Monk talents suck [constructive]

[Hyve]

As Mistweaver, I'm going to disagree, but I understand where you're coming from.

The initial tier I feel is based on the final tier, if you take Chi Torpedo it's almost always better to the extra Roll that is granted on the final tier. Concerning Chi Wave, Chi Burst, and Zen Sphere, I quite like changing through them depending on the fight.

Fights were we're stacked up nice a tightly (on 25 Man), it's quite nice to throw down a Chi Burst and get some nice raid healing, but sadly I feel the cooldown is a little too long. Chi Wave is mathematically superior in most cases, so that's your go to talent, but Zen Sphere has a nice AoE Explosion and emergency heal mechanic, so don't neglect that either.

With the Crowd Controls, they're a very nice selection. I quite like them, and I do change them based on what the fight will require of me.

With the final tier, Rushing Jade Wind is actually a really nice talent when it comes to healing. It allows you to keep up a AoE Heal while being able to do your normal Healing "Rotation". Xuen is a really nice Healing Cooldown, the amount it heals, and the damage it does is often ignored by most Mistweavers, but popping Xuen at the start of Malkorok Heroic can add a lot of Healing into the raid for the shield(s).

Overall, I think the talents themselves are fine, they just need to tune them a bit better. As I said, Chi Burst on a slightly lower cooldown would be really nice, any maybe they could do something with Chi Torpedo so you don't feel like you need to take the +1 Roll Talent from the first tier.

As for the defensive tier, it's amazing. A free self-dispel with -90% magic damage taken is just amazing, and the Dampening Harm is really helpful in a lot of fights. As with the Mid-Tier (+1 Chi Talents (Ascension, I believe)), I've always chosen Ascension for the added 1 Chi. I think having 5 makes it so much smoother to control things such as Renewing Mist & Uplift, but that's just my personal playstyle. I know plenty of other Monks who've chosen the other talents because they suit them.

[Deleted]

Ring of peace is the go to talent for any type of add fight. Stunning adds makes swingtimers reset making them burst, bursts kills tanks.

[Saberstrike]

Things you're all forgetting is that high end heroic raiding isn't all there is, and while ring of peace may indeed be nice for an aoe disarm / silence on a bunch of real nasty raid adds who'll burst the tank down after a stun, outside of that the talent is really not that great in outdoor pve, pvp or anything else.

Considering monks' mediocre state throughout the expansion, it's really unlikely / unreliable for your tanks to expect a ring of peace. It's nice to have but I doubt there's a fight where it will be absolutely necessary and incomparable to other things your raid can bring that may actually do it better (priests / locks with aoe fear, etc.)

[Nakanai]

Considering monks' mediocre state throughout the expansion

You've clearly been playing a different expansion than the rest of us.

[Nikkaszal]

I'm going to preface this with a simple statement here:

You seem to be of the opinion that there must be a "best" build for various specs that's a one-size-fits-all, does-everything, leave-it-for-every-fight.

This is what Tomes Of The Clear Mind are for, and why they're dirt cheap. You switch talents constantly depending on what you're doing right now.

Plainly and simply, most of our talents feel like one-sided underwhelming garbage that should either be reworked completely or given to a certain spec, so with the expansion looming near I figured I'd share my thoughts on how things should be.

Tier 1: The first two are fine. Tiger's lust should be made baseline for ww/brew and replaced with chi torpedo, as it feels like it'll fit better in that tier as a leveling / roll-utility talent. It's real underwhelming for level 90 tier.

It's a movement utility tier. Sometimes you want to be Rolling a lot, and you pick Celerity. Sometimes you want a passive self-movement buff that's up a lot, and you pick Momentum. Sometimes you need the raid to move really quickly, and you pick Tiger's Lust. All three have had their uses during the expansion.

Tier 2: Chi Wave should once again be made baseline for ww/brew as it simply provides too much for mistweavers, and neither other spec in their right mind would pick anything else. Move rushing jade wind in it's place and make it heal for all specs as it will fit with the aoe healing + damage toolkit better.

You ever see Chi Burst as a Brewmaster? It's nuts. Time it so it hits the clumped raid just after big raid AoE - say, on Sha Of Pride - and you've just done about 200k healing on each person.
Some people I know swear by Zen Sphere as a mini defensive cooldown, especially on fights where tank damage is very high and raid damage is low (eg Garrosh, Paragons with Kil'ruk up).

Tier 3 is okay-ish. I'd argue chi brew should be baseline for all specs with 1 charge that restores 4 chi on a 1 minute cooldown. I really don't know what to replace it with though.

