What will become of the Argent Crusade?

[Florena]

What gets me is that the Forsaken are all about 'free will' and you can choose to join them or not when raised... unless you were killed in battle, then they have no problem raising you up and taking advantage of your confused state in the heat of battle to make you kill your former friends, and THEN give you the choice.

[SoundOfGuns]

There is no logic behind the Argent Crusade joining a side. That probably has been mentioned before and i missed it here, since i doubt this did not appear to others before, but Tirion Fordrings Mindset was always the most sane one in all of Azeroth, saying that to him there is no difference between Orcs and Men. Both can be equaly honest and equaly rotten. Also the Argent Crusade DEMANDED from Thrall and Varian to keep it civil and leave the War out of the Argent Tournement. Now joining a side would pretty much ruin what Tirion stands for... and as high as Tirion holds Honor, there is no doubt that he would never let this happen. They are neutral, and they will stay neutral..

Unless Blizzard pulls up some retarded twist which is not that unlikely if we are honest.

Anyhow i think they will stay up there in Hearthglen and try to regenerate the plagued lands. And unless somebody is stupid enough to attack them, i doubt they will get themselfs any more involved into the Horde/Alliance-War.

[Northem]

The Queen Calia in person shall kill the egotistical, permissive and traitor of Tirion Fordring and all who dare stand in her way! She will be the new and ultimate Ashbringer!

Lordaeron will regain its former glory at any price!

[Zulkhan]

What gets me is that the Forsaken are all about 'free will' and you can choose to join them or not when raised... unless you were killed in battle, then they have no problem raising you up and taking advantage of your confused state in the heat of battle to make you kill your former friends, and THEN give you the choice.

The question about the "free will" is a calculated farce, at least partially. Yeah the Forsaken raised in this way, normally, have "free will" and can go wherever they want and do whatever they desire, but seriously, how many choices a raised undead individual effectively have? Not many, those that decide to not join the Forsaken will be alone, desperate, isolated, with no purpose in their "unlife" and no one caring about them; they can only end bad, probably trying to suicide themselves, and probably failing since dealing a fatal blow to an undead corpse is not an easy effort.

Sylvanas steps upon the concept of "free will" the very moment she raises corpses, because that is an act against the will of the dead. When these ones are "ressurected" the Forsaken will take care of those who lost their minds in the process, but leaving to "enjoy" the undead state anyone else that maintained sanity, leaving to them the "choice" of becoming a renegade in an utter hostile world, or decide to leave their past behind (like the other Forsaken did) and swear their loyalty to the one that offer a place and a guide in a faction of individuals that suffered a similar fate and fight together for preserve themselves.
This can be hardly defined a "free" choice in the true sense of the word.

About those raised in the battlefield and sent to kill their former people, it's merely a question of extreme actions in extreme situations: the Forsaken, with the war against Gilneas, understood that they cannot survive times of total war like the other races, due to their inability to procreate (and so their numbers, in fact, never raised during all this time, quite the opposite). In times of peace this is not a problem since the Forsaken are almost immortal, but in times of war, where casualities become consistent, both their existance and their chances of victory in a bloody conflict are in serious question; for this they resort to raise corpses in the battlefield, for immediatily try to compensate casualities in battle, what will happen to them when the war is over (and possibily won) is another matter.

Yeah, this steps against the "free will" of the dead, but as I said before, the concept itself is almost and already fallacy, so doesn't really matter in the end. Heck, by the 5.4 sound files you even realize that if it wasn't for Lor'themar firmly opposing her, Sylvanas wouldn't have any problem in turning into undead soldiers not only the Alliance members, but the fallen Blood Elves aswell.

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She will be the new and ultimate Ashbringer!
!

It's King Terenas's son that has been trained to the paladin ways, not King Terenas's daughter. For what we knew about her, she was just the princess, with no skill or ability in anything, be it steel or magic.

[Northem]

It's King Terenas's son that has been trained to the paladin ways, not King Terenas's daughter. For what we knew about her, she was just the princess, with no skill or ability in anything, be it steel or magic.

Perhaps by seeing everything what happened to her brother, she decided to train to avenge her father and restore the honor to the Menethil dynasty.

[Verdugo]

Perhaps by seeing everything what happened to her brother, she decided to train to avenge her father and restore the honor to the Menethil dynasty.

... Or was instead consumed by ghoul that used to be dung farmer in life.

[Zulkhan]

Perhaps by seeing everything what happened to her brother, she decided to train to avenge her father and restore the honor to the Menethil dynasty.

There was a NPC in Theramore that has been speculated to be Calia Menethil http://www.wowpedia.org/Calia_Hastings and seems to be a Rogue, a SI7 agent precisely.

