girls and boys handle knowledge in different ways, since that is definitely the case.

Gender differences do affect grades and it should definitely be looked at considering that we need the best men and women for important positions in society, especially within science.

most studies point to boys just being a little slower to mature. boys have never decreased in scores, girls just made huge gains after starting so low.

everybody interacts with teachers differently, i had a teacher that failed most people in the classes on an important essay simply because we had a "wrong" interpretation...

[Frozen Death Knight]

most studies point to boys just being a little slower to mature. boys have never decreased in scores, girls just made huge gains after starting so low.

everybody interacts with teachers differently, i had a teacher that failed most people in the classes on an important essay simply because we had a "wrong" interpretation...

That does not explain why more boys are dropping out from school than ever before. It even happens in my country Sweden and we don't have the same issues like the US has with its education. Saying that they never decreased would also imply the same participant levels as before, but that is not actually the case.

Well, I am not saying my example covers all the bases, but it still is peculiar that it is okay to put disadvantages on grading someone even if that person proves to know the subject. For instance, I excelled at English in school, but because I was born as a lisper and I stuttered from time to time, I had issues with holding speeches as well as speaking in regular conversations. Despite having performed the best scores in everything related to writing, reading, etc., I still did not get the highest grade because my vocal issues messed up one English speech test we had at the end of that year, which happened to be the last year before moving on to higher education levels. Mind you that it was the only time we did do such a test and I was pretty much among the highest achievers in English test scores and essays in my class and very likely the whole school, which is no small feat.

In contrast, my younger sister, who is also really good at English, does not have the same issues with speech as I did at that age. She, however, has some downfalls in the areas I excelled at, but she still has better chances of getting the highest possible grade in English when she graduates in a few months than I did because she has perks that tend to more often than not lie in the female oriented part of our species.

I am not saying that I was heavily mistreated, since that is not really true. Still, what my example does show is that gender roles do matter when grading students, and it can affect someone that can still achieve quite well despite having disadvantages beyond one's own control.