It originally did restore 4 Chi. It became clunky to use because you had to be at exactly zero Chi to use it, which meant you'd often end up either wasting potential Chi by overcapping or not using it on cooldown, which also made it less Chi-efficient than the other two.

Tier 4. Ring of peace is just bad. Replace it with a new talent I made up called Blackout: Your Tiger Palm applies a 10% slow that stacks up to 5 times on a target and lasts 10 seconds. Starting with 3 stacks, using blackout kick on that target will cause a blackout and stun the target for 3 seconds for 3 stacks, 4 seconds for 4 and 5 seconds for 5. The stun has a 20 second internal cooldown and will have an on-screen power aura / buff when it's ready.

Ring Of Peace is amazing for reducing damage against anything with a weapon (which is a lot this tier - Galakras waves, with the added bonus of making casters follow you into the NPC's AoE, Garrosh adds, hell even the Dark Shaman BOSSES can be disarmed and not stunned.

The other two talents can stay, although I'd argue charging ox wave should be targetable.

This would give it all the problems that the original Chi Burst had - instead of being able to reflexively turn and fire it in a line and KNOW you're going to hit everything, you have to stop and fish out an appropriate target somewhere near the back. Why would you want to make it harder to use?

Tier 5. Boy, what the f' were they thinking with this one... Okay, here we go: Healing elixirs baseline for ww / brew, Dampen Harm cooldown down to 1 minute and made baseline for brews, diffuse magic made baseline for all specs. My reasoning for this is whenever I take either elixirs or diffuse magic I always feel like I should've taken the other one, and Dampen Harm is once again simply bad for anything but tanking. Tanking monks could use a shield block.

Again... you switch between these for different fights. What's the most threatening spike for a tank, magic or physical? Pick Diffuse/Dampen respectively. For MW and WW, is spiky magic damage hitting the raid? Pick Diffuse. Are there more regular spikes which hurt a lot? Dampen will mitigate THREE of them for you. Regular raid damage intake? Healing Elixirs.

Simple.

Tier 6, 90 talents. Invoke Xuen is the only real excellent 90 talent that feels big, which is why I haven't touched it and moved other two lower into the tree.

Again, each has a separate purpose (are you sensing a pattern here?) Xuen is for single-target or Cleave fights. RJW is better for anything with sustained AoE (and is also BRILLIANT for snap AoE aggro for a BrM because you can ROLL while the damage aura is on you, vastly extending your immediate aggro-ing range). Chi Torpedo is... for healers or something, I dunno, I've never used it myself.

[Saberstrike]

You seem to be of the opinion that there must be a "best" build for various specs that's a one-size-fits-all, does-everything, leave-it-for-every-fight.

Yes and no.

My opinion is talents should be flavor / utility / playstyle choices rather than min/max ones, in that you should be able to pick one not because that next fight needs you to deal with a debuff but because you like how the talent functions. You should be able to do that without feeling like you gimped yourself or your group with the choice.

So for instance, almost all talents are great for mistweaver but you're a dope if you take chi torpedo as windwalker. I don't disagree that all talents have their uses, I just think those uses are too streamlined and reactionary, rather than allowing you freedom to pick one over the other freely.

[The Madgod]

I'm going to preface this with a simple statement here:

You seem to be of the opinion that there must be a "best" build for various specs that's a one-size-fits-all, does-everything, leave-it-for-every-fight.

This is what Tomes Of The Clear Mind are for, and why they're dirt cheap. You switch talents constantly depending on what you're doing right now.

Going to have to agree here.

The monk talent set is very well-made. If a talent isn't chosen because of it being optimal for a certain fight, it's chosen because of your personal playstyle. There might need to be a bit of tweaking to some of them but by and large I really don't think an overhaul is necessary.

Honestly I think that the monk talent set is what Blizzard had in mind for the talent trees. You can't be 100% flavor and still have meaningful talents, in my honest opinion. There will always be a min-maxable setup for a particular boss. That having been said, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Talents should be meaningful and you should consider your talent setup for every boss if you are a higher-end raider. The point of the Mists talent overhaul was to make talent choices something you thought about, not something that you just pick and forget. I think that going for a more personal-taste design would lean more towards that, even though it does make you think more than the previous iteration of talents.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

considering the fact that Monks have 3 different roles to fill, and then theres different environments (raiding, solo, pvp etc)
I find the monk talents came out quite well. Not saying there's not room for improvement...
All speccs have talents which are a bit better/worse, but the whole picture is quite okey.
I'd say a bit of rework is needed for: Powerstrikes, Zen Sphere, Chi Torpedo.