It is theorized by some that Calia Hastings is the former princess of Lordaeron, Calia Menethil. This would mean she married someone named Hastings, assumed a new surname in exile, or took her mother's surname.

More hints to this theory can be found by comparing their last names. The coinciding letters of Hastings and Menethil, h, t, i and n, form the word "hint". Also, the two names each have eight letters.

After the annihilation of Theramore, no hint has been given about her fate, so it's impossible to say if she died there or survived the attack.

Anyway until now this has been nothing more than an audacious and unconfirmed speculation, for what we should imagine apart this, like Verdugo said, Calia could be good and dead, gutted by a bunch of ghouls, but there is no undeniable evidence of this either.

[Northem]

... Or was instead consumed by ghoul that used to be dung farmer in life.

yes ... in fact precisely that farmer always looked lasciviously to the princess ...

There was a NPC in Theramore that has been speculated to be Calia Menethil http://www.wowpedia.org/Calia_Hastings and seems to be a Rogue, a SI7 agent precisely.



After the annihilation of Theramore, no hint has been given about her fate, so it's impossible to say if she died there or survived the attack.

Anyway until now this has been nothing more than an audacious and unconfirmed speculation, for what we should imagine apart this, like Verdugo said, Calia could be good and dead, gutted by a bunch of ghouls, but there is no undeniable evidence of this either.

I never saw the "Calia Hastings" hypothesis consistent at all ...

But either way, the fact that the heir to the human kingdom par excellence may be still alive somewhere waiting for the right time to reclaim her kingdom is very interesting (from a narrative point of view). If she is dead ... another missed opportunity ...

[Deleted]

He didn't say Undercity, he said Northern Lordaeron. The horde equivalent to what he said would be "The Horde needs a foothold in Southern Eastern Kingdoms, as it pretty much is under Alliance Control."

Back on topic: I'd love to see a quest chain or scenario that shows what their organisation is up to now

stonard

/10char

[Arrashi]

yes ... in fact precisely that farmer always looked lasciviously to the princess ...



I never saw the "Calia Hastings" hypothesis consistent at all ...

But either way, the fact that the heir to the human kingdom par excellence may be still alive somewhere waiting for the right time to reclaim her kingdom is very interesting (from a narrative point of view). If she is dead ... another missed opportunity ...

Im not sure if you are sugesting necrophilia between them or not.

[Aquamonkey]

The question about the "free will" is a calculated farce, at least partially. Yeah the Forsaken raised in this way, normally, have "free will" and can go wherever they want and do whatever they desire, but seriously, how many choices a raised undead individual effectively have? Not many, those that decide to not join the Forsaken will be alone, desperate, isolated, with no purpose in their "unlife" and no one caring about them; they can only end bad, probably trying to suicide themselves, and probably failing since dealing a fatal blow to an undead corpse is not an easy effort.

Sylvanas steps upon the concept of "free will" the very moment she raises corpses, because that is an act against the will of the dead. When these ones are "ressurected" the Forsaken will take care of those who lost their minds in the process, but leaving to "enjoy" the undead state anyone else that maintained sanity, leaving to them the "choice" of becoming a renegade in an utter hostile world, or decide to leave their past behind (like the other Forsaken did) and swear their loyalty to the one that offer a place and a guide in a faction of individuals that suffered a similar fate and fight together for preserve themselves.
This can be hardly defined a "free" choice in the true sense of the word.

Iconic justice then isn't it? They suffer the same isolation and ostracizing due to the hatred and prejudice that they held against the undead when they were alive.

"Welcome back to the realm of the living. With the blessing and power from the Dark Lady, I have freed you from death's grip. You are no slave, <name>. You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here. If you choose to serve the Dark Lady Sylvanas, I recommend you speak with Undertaker Mordo."

Undead can suicide quite easily by jumping into a fire. "Undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli."

Sylvanas steps upon the concept of "free will" the very moment she raises corpses, because that is an act against the will of the dead.

Because those people chose to die in the first place? Pretty sure killing people is stepping on people's free will too.

If they don't like being undead, they can go back.

About those raised in the battlefield and sent to kill their former people, it's merely a question of extreme actions in extreme situations: the Forsaken, with the war against Gilneas, understood that they cannot survive times of total war like the other races, due to their inability to procreate (and so their numbers, in fact, never raised during all this time, quite the opposite). In times of peace this is not a problem since the Forsaken are almost immortal, but in times of war, where casualities become consistent, both their existance and their chances of victory in a bloody conflict are in serious question; for this they resort to raise corpses in the battlefield, for immediatily try to compensate casualities in battle, what will happen to them when the war is over (and possibily won) is another matter.