[Spicycurry]

I was under the impression t hat dampen harm reduced the damage by 50% regardless of whether or not it was physical.

[Kaeth]

I'd say a bit of rework is needed for: Powerstrikes, Zen Sphere, Chi Torpedo.

I agree with your assessment. I believe that, ideally, for any class, each spec should have a choice between two talents in a given tier, if not among all three. It's when one talent is the obvious choice in nearly all situations for a given spec that there's a real problem.

Since the buff to Chi Brew, Power Strikes is the green-haired gnome step child of its tier. Ascension versus Chi Brew is somewhat of a real choice for Windwalkers (while BrM always takes Ascension and MW leans toward Brew); a change to Power Strikes to make it at least more attractive for tanks and possibly healers would be quite welcome. Perhaps take away the clunky "every 20 seconds" mechanic and make it a stacking RPPM proc on (yellow) attack/cast that gives 1 chi after so many stacks and drops a chi sphere next to you if you're already capped. Each stack could optionally grant a small amount of energy/mana.

Zen Sphere. Oh how I wish the numbers on this ability were not so painfully low. Turn this back into a one-target-only ability and give it a serious numbers boost. That's all it really needs. Even the so-called "emergency" heal from Zen Sphere when it detonates early at <35% health is a fraction of a single Chi Wave hit, likely because the heal is AoE. Perhaps its behavior could be changed such that detonating due to low health only heals the target (no AoE) and for three to four times what it does now? Even then, the healing ticks prior to detonation are pathetically weak: its total healing done on average -- not counting the detonation -- is only 38% of Chi Wave (43% if rolled on two targets, exactly on cooldown). I understand that the AoE damage pulses are low because it's a 100% sustainable AoE aura, but the healing component is too weak.

Possible Zen Sphere overhaul idea (might require new tech): since the theme of this tier is AoE damage/healing spells, reduce the target cap to 1, but (possibly in lieu of the passive heal it generates now) let the primary target of the spell leech a percentage of the damage the aura deals as healing (including the detonate). Tuning options include reduced life leech for each target after the first, lower AoE damage cap than the standard 20, removal or reduction of the current HoT effect it causes now. Sounds potentially overpowered in AoE pulls, but the number of possible tuning options for a life leech aura would allow it to be made a compelling but not broken choice.

Chi Torpedo. Wonderful -- especially with Celerity from the level-15 tier -- for 25-man raiding Mistweavers, but not a compelling choice for melee dps or tanking. I can't see how a utility that requires large bursts of movement to heal/damage could be made attractive for a tank outside of a few niche situations, but this talent could certainly be tweaked for a Windwalker somehow. Open to suggestions.

[Darkener]

Yes and no.

My opinion is talents should be flavor / utility / playstyle choices rather than min/max ones, in that you should be able to pick one not because that next fight needs you to deal with a debuff but because you like how the talent functions. You should be able to do that without feeling like you gimped yourself or your group with the choice.

So for instance, almost all talents are great for mistweaver but you're a dope if you take chi torpedo as windwalker. I don't disagree that all talents have their uses, I just think those uses are too streamlined and reactionary, rather than allowing you freedom to pick one over the other freely.

I agree that talents should be fun/playstyle choices. It's fine having one talent that changes based on single target or add fights, or stack vs. spread healing (although I still argue we should be able to do both without switching talents). But having to constantly change several talents and glyphs around every boss to be viable on that fight as a Mistweaver/FW is ridiculous. Carrying bags full of Tomes is not fun. I do think Monk talents could use some fixing.

[Kaeth]

I was under the impression t hat dampen harm reduced the damage by 50% regardless of whether or not it was physical.

It does also reduce magic damage, but Diffuse Magic is generally seen as superior for reducing magic burst because it mitigates magic damage to 1/5 what Dampen Harm does. If a 50% reduction is sufficient to keep you alive long enough to be healed to full before the next blast, and a boss is firing off that huge magic attack multiple times in 45 seconds, Dampen Harm could be superior even for magic damage in that situation. Diffuse Magic also mitigates magical DoT, which will almost never trigger Dampen Harm.

Dampen Harm is more adaptable (physical and magical, longer duration, but weaker reduction), while Diffuse Magic is more powerful and controllable as long as the damage source is magical.

[Edlarel]

I can't believe you just called ring of peace bad...

Agreed. Leveling a second monk with friends, I've decided to spec MW (played the other two on my main). Ring of Peace is the best for trash pulls in a lot of situations. On boss fights, I trade out for something else, but it's back to RoP after.

While I like your structure for these, I do have to disagree with the overall viewpoint. Having now played all three specs in a somewhat serious nature, the monk feels much better balanced than the Deathknight ever did in its first year of existence. It also feels better balanced than some of the existing classes, which Blizzard has on their radar to fix in WoD.

It does also reduce magic damage, but Diffuse Magic is generally seen as superior for reducing magic burst because it mitigates magic damage to 1/5 what Dampen Harm does. If a 50% reduction is sufficient to keep you alive long enough to be healed to full before the next blast, and a boss is firing off that huge magic attack multiple times in 45 seconds, Dampen Harm could be superior even for magic damage in that situation. Diffuse Magic also mitigates magical DoT, which will almost never trigger Dampen Harm.

Dampen Harm is more adaptable (physical and magical, longer duration, but weaker reduction), while Diffuse Magic is more powerful and controllable as long as the damage source is magical.

Keep in mind, also, that having both on a magic-heavy fight is a win-win. Usually the one is sufficient, but being able to alternate and watch how you rotate them (especially as tank) is wonderful.

[Warlord Booty]

I like monk talents more than most other classes I play.

[Kaeth]

Keep in mind, also, that having both on a magic-heavy fight is a win-win. Usually the one is sufficient, but being able to alternate and watch how you rotate them (especially as tank) is wonderful.

You can't have both; they're in the same talent tier. Unless you're commenting on proper use of both abilities if one were to become baseline as suggested by the OP?

[Felade]

Tier 1: It isn't hurting anything. Pretty much the poster boy for personal choice. Do you want a 3rd roll, or a short speed boost after your roll? Tiger's Lust is for PVP or when you need an on demand Sprint. Pick either Celerity or Momentum for 99% of the time, pick Tiger's Lust as needed. Working great. Why does TL need to be baseline when Monks (especially WW) already have a ridiculous amount of mobility?

Tier 2: I will agree that Chi Wave is a bit too good for WW/BM. Chi Burst has its place for MW. Zen Meditation needs attention. But we aren't exactly talking about a game-breaking, or even talent-breaking emergency here.

Tier 3: Power Strikes is the only thing that needs help here. Chi Brew vs. Ascension is a "min/max" vs. "easymode" choice right now, and Ascension isn't that far behind, so unless you're at the bleeding edge, its a viable choice.

Tier 4: The fact that you think RoP is a bad talent shows you don't know what you are talking about. RoP is amazing for proving grounds, PVP, and add fights in raids. The choice between Ox Wave and Leg Sweep is a "min/max" vs. "easymode" choice too, once you learn how to aim Ox wave. Pretty good tier, might need to buff Leg Sweep honestly (as OP as that sounds).

Tier 5: Looks pretty good to me. All three specs alter between Dampen Harm and Diffuse Magic *regularly*. Healing Elixirs needs help, but the other two work great.

Tier 6: This one's working well, although Chi Torpedo is getting to be the odd man out again. Xuen doesn't feel quite as mandatory for WW now that RJW is the AOE king. BM has reasons to pick all 3, as does MW, although (I don't know for sure because I don't raid MW often) RJW might be too good for MW.

Honestly, I don't know what your problem with Monk talents is. There is room for improvement, but there are classes in a lot worse shape than we are, and for the most part, talents are doing what they were intended to do: make sure there isn't just one right build for everything. Most of our talents get used/swapped fairly regularly.

From the player's perspective, the talent system is win/win. Either you have 3 awesome choices, or you have 1 choice you don't have to think about :P Only loss for players might be that sometimes you get some superfluous buttons because you HAVE to have a level 90 talent or whatever (Priest level 90 talents).

Things you're all forgetting is that high end heroic raiding isn't all there is, and while ring of peace may indeed be nice for an aoe disarm / silence on a bunch of real nasty raid adds who'll burst the tank down after a stun, outside of that the talent is really not that great in outdoor pve, pvp or anything else.

Makes a great second interrupt and disarm while leveling. Also, amazing for PVP, which is not high end raiding.

It does also reduce magic damage, but Diffuse Magic is generally seen as superior for reducing magic burst because it mitigates magic damage to 1/5 what Dampen Harm does. If a 50% reduction is sufficient to keep you alive long enough to be healed to full before the next blast, and a boss is firing off that huge magic attack multiple times in 45 seconds, Dampen Harm could be superior even for magic damage in that situation. Diffuse Magic also mitigates magical DoT, which will almost never trigger Dampen Harm.