Raising undead doesn't require fresh corpses. PC Forsaken and the reinforcements used for Gilneas came from Deathknell. That place hasn't been used as a graveyard since before the 3rd War.

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What gets me is that the Forsaken are all about 'free will' and you can choose to join them or not when raised... unless you were killed in battle, then they have no problem raising you up and taking advantage of your confused state in the heat of battle to make you kill your former friends, and THEN give you the choice.

No different than DK's raising ghouls or popping army. Alliance don't have a problem with their DKs doing this. And those are actually slaves who never get a choice after the battle is over.

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Such hypocrisy. The Alliance and Horde allow DKs to raise undead SLAVES, but Sylvanas is becoming a Lich Queen because she exploits their temporary insanity even though she gives them a choice afterwards.

The Alliance and Horde allow DKs to spread disease and desecrate the land, but Sylvanas is evil because she uses Blight (deployed in exactly the same manner as any other siege weapon).

They complain that Sylvanas treads on free will, yet Bolvar (the actual Lich King) still has the Scourge mindslaved to his will. Bolvar doesn't release them from bondage so they can make their own decisions. The very least he can do is return them to the afterlife.

[Zulkhan]

Iconic justice then isn't it? They suffer the same isolation and ostracizing due to the hatred and prejudice that they held against the undead when they were alive.

Yeah, can be seen in this way, but to be honest no Forsaken care about this. They just need corpses ready to fight, the most they gather in that process, the better. Sylvanas is eager to raise up everything for reinforce her ranks, not just the annoying and bigot humans.

Because those people chose to die in the first place? Pretty sure killing people is stepping on people's free will too.

If they don't like being undead, they can go back.

When you fight a war, indeed you chose to put your life in extreme danger, so death is accountable, and in a sense, dying is a free choice. But I'm pretty sure that no one took in account or wanted to become an undead after death fell upon them, no one.

Yeah, they can "go back" by improvising huge bonfires, but choosing between joining the Forsaken, becoming a lone and hated renegade or suicide myself can be hardly defined as a bunch of reasonable alternatives for which I'm "free" to chose, the shock alone of being ressurected as an undead is enough traumatic and something I never wanted in the first place, and being forced to do something like killing myself for "return" to death's realm is like an additional self-punishment, for undo a process I never wanted to be part of by the beginning.

Raising undead doesn't require fresh corpses. PC Forsaken and the reinforcements used for Gilneas came from Deathknell. That place hasn't been used as a graveyard since before the 3rd War.

Indeed, but no matter how many corpses you turn into loyal soldiers before the beginning of a huge conflict, you cannot predict how many casualities you will suffer, and in which direction the tide of the battle could go, in favor or against you; but the Scourge taught that raising the corpses of your enemies in improvised cannon fodder is a delicious way for ensure a victory and compensate any kind of huge loss in terms of Forsaken soldiers, or even shield themselves.

They don't do that like the Scourge, that desired to turn every living thing into undead because the Lich King wanted to "wash over the world" and eradicate the living by the planet, but indeed Sylvanas seems to make a calculated use of it when the tide of the battle is turning against her, or the battle in question requires every possible means to be won.

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Such hypocrisy. The Alliance and Horde allow DKs to raise undead SLAVES, but Sylvanas is becoming a Lich Queen because she exploits their temporary insanity even though she gives them a choice afterwards.

The undead the Death Knights raise are ghouls, and common ghouls have zero intelligence. Even those who showed to have "free will" are barely able to speak, and when they do that, they just talk of delicious brains; they have a brain too damaged to be considered sentient individuals in the first place.

The Forsaken instead were just enslaved and mind-controlled by the Lich King, but when they became free, they fully retained their intelligence and personality, even if the latter a little twisted by the traumatic transistion from living to dead and dead to undead.

[Aquamonkey]

The undead the Death Knights raise are ghouls, and common ghouls have zero intelligence. Even those who showed to have "free will" are barely able to speak, and when they do that, they just talk of delicious brains; they have a brain too damaged to be considered sentient individuals in the first place.

The Forsaken instead were just enslaved and mind-controlloed by the Lich King, but when they became free, they fully retained their intelligence and their personality, even if the latter a little twisted by the traumatic transistion from living to dead and dead to undead.

DK's raising ghouls and Sylvanas raising undead during combat are both exploiting the mental infirmity of those being raised. And not everyone raised by Sylvanas retains their intelligence and personality. Some stay insane and feral just like ghouls.