Dampen Harm is more adaptable (physical and magical, longer duration, but weaker reduction), while Diffuse Magic is more powerful and controllable as long as the damage source is magical.

Rememeber, Diffuse Magic dispels as well as prevents damage, which is all kinds of win in PVP or dispel fights in raids as a DPS or Healer. Also, DPS/Healer monks rarely if ever take physical damage.

It's really easy to look at Monk talents and only consider them for one spec. DH/DM look like tank talents. Don't forget that Monks have DPS and Healer specs.

[Deleted]

considering the fact that Monks have 3 different roles to fill, and then theres different environments (raiding, solo, pvp etc)
I find the monk talents came out quite well. Not saying there's not room for improvement...
All speccs have talents which are a bit better/worse, but the whole picture is quite okey.
I'd say a bit of rework is needed for: Powerstrikes, Zen Sphere, Chi Torpedo.

I'd really like to throw all of T30 in there, if not just for a serious number retuning.

- - - Updated - - -

Tier 6: This one's working well, although Chi Torpedo is getting to be the odd man out again. Xuen doesn't feel quite as mandatory for WW now that RJW is the AOE king. BM has reasons to pick all 3, as does MW, although (I don't know for sure because I don't raid MW often) RJW might be too good for MW.

RJW is really not amazing for Mistweavers at all, if there's one spec it's too good for it's SEF WW cleave.

[brok3nh3lix]

This is incredibly not true. Monk talents are among the most balanced & well-realized in the game, and almost every one is useful for some spec at some not-uncommon point in time.

T15: Want movement speed on yourself? Momentum. Want movement speed on others/utility? Tiger's Lust. Want extra charges for Chi Torpedo? Celerity.
T30: 10man MWer or DPS/tank spec? Chi Wave. 25man MWer? Chi Burst. Want to proc the caster legendary cloak a lot on AoE pulls? Zen Sphere. (ok, this one is lacking somewhat, but the other two choices are both interesting from a MWer point of view.)
T45: Power Strikes is really good for leveling & soloing. Ascension for FWing/BrM. Chi Brew for more standard MWers. I don't know what WWers take. Isn't it gear-dependent?
T60: Ring of Peace is badass for situations where you need silence/disarm instead of stuns (stuns DR with a LOT of abilities). Plus, you can cast it on allies. COW is meh, but useful if you need a ranged stun. Leg Sweep for when you need PBAoE stuns (Heroic Lei Shen says, "hi.")
T75: Healing Elixirs for leveling/soloing. Dampen Harm for when you're taking physical damage, Diffuse Magic for magical. How can you criticize this tier?
T90: This one is kind of weird, the most unthematic of the 6 tiers, but all 3 talents get used by MWers. And BrM and WWers get use out of both Xuen & RJW, depending on the fight.

I personally like COW in some situations over leg sweep. leg sweep is a longer stun with a longer CD as well. COW can stun just as much with correct positioning, and can be used more frequently, which on some fights that 15sec shorter cd can be significant on how often you can stun the thing that needs to be stunned. For instance, its great on galrakas for stopping the bone crushers. ROP is awesome on some fights as well, like garrosh

additionaly, as a BrM, there have been a few times during progression that I have taken things like chi torpedo and celerity (it was especially useful on a few fights in ToT before we had the new RjW), I also have used all 3 heals at various times depending on the fight to help out with healing. If there is burst group healing and the raid is stacked, chi burst can be plain awesome to assist your healers. zen spheres can be useful in some fights since you can throw it on other players, especially when you know they are going to dip low at some point (thok for instance). and when there no general nich, chi wave wave is the default.

T45 is really the only one I don't bounce around too much with and generally stick to ascension, but ive seen plenty of arguments for power strikes, particularly if you are running a low haste build.

healing elixers is used less so, but is pretty decent in proving grounds, not that I would use that as a great gauge of talents though.

[jazzyy]

Problem is you're rarely taking physical damage equal to 20% of your HP unless you're tanking. And if you do regularly take those, halving 3 every 90 seconds doesn't do anything -- unless, again, you're tanking and your healers somehow struggle for 5 seconds in those 90, doing fine otherwise.

Since people need clarification:

DAMPEN HARM WORKS AGAINST MAGIC DAMAGE TOO

I'm the third tank in our raid group for H Dark Shamans. I use Dampen Harm because it halves every 3 casts of Froststorm Bolt (the thing that does about 500k a hit) and it does halve the damage. Honestly just from that post it makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about. Dampen Harm is incredibly broken for fights like H Dark Shamans because she casts Froststorm Bolt A LOT. (Like 7x a minute) and making sure you can mitigate as much damage as possible is essential especially when you hit soft enrage and she starts slapping peoples shit. IDK what spec you play but it's clearly not BrM. Hell I don't even play BrM and I could list hella lot amounts where DH >>>>> Diffuse Magic. Like Nazgrim for one since Execute is a 3M Physical DMG hit, meaning already Damphen Harm beats out every other choice. Or let's think of Corrosive Blast on Immerseus because it would stay up for Split Phase and Reform so you'd negate some Reform damage. Thok's screeches, Siegecrafters Electrostatic Charges, etc. (Note that Damepn Harm doesn't work on Malkorok, for the record).

Dampen Harm is borderline broken and it's also good for DPS in some situations, but DM usually overtakes it. DPS might take DH for fights like Sha because of Swelling Pride at the end because he's casting Swelling Pride which is more than 20% of your health and he is also casting Unleashed every ten seconds which is 330k a hit. Though Diffuse Magic is nice cause it's a self dispel for Mark of Arrogance (though your healers can take care of this, also you wouldnt want to do it cause youd gain pride. Though you shouldn't get much as a DPS)

Dampen Harm is FUCKING AMAZING for sustained, consistent damage that does a lot. Diffuse Magic is amazing for stopping certain raid mechanics (Think Static Shock from Lei Shen). Healing Elixirs can be useful for some fights but I wouldn't touch it. It needs to be changed.

As for everything else. Monk talents are far and beyond some of the better ones this expac. The only ones that lack hard are T90 because they just are very dull. If anything the ONLY thing that should be baseline in our talent tree is Xuen, that's it. It would give us a nice cooldown finally and then they could just buff it as the talent.

[Juliansfist]

Monk talents are overall fine.

Dampen Harm, Diffuse Magic, and Healing Elixirs are all good talents with DH/DM being more raid centric whilst HE being more solo/PvP centric.

I'll be blunt - I pretty much flatly disagree with the OP but I think four significant changes would be beneficial.

1) Chi burst is made baseline for WW only. This would give the WW spec the raid support it needs whilst not providing the WW spec a raid CD. The single target damage increase is negligible; the AE damage increase would be good but also not needed since we are already a strong AE class however having experimented with chi burst it does not put WW AE capability into the OP department. Things to consider - make it healing only and possibly baseline for MW as well.

2) Chi torpedo takes chi burst's position. This way MW does not lose their AE healing capability from chi burst (remembering that chi torpedo + Xuen/RJW/new talent will make up for or exceed the loss of chi burst) and BrM/WW can also spec chi torpedo if more raid support is required. Chi torpedo is taken for its healing potential and so naturally belongs in T30 and is an unnatural fit with T90.

3) Xuen and WW spec - this one is hard as to not turn Xuen into something super strong like shaman's primal elementalist. I tentatively suggest increasing the tiger lightning from 50% of AP to 75% of AP such that Xuen scales better and should bump Xuen's damage from ~5% to ~8% of overall damage against a single target and would make Xuen possibly better than RJW in a 3 target cleave situation (remembering that Xuen is technically a cleave and is used on a single target because of the lacking alternative; also as a cleave ability it SHOULD be better than RJW for 3 targets).

4) Obviously T90 needs a new talent - it should take the form of a single target damage ability to round out T90 (RJW - AE, Xuen - cleave, new talent - single target). I'm thinking something like this - Chi-Ji's Diving Crane Bomb: the monk's fist is infused with the power of Chi-Ji, summoning the diving Celestial on the target causing X damage (talent should be 10-15% of a monk's overall damage). Additionally the monk is blessed with Chi-Ji's healing prowess, increasing healing done by 25% for 4 seconds - 30s CD (note the synergy for a WW baseline chi burst for additional support without the need of a raid CD). This is an idea and as a 30s CD ability it would hit quite hard for it to do 10-15% of our overall damage; too hard really. Perhaps it could act as a reverse execute - dealing less damage as the target's % health decreases.

Regarding charging ox wave - it's a great talent. Yes it's stun up-time is a little below leg sweep but I think that's a good trade off for being able to stun more frequently, at range, and without the hassle of leg sweep being parried.