[Zulkhan]

DK's raising ghouls and Sylvanas raising undead during combat are both exploiting the mental infirmity of those being raised. And not everyone raised by Sylvanas retains their intelligence and personality. Some stay insane and feral just like ghouls.

But you can be pretty sure that no matter how many ghouls you raise, they will never retain intelligence, no matter the case: the best thing that every ghoul can do after expending its usefulness is die again.

Instead the dead raised by the Val'kyr have a good chance of "calming down" and get back their senses when the mess is over, not everyone, but most of them yes, since, unlike the Death Knight's spell that summon always and only ghouls, the Val'kyr, most of the time, make reborn individuals in typical "Forsaken style", with a minority of them losing their minds in the process.

[Verdugo]

But you can be pretty sure that no matter how many ghouls you raise, they will never retain intelligence, no matter the case: the best thing that every ghoul can do after expending its usefulness is die again.

So raising people as free willed citizens of Undercity is evil, but raising them as gibbering retarded monstrosities is ok...

[Zulkhan]

So raising people as free willed citizens of Undercity is evil, but raising them as gibbering retarded monstrosities is ok...

Where I said that is evil? I'm simply saying that the concept of "free will" is not so genuine as someone like to intend. Ghouls don't have a brain for make decisions or even desiring them, and they easily die by themselves when their time is over, barely understanding or having the awareness of what happened.

The ones raised by the Val'kyr instead, for the most part, have a personality, a functioning brain, have feelings like fear, desperation, hatred and have full awareness of what fucking happened to them. And these individuals that suddenly found themselves from death to undeath in a pretty shocking way, have to "chose". Yeah, chose to become forgotten hermits that will probably become insane, suicide themselves in a bonfire just after being joyfully resurrected as undead, or just find a purpose in their new condition by joining people like them and fight for their leader.

You don't need to be a genius for get that 90% of them will see the third option as the only reasonable one.

In few words, they are free-willed individuals gifted with the delusion of having a choice. And moral conceptions apart, it's honestly a brilliant way for ensure, most of the time, the free-willed loyalty of individuals that had nothing to do with your faction before.

[Lumineus]

Are ghouls even "people" to speak of? Sure, a Forsaken is a person, a Death Knight is a person, but a ghoul is more like a construct that just happens to made from a corpse. It might be distasteful to raise someone's body as a mindless automaton, but it's something else entirely to rip their soul out of the afterlife and forcibly reincarnate them as a dessicated, half rotten zombie.

[Aquamonkey]

Where I said that is evil? I'm simply saying that the concept of "free will" is not so genuine as someone like to intend. Ghouls don't have a brain for make decisions or even desiring them, and they easily die by themselves when their time is over, barely understanding or having the awareness of what happened.

The ones raised by the Val'kyr instead, for the most part, have a personality, a functioning brain, have feelings like fear, desperation, hatred and have full awareness of what fucking happened to them. And these individuals that suddenly found themselves from death to undeath in a pretty shocking way, have to "chose". Yeah, chose to become forgotten hermits that will probably become insane, suicide themselves in a bonfire just after being joyfully resurrected as undead, or just find a purpose in their new condition by joining people like them and fight for their leader. You don't need to be a genius for see that 90% of them will see the third option as the only reasonable one.

In few words, they are free-willed individuals gifted with the delusion of having a choice. And moral conceptions apart, it's honestly a brilliant way for ensure, most of the time, the free-willed loyalty of individuals that had nothing to do with your faction before.

It's still a choice. "Welcome back to the realm of the living. With the blessing and power from the Dark Lady, I have freed you from death's grip. You are no slave, <name>. You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here. If you choose to serve the Dark Lady Sylvanas, I recommend you speak with Undertaker Mordo."

Just because OUTSIDE FORCES make going off on their own unsafe, doesn't make it any less of a choice. Not joining the Alliance is an unsafe choice, but nobody says they only have the delusion of choice in joining it. Plenty of undead have chosen not to join the Forsaken or have left. There are other factions besides the Forsaken that welcome undead.

[Skronk]

i would imagine they will be watching over northrend, at least from a distance. The current LK may be Bolvar but that does not mean when he awakes from his sleep he will be the same man he was when he took on the crown, power corrupts n all that

[Verdugo]

Are ghouls even "people" to speak of? Sure, a Forsaken is a person, a Death Knight is a person, but a ghoul is more like a construct that just happens to made from a corpse. It might be distasteful to raise someone's body as a mindless automaton, but it's something else entirely to rip their soul out of the afterlife and forcibly reincarnate them as a dessicated, half rotten zombie.

Souls are imprisoned in ghouls.